There are paper (really a composite) cone drivers in the MA lineup, some older and some brand new. You can go look at them at https://www.markaudio.com/
They're not recent production. You can tell from the pointy cone shaped dust cap. Mark Audio hasn't used that shape in a long time.
jeff
Takes more than good speakers to get the best of that. If your dac, preamp, etc., isn't up to it, then maybe there is some other weak link.
First, that guy is very controversial, ... and he likes the sound of his own voice.
He plugs his own designs as being audio nirvana, and bashes anything else.
Be careful not generalizing when looking at some old drivers (a lot of the ones he mentions are more than 20 years ago!), and saying all the drivers from that company, even recent ones, are bad.
I will agree with one thing: I haven't come up to any driver yet, that doesn't need some kind of compensation. In a multiway, one can play with the XO points and will usually need some padding on the tweeter. On a wide range driver, there will be some compensation to take care of a rising response, baffle step, etc... So every design need some kind of circuit. Anyone listening to a driver just plugged in a box directly to the amp is just ok with subpar sound.
I have built some speakers with the SB65, which is a metal (alum) cone. Again, it needs a little correction, but once added, wow... never had a single driver that had so much attack and detail in stringed instruments. It's mesmerizing. It doesn't need a tweeter, unless you have super human ears and still can hear up to 17-18kHz. Of course, being a 2.5", it doesn't do lows, so it needs a WAF, a woofer to handle the low end.
Paper cones do tend to be warmer, and there has been some less than stellar designs in the past using metal cones.
But, it's changing as designers are learning how to control ringing and offer a very stiff cone.
Happy holidays!
He plugs his own designs as being audio nirvana, and bashes anything else.
Be careful not generalizing when looking at some old drivers (a lot of the ones he mentions are more than 20 years ago!), and saying all the drivers from that company, even recent ones, are bad.
I will agree with one thing: I haven't come up to any driver yet, that doesn't need some kind of compensation. In a multiway, one can play with the XO points and will usually need some padding on the tweeter. On a wide range driver, there will be some compensation to take care of a rising response, baffle step, etc... So every design need some kind of circuit. Anyone listening to a driver just plugged in a box directly to the amp is just ok with subpar sound.
I have built some speakers with the SB65, which is a metal (alum) cone. Again, it needs a little correction, but once added, wow... never had a single driver that had so much attack and detail in stringed instruments. It's mesmerizing. It doesn't need a tweeter, unless you have super human ears and still can hear up to 17-18kHz. Of course, being a 2.5", it doesn't do lows, so it needs a WAF, a woofer to handle the low end.
Paper cones do tend to be warmer, and there has been some less than stellar designs in the past using metal cones.
But, it's changing as designers are learning how to control ringing and offer a very stiff cone.
Happy holidays!
I've got 3 different pairs of M.A. drivers and saving up for 4ths. Open to maybe discovering a little Fostex or Sonido on the side, or Cube if budgeting allows.
I spent some final days with my CHP-90's before Xmas. Bass lift from room loading works really well with the 14L sealed boxes I made for them. Tucked away on an actual bookshelf, or even in a corner, makes them sound a lot fuller and more satisfying (to me, ~25 sqm room) than if they are perched on a coffee table too far out into the room. The customer wants sealed, full stop, so that's perfect.
The CHN-50s just came out of storage. For comparison, the upper treble is little tighter, and brighter, and they can sort-of hold a tenor tone. Perfect for low-key video streaming or BGM.
What the CHN-50's really want is some slight midbass assistance from the 12" Lavoce monkey coffins. Beautiful, rich, warm murmuring baritones help overlook the huge centre-to-centre driver spacing. For the midtweeter I actually got the Alpair 5, but the project got shelved as life got busier.
A lateral amplifier is still in the works, and some awesome circuit ideas are taking shape. It's a critical missing piece of the puzzle.
I spent some final days with my CHP-90's before Xmas. Bass lift from room loading works really well with the 14L sealed boxes I made for them. Tucked away on an actual bookshelf, or even in a corner, makes them sound a lot fuller and more satisfying (to me, ~25 sqm room) than if they are perched on a coffee table too far out into the room. The customer wants sealed, full stop, so that's perfect.
The CHN-50s just came out of storage. For comparison, the upper treble is little tighter, and brighter, and they can sort-of hold a tenor tone. Perfect for low-key video streaming or BGM.
What the CHN-50's really want is some slight midbass assistance from the 12" Lavoce monkey coffins. Beautiful, rich, warm murmuring baritones help overlook the huge centre-to-centre driver spacing. For the midtweeter I actually got the Alpair 5, but the project got shelved as life got busier.
A lateral amplifier is still in the works, and some awesome circuit ideas are taking shape. It's a critical missing piece of the puzzle.
Here a guy I respect a lot talks about the only full range speaker that he considers good, and he reviewed tons of speakers:
The driver they use EMS LB7: https://www.stereopolis.com/products/ems-lb7. It's obviously paper as discussed above.
I was considering it for some time but I don't think it will work on desktop. If you check the frequency it only goes to 1 kHz and in Closer Acoustics Forlane speakers (https://www.stereopolis.com/products/closer-acoustics-forlane-loudspeakers-pair) they use a very long horn to extend it, which is impossible on desktop. So, pass.
The driver they use EMS LB7: https://www.stereopolis.com/products/ems-lb7. It's obviously paper as discussed above.
I was considering it for some time but I don't think it will work on desktop. If you check the frequency it only goes to 1 kHz and in Closer Acoustics Forlane speakers (https://www.stereopolis.com/products/closer-acoustics-forlane-loudspeakers-pair) they use a very long horn to extend it, which is impossible on desktop. So, pass.
CHP-90, CHN-50 Mica, historicallhy A6p/A10p are the best of he paper, all have a “vintage” top end — a very sooth top end, and a bunch that gave one anomally or another — A7p/CHN-70/P7PHD/CHP-70.
But there are more metal ones, and the glass ones have started to appear
dave
Never heard Alpair 7.3eN or A10.3eN or almost any MAOP i guess.
Jordan JX150 was also quite good.
Bit bthere ar elots & lots of bad examples.
dave
He didn't actually declare that was the problem. I didn't see that he discovered the reason behind any of the resonances. I notice the word ringing was thrown out there without saying which were fixable and which weren't. There's a risk the uninitiated would think ringing is automatically a bad thing.
Hi, could you share the correction you used, thanks.
I did a minimalist LX SB65 over IREL vintage alnico 2.5x10in very short TL on-wall (with 4cm sound-absorber board).
I used 15" for PrimeRadiant reflector point-source but surely a smaller driver with tweeter-reflector on adjustable bridge/stalk will work too (pointing either straight or up). Tweeter's (reflected virtual) acoustic center should be close to the midwoofer's, from the listener's perspective. Large variation in very-near-field sitting position/posture should still work better than direct-sound speakers.
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I made two designs.
One was a WTW with the SB65 in the middle, and the great SBA racetrack drivers as woofers.
The other was with a MLTL with the same woofer and the SB65 as wide ranger, cut about 400-500Hz.
Both had different sets of corrections, obviously, but I am afraid they wouldn’t help you.
Hmmmmmmm………..you’re starting to appear as a possible troll here with these assertions that metal cone drivers can’t sound good. A person looking for legitimate assistance would simple say that they prefer the timbre of paper cones and move on.
The LS50 meta will likely go down in history as one of the legacy speakers or GOAT due to its high sales volume and positive experiences of as many owners. Being a rebel against it doesn’t earn much credibility……indifference has it‘s benefits. I would have liked to be a fly on the wall at the Ritchie dinner table while he was growing up…….did mom’s pot roast need better parts? 🤣
I see, no problem. My rather brief playing with SB65 showed up no Al breakup/brightness presumably due to the very large soft dome-dustcap. I have a Wavecor 045 ceramic-cone-annulus silk-dome-center tweeter that also avoided audible hardness, but I reserve judgment over a possible discontinuity in the sound character. From your praise of it the SB65 should be fine.
Indeed, but as I used it from 400Hz and up, it has a slight downward curve up to 1kHz, then, combining the baffle step, the 1kHz up getting much brighter, I needed to tame that down a bit. I think it was more a bsc than a notch... but that design is in storage at the moment. I don't have it to do some more tests at the moment. Sorry.
All I can say is that the SB65 is quite the performer.
It's not warm for sultry vocals, but for woodwinds and stringed instruments, it is quite impressive.
You probably know that Jim Griffin used that driver in his CBT array.
Sorry for the trolling, the goal was to trigger a discussion, I think there is too much bias here towards price/performance and not much towards just performance.
Diminishing returns.
One can get very good sound from reasonably priced drivers.
The W6-2313 is not cheap, but it is not the most expensive driver out there.
Most will not hear the last 5% difference... which often amounts to big bucks.
Then again, a lot of these very expensive drivers (boutique kinda style) rely on marketing and snake oil.
Some do deliver, a lot of them rely on marketing to tell the sheep how good they are. 😉
Now, don't get me started on cables! 🙂
One can get very good sound from reasonably priced drivers.
The W6-2313 is not cheap, but it is not the most expensive driver out there.
Most will not hear the last 5% difference... which often amounts to big bucks.
Then again, a lot of these very expensive drivers (boutique kinda style) rely on marketing and snake oil.
Some do deliver, a lot of them rely on marketing to tell the sheep how good they are. 😉
Now, don't get me started on cables! 🙂
Yes the company chart showed the shallow watering hole, in my case subsumed by being OB over LX wideband in tapered TL, XO-less in series (not run-in so didn't bother to fine-tune). And yes after seeing that and other mentions I tracked down the importer's very last pair (at the time). Which unavailability then made me buy instead 40X "old-stock" Aura and Vifa for a rainy day....