Just a little side rant (not targetted at one person , more in general) about this and many other treads and what disturbs me (and many) a lot.
What i see (and not only here) is that many don't read the concept, and just post what they like without even thinking of would it fit. This tread soon went back to where we split off from, with expensive SB drivers, waveguides and so. The thing we wanted to avoid. It's like some people here can't stick to a concept of the question, and always need to push their views repeatly to a subject where they don't fit. That does not help the discussion and scares a lot of people away from it. It goes even that far that relevant posts are ignored (i'm not talking about mine necesairly) in favor of those non relevant that does not fit the subject.
Also for some 600€ is little money, but for many in this world it's a lot. So don't think your situation is universal (just an example, i'm not attacking someone here). It's not. This forum is dominated by US citizen, but their situation and so is not universal, keep that in mind. Many don't.
I'm no saying i'm not guilty to that also, but i'm relative sure i'm by far not the worst offender. What i wanted to say is that such behaviour kills a lot of treads and scares a lot of people, here on this forum and (more) on others. That is also why people are hesitant to engage in a build before a design is done.
What i see (and not only here) is that many don't read the concept, and just post what they like without even thinking of would it fit. This tread soon went back to where we split off from, with expensive SB drivers, waveguides and so. The thing we wanted to avoid. It's like some people here can't stick to a concept of the question, and always need to push their views repeatly to a subject where they don't fit. That does not help the discussion and scares a lot of people away from it. It goes even that far that relevant posts are ignored (i'm not talking about mine necesairly) in favor of those non relevant that does not fit the subject.
Also for some 600€ is little money, but for many in this world it's a lot. So don't think your situation is universal (just an example, i'm not attacking someone here). It's not. This forum is dominated by US citizen, but their situation and so is not universal, keep that in mind. Many don't.
I'm no saying i'm not guilty to that also, but i'm relative sure i'm by far not the worst offender. What i wanted to say is that such behaviour kills a lot of treads and scares a lot of people, here on this forum and (more) on others. That is also why people are hesitant to engage in a build before a design is done.
Absolutely not. As you said in the OP, "there are no limits to the topic - which means it is impossible to go off-topic"
if the
Possible monitor/monkey box/coffin group project
ends up with a driver budget of $X, the main differentiation for this project of "budget" could be that price is substantially less. That's pretty much it. But I get the sense that people keep wanting to push the price up. Or maybe we/they are accidentally posting in the wrong thread...
Last edited:
What if we admit the other thread will go to a more expensive design like with more expensive 12", we could cope on the concept of size/cost as the first item ?
If we reduce the choice of what is feasible we fall again in post 411 plus the SLS 10" ?
Total volume of the OSMC inside (don't know if it is netto?) : 72/77 L. (I lost the fil of it at reading the thread)
I believe then according people wish of the final size of the loudspeaker to live with, 60L just for the load of the woofer would be the upper limit. Meaning at the end : +5to 10L for the mid (with wood); around +2 for the internal volume of the 12"; few liters for the bracing. 75 L internal volume to comput the external dimension of the box can be a tragett. Or internal 65 liters if we load with 50 L. Let focus on the size with in mind the woofer not to be more than 100 USD ?
A sealed loudspeaker certainly sounds good till 0.9 Qtc theoricaly, it is more about as Tran said about the F6/F10 number to not be too much boomy in the low end and tigth enough where the program material beginns. Most of the music is in the >40 Hz range, whatever we need room below for several reasons.
Th idea to see if there are some interrest for the more expensive SB34RNX & Peereless XXLS so split in two group that could work here is valid in relation to what happens or not in the other thread imho.
@tktran303 : what is the F6/F10 you consider the upper limit not to go higher, please ? I would say canonical 40 Hz at F6 perhaps ?
I don't know if a poll of interrest could help or not. If at the end there are only 5 builders, we maybe preach in the desert indeed ! Low cost = broader audiance, for sure if the goal is to make a design for many. (broader WW audiance ?)
just my 2 cents thoughs.
If we reduce the choice of what is feasible we fall again in post 411 plus the SLS 10" ?
Total volume of the OSMC inside (don't know if it is netto?) : 72/77 L. (I lost the fil of it at reading the thread)
I believe then according people wish of the final size of the loudspeaker to live with, 60L just for the load of the woofer would be the upper limit. Meaning at the end : +5to 10L for the mid (with wood); around +2 for the internal volume of the 12"; few liters for the bracing. 75 L internal volume to comput the external dimension of the box can be a tragett. Or internal 65 liters if we load with 50 L. Let focus on the size with in mind the woofer not to be more than 100 USD ?
A sealed loudspeaker certainly sounds good till 0.9 Qtc theoricaly, it is more about as Tran said about the F6/F10 number to not be too much boomy in the low end and tigth enough where the program material beginns. Most of the music is in the >40 Hz range, whatever we need room below for several reasons.
Th idea to see if there are some interrest for the more expensive SB34RNX & Peereless XXLS so split in two group that could work here is valid in relation to what happens or not in the other thread imho.
@tktran303 : what is the F6/F10 you consider the upper limit not to go higher, please ? I would say canonical 40 Hz at F6 perhaps ?
I don't know if a poll of interrest could help or not. If at the end there are only 5 builders, we maybe preach in the desert indeed ! Low cost = broader audiance, for sure if the goal is to make a design for many. (broader WW audiance ?)
just my 2 cents thoughs.
I have secret plans for an even cheaper design... But... I like talking about possibilities. I understand the wealth issue. Buying more than maybe one woofer to match up with other drivers I have on hand is more than I really want to do. I do sort of want / need another sub woofer, so if I could buy that driver, AND use it in a 3-way for prototyping that makes it easier for me to part with the cash. If I pushed the H26 too often, I apologize. Any expensive woofers I was pushing for were capable in a smaller box. I lost track of what worked best. I forget details, like something not being available that was mentioned days earlier In fact, I stated so a few pages back. I wasn't trying to push the 12" Peerless woofer, I was trying to see if anyone had already posted something better. If this team design ends up too pricey, look for the possibility of you, and me, and others working on something using the 830668 , or 830669 in a sealed box. I even have this $14 tweeter. https://www.parts-express.com/Peerless-BC25SC06-04-1-Textile-Dome-Tweeter-264-1028?quantity=1, if the H26 is not cheap enough.
@diyiggy
I think F6/F10 need to be considered with SPL.
Over Christmas I had an opportunity to listen to the Devialet “Phantom I 108dB” (previously called Phantom Gold) in mono, and then stereo.
Prior to listening to these I was curious because they’ve been out quite awhile; either lot of marketing about getting down to 20Hz in-room.
At low levels it certainly sounds like that, but when you turn it up just a touch, it starts to exhibit dynamic compression and have a lot of distortion in the bass, which I now understand what those online comments were “So loud you need to turn it down”
No people, this is just bass distortion that you are hearing,
You may have had a similar expierenxe with some of those small Bluetooth speakers the size of hamburger or hotdog, which have no problems going down to 50Hz, in room.
But as soon as you turn it up, they really sound dynamically compressed, and sounds like a small speaker.
Devialet claim the Phantom I F6 is 22Hz; and I wouldn’t disagree there.
But I’d take an F6 of 40Hz that’s cleaner at 100dB.
Eg.
SPL target- continuous max SPL
100Hz to 3KHz in half space; 110dB
F6 -40Hz; 104dB
I went back to have a look at my own system
And then ASR’s measurements of the Neumann’s KH420
and believe this is the target I would set if building a 12 sealed or 10” ported classic 3 way
I think F6/F10 need to be considered with SPL.
Over Christmas I had an opportunity to listen to the Devialet “Phantom I 108dB” (previously called Phantom Gold) in mono, and then stereo.
Prior to listening to these I was curious because they’ve been out quite awhile; either lot of marketing about getting down to 20Hz in-room.
At low levels it certainly sounds like that, but when you turn it up just a touch, it starts to exhibit dynamic compression and have a lot of distortion in the bass, which I now understand what those online comments were “So loud you need to turn it down”
No people, this is just bass distortion that you are hearing,
You may have had a similar expierenxe with some of those small Bluetooth speakers the size of hamburger or hotdog, which have no problems going down to 50Hz, in room.
But as soon as you turn it up, they really sound dynamically compressed, and sounds like a small speaker.
Devialet claim the Phantom I F6 is 22Hz; and I wouldn’t disagree there.
But I’d take an F6 of 40Hz that’s cleaner at 100dB.
Eg.
SPL target- continuous max SPL
100Hz to 3KHz in half space; 110dB
F6 -40Hz; 104dB
I went back to have a look at my own system
And then ASR’s measurements of the Neumann’s KH420
and believe this is the target I would set if building a 12 sealed or 10” ported classic 3 way
The F6 40Hz 104dB looks like a smart, canny target. Not impractical either. Theoretically, the 10" SLS 830668 just makes the 104dB target; the 12" SLS exceeds it.
I trust this is for a single driver, not a stereo pair.
But 110 dB at >1kHz looks beyond reach for most 5" drivers. Maybe at any frequency. I suspect only the most sensitive high power 6 or 6.5" drivers would make it. This limits choices for both mid & tweeter if there's any desire for some directivity smoothness.
Keep in mind that ease of crossover implementation is also a factor at keeping costs down. It all goes out the window if the driver isn't easy to cross and requires more expensive network parts. That can make a big difference. The SB34NRX75-6 is still a bargain considering how easy it is to implement and doesn't require expensive network parts (big inductor) to get acceptably smooth installed FR. The mid choice also opens up through this. A decent 4.5" mid with a higher powerhandling capable 25mm VC diameter would work just fine if the xover wasn't too low... once again, made possible by a decent quality, well behaved and easy to work with woofer. There are a bunch of these which fall in the neighborhood of 90dB/2.8V sensitivity. Tweeters are an even simpler choice and again, there's alot to choose from. Its however the least important driver depending on how smooth the midrange FR is, able to cross a little higher than usual.
I'm also curious about this one.
And to be franck SB34 has been used and re-used. Building something different is also appealing ...
Joseph crow seems to like it:
https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/lavoce-ssf122-50l-12-subwoofer-review
SB12MNRX2-25-4 is an excellent 4.5" mid. Only $60 here in the US but shouldn't be that much more in Europe. It depends on the LP how much power it can deal with in a system. With a decent 12" LF, it could cross comfortably at 300 hz and keep up. Its also smooth higher up without any weird off axis hiccups. 3 - 3.5 k LP isn't a problem for this driver.
5fe125 will get there if not crossed to low. It will distort but it will get there (that woofer will distort as hell doing 104dB at F6=40Hz for that matter).
In a less critical application, a 350 hz LP on the SB34NRX-75-6 is no problem. Most other 12" won't be as clean or composed up to 200 - 250 hz. That allows for a smaller mid with a 25mm VC to keep up. The cost savings is significant.
This is not entirely true. With respect to the SB34NRX it has always been referred to as a more expensive option if two designs were made. It was
I hope that anyone who can spend 600€ or even 200€ on HiFi loudspeakers is thankful for the situation they are in. I'll stop there and not de-rail this thread with lectures on global poverty and hunger.
@diyiggy or anyone else - can you confirm that in Europe you can get the SB34NRX75 for 170€ and that the Peerless XXLS 830845 is significantly more expensive?
For those not aware, Parts Express in the US has sales on most major holidays with 10%, 12% or even 14% off. Madisound (the distributor of SB Acoustics in the US) has pretty limited sales. So, the reason for my question above comes out of Tktran303's earlier post about the Peerless. In the US the SB34NRX is $220 whereas the Peerless is listed for $190 but would be easy to obtain for close to $166. [Similarly, the LaVoce SSF122.50L is listed at $160 but can easily be obtained for $140.]
For those not aware, Parts Express in the US has sales on most major holidays with 10%, 12% or even 14% off. Madisound (the distributor of SB Acoustics in the US) has pretty limited sales. So, the reason for my question above comes out of Tktran303's earlier post about the Peerless. In the US the SB34NRX is $220 whereas the Peerless is listed for $190 but would be easy to obtain for close to $166. [Similarly, the LaVoce SSF122.50L is listed at $160 but can easily be obtained for $140.]
The Peerless 830669 has a 38mm fiberglass former VC. Thats a problem if you want to take advantage of a 12" woofer in a sealed 3 way. I wouldn't go smaller than a 50mm VC, preferably with an Alu former. In a ported box, the Peerless would probably be ok due to airflow and excursion helping to cool it, but its really only suitable for a sealed box. It will start compressing early if played loud, but within xmax. It would likely survive an album's worth of playtime at party SPL, but its right on the edge.
I'm not talking about hunger, but about the fact that 600€ for a lot of working class europeans is a half month salary or more, while in the US and some EU countries it's not that much. So if you say 600€ is the cheap option, they laugh green and bail out. I'm lucky that i'm earning a lot more, but many don't.
The Peerless XXLS 830845 is in all actuality a subwoofer. It won't play as clean up to 250 hz. The Qts is very high for a reasonable size sealed box. Sensitivity is only 86 dB. Thats pathetic for a 12" in a 3 way. That big floppy rubber surround will cause problems, as visible in the impedance curve. If we're talking about a budget solution, for what it costs, it's not worth the money. The SB34NRX75-6 may cost more, but its much more suited to a higher performance 3 way than any of the other mentioned 12".
I believe think we are in agreement that we should proceed with 2 designs, one lower cost version and one more expensive version - with the more expensive version not to exceed $600 or €600 in drivers. I think we are still discussing what woofer is most appropriate for the more expensive version. Then we'll have to see who is willing to build the prototype.
Does anyone object to proceeding with the the Peerless 830669 as the woofer for the less expensive design? I am willing to commit to purchasing a pair, building cabinets, and measuring.
For $75 there are compromises. This driver is much better than the Dayton DC300 with 4mm xmax and needing 78L which.
Does anyone object to proceeding with the the Peerless 830669 as the woofer for the less expensive design? I am willing to commit to purchasing a pair, building cabinets, and measuring.
^If you can recommend a better 12" woofer for $75, now is the time to do so.
For $75 there are compromises. This driver is much better than the Dayton DC300 with 4mm xmax and needing 78L which.
Sometimes its worth saving up a little more for something, especially if its a bargain for what you get.