Then you have to look at the noise skirts compared to a standard reference dac where all the inputs are known.
Also, as peufeu pointed out, changing the test frequency can be revealing as to which reference source is causing how much of the problem (if any).
EDIT: Look a stupid argument can be made that nothing can be measured about a reproduction system except for maybe FR at one point in a room. That's if the source device is an AVR built into a cabinet with some speakers. What should we conclude about that? That if FR is flat then its perfect? No way to measure anything wrong with it?
Also, as peufeu pointed out, changing the test frequency can be revealing as to which reference source is causing how much of the problem (if any).
EDIT: Look a stupid argument can be made that nothing can be measured about a reproduction system except for maybe FR at one point in a room. That's if the source device is an AVR built into a cabinet with some speakers. What should we conclude about that? That if FR is flat then its perfect? No way to measure anything wrong with it?
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Before I can continue, I would require an answer to my question about your BB model above.
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In a BB style evaluation you vary the input to see whats come out on the output - this is how to characterise the BB. What made you come to the conclusion that FR is the only property that could be examined. And why drag an AVR into discussion. Is it some type of diversion manoeuvre? Anyways, if that text represent your view of measurement technique it's quite tragic - given the stance you take here on the forum. I would think you would understand that it is possible to completely measure any relevant aspect of a BB solely by stimulating its input and observing its output. Basics.
You seem to need help to answer my questions above - I'll come to rescue:
- Your BB model lacked the analog output interface.
- A DAC don't contain a voltage reference in its external interface (BB) - this is an internally generated function (e.g. LDO) i.e. only seen in the WB view.
- A DAC don't contain a timing reference in its external interface (BB)- this is an internally generated function (oscillator) i.e. only seen in the WB view.
Your modelling skills seems to be lacking...
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You can either measure noise sidebands at different signal frequencies or try a modulation analyser to see what part of the noise sidebands is AM and what PM. AM will usually dominate, so PM may be hard to measure.
You need to know the reference voltage or the clock frequency to calculate it back to V/√Hz at the reference voltage or dBc/Hz at the clock, so you indeed need a bit more than you can measure on a black box model with internal time and voltage reference for that.
What has any of this got to do with cheap Chinese DACs?
You need to know the reference voltage or the clock frequency to calculate it back to V/√Hz at the reference voltage or dBc/Hz at the clock, so you indeed need a bit more than you can measure on a black box model with internal time and voltage reference for that.
What has any of this got to do with cheap Chinese DACs?
It depends on how a black box is defined. For amplitude noise in a dac, there is way to measure it outside of a black box dac. I have already posted the paper before.
Anyway, maybe we can move along from this subject area?
Anyway, maybe we can move along from this subject area?
I never said Chinese DACs were better value I said that hypothetically they could be which is obviously not the same. The primary reason I looked at Chinese DACs was AVS forum where they claim that "all DACs that measure well sound identical because they are completely transparent and sound good". I would not have a desire to try Chinese audio products because of my concern with their reliability if I did not find rave reviews about Topping E50 and E70V , SMSLs and so on other forums. What I've heard from E30 mirrors your experience. I believe that Chinese R2R DACs could have a decent sound based on what I was reading but I would not pay more than $500 for Chinese DAC because of reliability. What do you do with it if it breaks?
Bifrost 2 and 6/64 were on my list but I ended up buying used Mytek Liberty for the price of inexpensive Chinese DAC. If it sounds decent, I will wait for a good deal on Brooklyn+ or Liberty II.
I've heard good things about X16, R26 and A26. My major concern what do you do if it breaks? There is no support in US.
Have a look at two things:
1. There was a link pointed to earlier, that talked about the influence of Vref noise (and other noise, like power supply rails and reference voltages) on phase noise. It turns out that the stuff we hear as being more natural CAN be measured (in this case, the measurements actually served us good..)... so, choosing a DAC (Brooklyn+) with the SMPS in it might not be a good idea..??
2. The Brooklyn+ puts things into perspective by maybe considering the new Gustard x30... with the oven-controlled oscillator in it.. that is, if you think that stuff is important. I played with SD vs SDA crystals and could easily hear a difference...
As for the Chinese stuff, I have Holo May. I asked the distributor to get me a new remote control because I dropped the original. I got it for free.
1. There was a link pointed to earlier, that talked about the influence of Vref noise (and other noise, like power supply rails and reference voltages) on phase noise. It turns out that the stuff we hear as being more natural CAN be measured (in this case, the measurements actually served us good..)... so, choosing a DAC (Brooklyn+) with the SMPS in it might not be a good idea..??
2. The Brooklyn+ puts things into perspective by maybe considering the new Gustard x30... with the oven-controlled oscillator in it.. that is, if you think that stuff is important. I played with SD vs SDA crystals and could easily hear a difference...
As for the Chinese stuff, I have Holo May. I asked the distributor to get me a new remote control because I dropped the original. I got it for free.
I don't have any problems with SMPS in my Hypex amp but It may have more impact in preamps and Dacs and I fully understand the importance of power supply in audio and planning to run Liberty with an external PSU and when I was buying it I suspected that there was high probability that I would not keep it so I bought it used. I just need something to establish a reference level and I don’t think my EMU 0204 can provide it.
I’m surprised that you can hear clock difference I thought that the specs of modern DACs are above sensitivity level of human ears and the F drift is not audible but on the other hand our eyes is one of the most sensitive spectroscopy instruments on the planet that can sense a couple of photons.
Remote is one thing but can distributor fix the device if it gets toasted? I doubt it and this is why I was looking for inexpensive Chinese Dacs. I was very intrigued by R26 because a lot of people say that R2R dacs sound analog and Gustrad products get a lot of buzz. Chinese can make very good products. It is not a secret that Huawei s’ RF network equipment was better than Ericson’s and Nokia’s gear. I’ve got some excellent 3D printers but the company has a technical support department that is based in USA.
I’m surprised that you can hear clock difference I thought that the specs of modern DACs are above sensitivity level of human ears and the F drift is not audible but on the other hand our eyes is one of the most sensitive spectroscopy instruments on the planet that can sense a couple of photons.
Remote is one thing but can distributor fix the device if it gets toasted? I doubt it and this is why I was looking for inexpensive Chinese Dacs. I was very intrigued by R26 because a lot of people say that R2R dacs sound analog and Gustrad products get a lot of buzz. Chinese can make very good products. It is not a secret that Huawei s’ RF network equipment was better than Ericson’s and Nokia’s gear. I’ve got some excellent 3D printers but the company has a technical support department that is based in USA.
Huawei was even the main designer of 5G AFAIK. Too bad they are now being banned from 5G networks for obvious reasons.
Huawei makes other products and honesty dictates that these products are also quite good... for the price. Some other chinese companies try to enter various industrial markets and they can be quite persuasive to enter even if they have to start with a loss.
Huawei makes other products and honesty dictates that these products are also quite good... for the price. Some other chinese companies try to enter various industrial markets and they can be quite persuasive to enter even if they have to start with a loss.
That's what they tell you over at ASR. Its likely true for harmonic distortion, but not necessarily true for some other audible effects (including random clock jitter that doesn't show up in J-Test).
I got a $140 Chinese R2R DAC on the table right now and am in disbelief how good it sounds. Better than my SMSL DL200 with Sparkos discrete opamps. It actually has no precondition to sound as good as it does, as it uses plain old LM317/LM337 with no clean up circuitry to supply a mere +-5V to the Muse02 opamp. There is certainly potential to get this thing singing in the upper league once provided with a discreete output stage and clean power.
Can you post a link? I'm tempted to try this one: https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804585054575.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.3.2d892xwd2xwd8g&algo_pvid=a410325f-dd3e-4f73-9fad-d84b162ae1c6&algo_exp_id=a410325f-dd3e-4f73-9fad-d84b162ae1c6-1&pdp_npi=4@dis!USD!208.14!143.62!!!208.14!143.62!@2101ef5e17310854322123377ea400!12000030415062590!sea!US!0!ABX&curPageLogUid=ObzgVem9wh88&utparam-url=scene:search|query_from:
Its sold on French side for 2X more. https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/dac-...rd-r2r-nos-balanced-24bit-384khz-p-16547.html
It looks like the clock is upgradable.
Its sold on French side for 2X more. https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/dac-...rd-r2r-nos-balanced-24bit-384khz-p-16547.html
It looks like the clock is upgradable.
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i have bought some high end and some low end products lately.
50 times difference in price
10 dollar vs 500 dollar
The 500 dollar one has 100 dollar 8 channel dac and 11 TI differential amps. To me it is transparent
Much better than any recording equipment.
The 10 dollar one has a really good cirrus logic 8 ch dac.
What i found was that the analog output filter has to small components.
So they distort in the -60 -70 db range.
The dac itself is -105db
So bevare of the small caps and resistors in signal chain
50 times difference in price
10 dollar vs 500 dollar
The 500 dollar one has 100 dollar 8 channel dac and 11 TI differential amps. To me it is transparent
Much better than any recording equipment.
The 10 dollar one has a really good cirrus logic 8 ch dac.
What i found was that the analog output filter has to small components.
So they distort in the -60 -70 db range.
The dac itself is -105db
So bevare of the small caps and resistors in signal chain
IME, there is not really any completely transparent dac. However, people may think there is if the sound from a particular dac is the best they ever heard. Again IMHO, all it means is that the particular dac is the most accurate sounding one so far. Probably a better dac will be heard sometime in the future.
Inappropriate and OT posts removed.Actually when I removed the bad filter from the cheap dac and it got back to its -105 dB spec I can’t hear a difference on that and the 50 times more expensive. But the expensve one is great as a measurement signal source
And the expencive has filter settings that makes it measure like the cheap one. So it can be tuned to everyones liking.