Forgive me for not having read through the 7 pages in this thread, but when it comes to "audiophile" desktop-speakers, I simly can not go without mentioning this here:
https://wodendesign.com/downloads/Woden-BabyLabs-241018.pdf
And because I'm a sucker for Tang Band-speakers and because @Scottmoose is one cool dude, he even helped be build a baby-lab that fits the Tang Band W4 1320 Si. https://loudspeakerdatabase.com/TangBand/W4-1320SI
Another big argument is the fact that I surely don't have golden ears. A little more details here, a little more sparkle in the highs there, chances are I won't be able to notice it anyhow.
If some DIY-ing get's me close to 80-90%, it's good enough for me.
Another argument against "flat out performance" is the cost of things. I much prefer to work with things that are not that pricey because I know sooner or later things will break (or will be broken). And I'd much rather replace a 100$-chassis than order a new 800$-chassis that takes months to ship.
https://wodendesign.com/downloads/Woden-BabyLabs-241018.pdf
And because I'm a sucker for Tang Band-speakers and because @Scottmoose is one cool dude, he even helped be build a baby-lab that fits the Tang Band W4 1320 Si. https://loudspeakerdatabase.com/TangBand/W4-1320SI
As perceval said, diminishing returns are a big point.
Another big argument is the fact that I surely don't have golden ears. A little more details here, a little more sparkle in the highs there, chances are I won't be able to notice it anyhow.
If some DIY-ing get's me close to 80-90%, it's good enough for me.
Another argument against "flat out performance" is the cost of things. I much prefer to work with things that are not that pricey because I know sooner or later things will break (or will be broken). And I'd much rather replace a 100$-chassis than order a new 800$-chassis that takes months to ship.
I made a MLTL with the W4-1052SD that needed two small notches. It became a hit and one friend never returned them!
He did exchange a foiled surfboard for it in the end. 🙂
He is still sipping whisky in the evening while listening to them.
He did exchange a foiled surfboard for it in the end. 🙂
He is still sipping whisky in the evening while listening to them.
Haha, my minimalist LX series runs from $7 pair (Vifa/Aura in a papercup) to $70 (LXmidi honeycombs etc.) to over $700 in drivers to unobtainium. All of them strive for time- and phase-aligned coherent imaging, flat-response tonality, perfect transcient detail, articulate dynamic linearity, and communicative musicality -- within the simple laws of acoustics. Goal for each is to reproduce as close as possible small-ensemble acoustic instruments and vocals live concert front row. After dozens of experiments I can say IME cost has little relation to sound quality, often an inverse relation -- so not a matter of diminishing returns but negative returns. My two best PrimeRadiant Axia and micor55LX each cost ~$150 total. I think even that $25 12" GRS (which I've not used) XOed minimally with a $10 car tweeter bouncing off of convex dustcap, in acoustic-principle should be of greater fidelity than a fullrange or multi-way speaker of common mass-market design regardless of price....
Do you have a link to the wrap you used? Audacious choice, but I like the result!
Cheers
Simon
Don Highend made a reflex loaded high pass filtered fullrange system with Visaton 8cm driver SL87FE called elVis
https://www.donhighend.de/?page_id=10183
https://www.donhighend.de/?page_id=10183
@phase
Don Highend made a LS3/5a alike two way box called Alice
Its ready made design with wavecor drivers
https://www.donhighend.de/?page_id=10452
Don Highend made a LS3/5a alike two way box called Alice
Its ready made design with wavecor drivers
https://www.donhighend.de/?page_id=10452
Attachments
These would be the ultimate desktop speaker.
We were asked by the BBC to emulate the sound of LS3/5a in an even smaller powered speaker to be powered off the 24V available in some BBC mixing desks. For this we were loaned one of the BBC's reference standards. This was MUCH better than the many LS3/5a versions we had looked at over the years.
The best commercial LS3/5a versions were the last ones made by KEF which were very different in construction, xover bla bla from the original but sounded the same.
The reason for this was the BBC originally used a B110 which wasn't quite in the middle of the production spread. So most of the licensed versions had wonky sound. The BBC had their black list of good & poor LS3/5a suppliers. But all BBC versions were rigorously selected and compared to the originals both with measurements and listening tests.
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My "Nest Desk" system meets this spec IMO ~ though I don't give up bass. It's built of 4" Fostex FE108NS drivers in Ikea bamboo salad bowls (ported & stuffed) supported by an 11" Blanda serving bowl subwoofer carrying a 6.5" Tang Band WS-22536 driver driven by an external 100w class AB plate amp. Yeah, that's a bamboo dog bowl holder carrying the sub - DIY baby. I recently updated the electronics from NAD class D and Woo Audio Fireflies for headphones to a Black Ice FX10H tube amp and a Denefrips Enyo 15th R2R DAC. I did roll the amp up to a matched quad of Tung-Sol 7189s and I did a "DAC-off" among Denefrips, Schiit, and Black Ice before choosing the Enyo. Killer near field sound, with some thump. I didn't scrimp on the monitor, a 42" 4K/HDR LG OLED on a monitor arm. Works for lots of workspace, or killer desktop concerts... that's the amazing Anna Moss on screen.
It could be effort instead of price, as @wchang proved with years of tinkering. I have no desk space for up-firing speakers and that's the only reason I am not going this way, I would.
I have only 2 months experience of speaker building but at least I can say - don't build a square box to begin with. Side walls must not be parallel, even more the baffle must not be parallel with back wall. The baffle must not be flat. All walls must be 3-layers with glue in between. All walls must be reinforced with bracing or at least wooden planks. Use something better than MDF.
Don't overstuff polyfill, polyfill is evil and if it's needed it means the cabinet itself is faulty. Use absorbers at the walls. Think about internal reflections and where a standing wave can create a resonance. Make the cabinet heavy.
Do the baffle compensation circuit, even with those full ranges. Do everything you can to minimize the driver excursion, especially with those full ranges because the Doppler effect is killing the quality. Use quality parts in XO. Solder the wires to the drivers, don't use clamps.
Play the room to your advantage. If your desktop is facing the wall plan the shape the way that baffle step is compensated with wall reflection.
Something else? My very limited knowledge is almost exhausted.
I have only 2 months experience of speaker building but at least I can say - don't build a square box to begin with. Side walls must not be parallel, even more the baffle must not be parallel with back wall. The baffle must not be flat. All walls must be 3-layers with glue in between. All walls must be reinforced with bracing or at least wooden planks. Use something better than MDF.
Don't overstuff polyfill, polyfill is evil and if it's needed it means the cabinet itself is faulty. Use absorbers at the walls. Think about internal reflections and where a standing wave can create a resonance. Make the cabinet heavy.
Do the baffle compensation circuit, even with those full ranges. Do everything you can to minimize the driver excursion, especially with those full ranges because the Doppler effect is killing the quality. Use quality parts in XO. Solder the wires to the drivers, don't use clamps.
Play the room to your advantage. If your desktop is facing the wall plan the shape the way that baffle step is compensated with wall reflection.
Something else? My very limited knowledge is almost exhausted.
He he...
That's no wrap! well, actually, it is, kinda....
That is real stone called onyx. It's cut down to 6mm thick, and glued to 6mm plywood.
So, I guess it could be viewed as a wrap, as it is not only a solid piece of stone.
I have access to one of the very few factories in the world that can cut panels of stone down to 6mm.
With so much optimization into the system -- do you cover the bare, hard desktop with fleece or something to absorb HF, as you listened well off-axis to the "linear array" of reflection from below? I'm sure your arrangement works; just trying to understand the subtlety of "driver on the reflective mirror-surface" pros and cons. Thanks.
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I thought the same until we were loaned one by the BBC. Most commercial LS 3/5a's weren't very good but ones accepted into BBC service were much better.
They are good speakers though I wouldn't normally design speakers like that. There's a particular edge on the 'BBC sound' I can hear .. especially on speech. One of their acceptance tests was a speech recording done in an anechoic with AKG C414. which IIRC, found its way into an early ITU test CD.
This isn't the usual midrange suckout which people associate with British speakers of the period.
You need to listen to an ex-BBC LS 3/5a or maybe one of the last KEF made ones.
I've put this on the table. No effect on SQ but immediately improved the imaging. I presume the affected frequencies are exactly responsible for imaging.
I also think it's essential that it's Van Gogh. A cubist might not work.
I also think it's essential that it's Van Gogh. A cubist might not work.
For exaggerated relief but otherwise undistorted 3D imaging, yeah. But do try mousepad under speaker, and try flipping speakers to fire up, or even toward a center divider hehe. PrimeRadiant can face front, LX drivers can point independently any which way so long as acoustic centers time-align and remain close.
By the way the original-original Axia was a desktop semi-nude micro 15".
Well I almost did a desktop 45L 15" coaxial but directivity that close is a challenge. Non-coax dipole "Elfenu" pictured below.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/transmission-line-speakers.395483/post-7264452
The feel of close-range 15" midbass is just... pore-penetratingly immersive. For deep bass I'd add up-firing subwoofer(s) under the desk--so simple.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/transmission-line-speakers.395483/post-7264452
The feel of close-range 15" midbass is just... pore-penetratingly immersive. For deep bass I'd add up-firing subwoofer(s) under the desk--so simple.
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Great observations and questions. in order:
- Androxylo ~ for me it's more whether I want to wear headphones or not and whether I need to keep it quieter for guests and family. I prefer the sound from the speaker system for sure though... bigger, wider, and not constrained to just my head. BTW, my real reference headphone system is in another location and is anchored by Mr Speakers EtherC Flow (closed) planar magnetics driven balanced from source to ears through Schiit Gungnir R2R multibit DAC & Mjolnir 2 hybrid tube amp rolled up to 1960s Amperex "Holland D Getter" E88CCs... there I don't have a 2.1 nearfield alternative, but don't struggle. 🙂
- Dave ~ the Studio is awesome. I decided a couple years ago I should upgrade from the MB Pro and when assessing my use models I decided that 99% of the time I'm at one of two primary locations, both of which are supported by nice monitors and mechanical keyboards. Plugging in the laptop obviated need for laptop screen or battery, etc. So, spend the money on RAM and CPU vs stuff I don't use, I got the Studio Max (my use is not that extremely demanding) and just transport it back and forth (in a cool carry box). Great decision for my use model.
- WChang ~ great point and this is the downside of the "surface mounted" salad bowls... I have thought of trying to "fly" them adjacent to the panel but the bracket fabrication task seems a bit daunting. I have measured the bowls pointed out & away from the reflective surface and they are flatter there. Too, they have better bass performance backed up closer to a wall behind them (but the sub covers a lot of that issue). Still, perhaps some desktop pad ideas might be right to try... thx.
Why no room for an upfiring speaker?........a tallish box 150mm square can effectively house a 5.25" woofer firing up providing excellent midbass and midrange coverage......farther if the driver was supported above by a deflecting device.