Firstly,
I’m being misquoted by people here thinking about what l’ve said and what it means to them on this thread. Don’t let this thread turn into a teenage brother and sister head butting contest. You have no idea who l am. I
I spent some time in Allen B’s thread designing a loudspeaker without crossovers supporting it. I posted the concept of a passive crossover switch box tool kit.
My comments come from being in the trenches over many years often overseas meeting diy audio people. So l do have factual experience.
Obviously a diy loudspeaker is a fun thing to do. But theactual subject of this thread requires removal of the emotional stuff and some analytical thinking.
It’s about determining the probability of a successful project and the pain points experienced during the diy situation. Then weighing up if it’s as good better or worst than a commercial system. How do you quantify and quantify that?
Any exercise of actually doing something new is a L&D (learning and development).
Are you in the process of building a loudspeaker or attempting to figure out if it’s working property?
If your not then your second guessing it with generalities.
In my own experience diy people looking to develop “their own design “ (not a clone) look for certainty in what they want to make. How to make it? Will it work?
Let’s look at the diy loudspeaker journey. This is not about building an exact clone of a commercial or other diy design on the www.
Part one.
So they go on forum. There are literally hundreds of those threads on Diyaudio.com. So we have established it’s not a sole autonomous experience. There are many good things that come out of collaborating with other diy people. It’s fun 🤩.
I’ve committed thousands of posts supporting other diy people in that situation. Thousands of posts on threads which end up being long.
Of course these are only educated opinions unless a poster has fact done exactly the same thing. Sometimes the information isn’t relevant or fact checked. We’ll come back to this later.
The penny drops. Is this diy person committed to putting in the work into developing and testing his ideas? Is it now his idea or someone’s suggestion? Or do they want to rely heavily on the feedback from that thread? This is a key point.
The answer is sometimes yes and sometimes no. It’s unfortunate but enthusiasts tend to aim for a perfected design at this early stage on a forum because they are eager to start building their creation.
They get pointers from generous contributors and sometimes simulations.
There is much food for thought in this first step about the likely good of this project succeeding or perhaps not.
I am interested in what others would do next or have done next?
The first step to loudspeaker design is to measure or at least simulate your room. No manufacturer is going to set off there, so DIY has an advantage from the off
Brian
Brian
I'm going to be honest here and admit that I have no idea what you just said..... What is your point here?
Why wouldn't someone heavily rely on feedback from someone else more experienced than them?
Are you suggesting that taking that feedback makes it somehow not that person's design anymore?
I've already build two 1 way designs and a 3 way. This will be my fourth design.
The second one way design utilized tang band 2143s. I found out how important a tweeter for the highs is and how much you really need a large woofer to take the lows out.
No problems with ageing? I still had a set of B139 around which I wanted to use in a new enclosure. In one of the threads on this forum someone posted that his B139 had an Fs of 43 Hz. Which was for me reason to measure mine as well. They also had an increased Fs of about 43 Hz. And rendered useless. I don't question your buying, I think that it is smart. Just asking.
This is NOT cynical. You must be about my age (1958). I suffer loss of hearing high frequencies. So sometimes I am wondering why I still care about putting tweeters in my speakers. A bit exaggerated, but anything above 8 Khz is useless.
My responses to you, are only to your own words.
You realize it varies greatly per the individual undertaking a project.
So you give helpful advice to whatever class of undertaker, without making summary pronouncements....because you don't know really who you are addressing.
You surmise soooo much...maybe because this was your particular experience/path??
You said "You have no idea who l am"......why say such, a bit preposterous, no?
Ugh, like me and others have simply said....just do it !
Personally. I take about 100X more measurements than most are willing to undertake...and build multiple prototypes to get to the destination.
Last edited:
I got into speaker building because it was the only way I could possibly afford what I really wanted. I was 13 and spent 80 bucks to make a pair of speakers that sounded just as good as $200 Boston Acoustics A60s. I was extremely happy.
I was also hooked. There were so many other possibilities, the only way to explore them was to try another project. Pretty soon I was making them for friends and exploring every permutation of cabinet design, drivers crossovers, etc.
The quest for better sound is an unscratchable itch, and we all know a lot of guys whose ONLY means of scratching it is to pull out their credit card and buy yet another piece of equipment, whether new or used.
Everybody on this forum knows all kinds of people who are endlessly swapping amplifiers, cables, speakers, turntables, DACs etc. Off the shelf.
But if you’re educated, you know that most of that gives you only a superficial level of control of your system.
The speaker being the weakest link in the chain, in DIY we have the ability to manage ALL the fine details and trade-offs, borrow ideas from other designers, and build up our expertise in the process.
Getting better sound for less money is only ONE of the benefits. There is also tremendous pride in accomplishing something that for the most part only professionals working for prestigious companies can pull off.
It’s exhilarating to listen to a great sounding system and say to yourself, “Hey, I designed that.“
It’s also really cool to invite your friends over and drink bourbon and show them off.
I’ve managed to turn some of my friends into audio snobs. I’m pretty happy about that.
Another appeal is the opportunity to deeply understand something down to its foundations. I call it “Reaching the Bottom of the swamp.” For me personally, I wasn’t content to just look up formulas in a cookbook. I wanted to understand how the speaker components actually worked.
I decided to major in electrical engineering so I could fully understand what made it tick.
When I was a senior in college, I wrote a term paper in an acoustics class and derived the math for the transmission line speaker enclosure. I literally started with newton’s law and lumped parameter models of a speaker and worked out all of the wave equations in the box.
https://www.perrymarshall.com/articles/industrial/transmission-line/
That experience taught me what it feels like when your feet are touching the bottom of the swimming pool. That eventually served me very well when I started studying other topics like evolutionary biology and cancer.
I think designing a speaker, after you’ve done it a couple of times, is really a ritual or a ceremony. It’s like making wine or beer or or mead or rebuilding a car engine.
Most people who do things like that do them repeatedly, yet never do the exact same thing twice. there is a Repetition to it that is comforting.
It’s also a little bit religious. It doesn’t take a genius to notice how much the rooms at audio shows resemble a Buddhist temple.
The endeavor of recovering the sound of an original performance has a lot in common with the archaeologist who strives to dig a relic out of the ground without damaging it, or the scribe who attempts to copy a scroll without a single error. Or theologian who attempts to reconstruct an original interpretation. Or the historian who wants to find out what really happened. Or the genealogist reconstructing a family tree as far back as they can go.
The Audio hobby is a parable for all of these things. If I were to sit down and ask you to list the adjectives you would use to describe a perfect speaker, most of those adjectives would also apply to any human being that you greatly admire. in fact, you probably just got done describing… yourself.
Then there is the pride of building something 100% unique. Kits never appealed to me. it doesn’t surprise me that kits aren’t terribly popular. if people really wanted them, there would be more.
Designing a speaker is an exercise in elegance and tradeoffs. Every single choice you make is a compromise, but if you’re really clever, you can kill seven birds with one stone… and nobody notices the hidden flaws. pretty satisfying when you can pull it off.
It’s a way to sharpen your artistic sensibilities and explore the relationship between art and science.
Then there is the ability to do things that are commercially NOT feasible. My friend Tom Perazella built 8 subwoofers into the wall of one of his listening rooms. A lot of guys build huge horns, MEHs and transmission lines.
These are designs that hardly anyone would attempt to put in a box and ship. But they can sound amazing when somebody builds it for themselves.
I worked as a professional speaker designer for three years; doing it for a living took the fun out of it. I left that industry and a few years later my curiosity and drive started to bounce back.
When Ed Dell started his magazine Audio Amateur, which later birthed Speaker Builder and AudioXpress, he liked the word amateur because its original meeting was “does it for the love of it.
And finally, there’s a certain amount of ego involved. I frankly have zero interest in paying money for someone else’s design. I want it to sound my way 🙂
I was also hooked. There were so many other possibilities, the only way to explore them was to try another project. Pretty soon I was making them for friends and exploring every permutation of cabinet design, drivers crossovers, etc.
The quest for better sound is an unscratchable itch, and we all know a lot of guys whose ONLY means of scratching it is to pull out their credit card and buy yet another piece of equipment, whether new or used.
Everybody on this forum knows all kinds of people who are endlessly swapping amplifiers, cables, speakers, turntables, DACs etc. Off the shelf.
But if you’re educated, you know that most of that gives you only a superficial level of control of your system.
The speaker being the weakest link in the chain, in DIY we have the ability to manage ALL the fine details and trade-offs, borrow ideas from other designers, and build up our expertise in the process.
Getting better sound for less money is only ONE of the benefits. There is also tremendous pride in accomplishing something that for the most part only professionals working for prestigious companies can pull off.
It’s exhilarating to listen to a great sounding system and say to yourself, “Hey, I designed that.“
It’s also really cool to invite your friends over and drink bourbon and show them off.
I’ve managed to turn some of my friends into audio snobs. I’m pretty happy about that.
Another appeal is the opportunity to deeply understand something down to its foundations. I call it “Reaching the Bottom of the swamp.” For me personally, I wasn’t content to just look up formulas in a cookbook. I wanted to understand how the speaker components actually worked.
I decided to major in electrical engineering so I could fully understand what made it tick.
When I was a senior in college, I wrote a term paper in an acoustics class and derived the math for the transmission line speaker enclosure. I literally started with newton’s law and lumped parameter models of a speaker and worked out all of the wave equations in the box.
https://www.perrymarshall.com/articles/industrial/transmission-line/
That experience taught me what it feels like when your feet are touching the bottom of the swimming pool. That eventually served me very well when I started studying other topics like evolutionary biology and cancer.
I think designing a speaker, after you’ve done it a couple of times, is really a ritual or a ceremony. It’s like making wine or beer or or mead or rebuilding a car engine.
Most people who do things like that do them repeatedly, yet never do the exact same thing twice. there is a Repetition to it that is comforting.
It’s also a little bit religious. It doesn’t take a genius to notice how much the rooms at audio shows resemble a Buddhist temple.
The endeavor of recovering the sound of an original performance has a lot in common with the archaeologist who strives to dig a relic out of the ground without damaging it, or the scribe who attempts to copy a scroll without a single error. Or theologian who attempts to reconstruct an original interpretation. Or the historian who wants to find out what really happened. Or the genealogist reconstructing a family tree as far back as they can go.
The Audio hobby is a parable for all of these things. If I were to sit down and ask you to list the adjectives you would use to describe a perfect speaker, most of those adjectives would also apply to any human being that you greatly admire. in fact, you probably just got done describing… yourself.
Then there is the pride of building something 100% unique. Kits never appealed to me. it doesn’t surprise me that kits aren’t terribly popular. if people really wanted them, there would be more.
Designing a speaker is an exercise in elegance and tradeoffs. Every single choice you make is a compromise, but if you’re really clever, you can kill seven birds with one stone… and nobody notices the hidden flaws. pretty satisfying when you can pull it off.
It’s a way to sharpen your artistic sensibilities and explore the relationship between art and science.
Then there is the ability to do things that are commercially NOT feasible. My friend Tom Perazella built 8 subwoofers into the wall of one of his listening rooms. A lot of guys build huge horns, MEHs and transmission lines.
These are designs that hardly anyone would attempt to put in a box and ship. But they can sound amazing when somebody builds it for themselves.
I worked as a professional speaker designer for three years; doing it for a living took the fun out of it. I left that industry and a few years later my curiosity and drive started to bounce back.
When Ed Dell started his magazine Audio Amateur, which later birthed Speaker Builder and AudioXpress, he liked the word amateur because its original meeting was “does it for the love of it.
And finally, there’s a certain amount of ego involved. I frankly have zero interest in paying money for someone else’s design. I want it to sound my way 🙂
How about we flip this question on it's head? When you are doing a DIY build is that your main concern to equal or beat a commercial design?
Rob 🙂
Rob 🙂
For my more ambitious projects, it’s going beyond what commercial designs were attempting.
Nice post Perry.
I think for me it is simply trying to build all those speakers I couldn't afford when I was 17, no matter that they don't fit into the house.
Also for the simple pleasure of being able to say "I built those"
I think for me it is simply trying to build all those speakers I couldn't afford when I was 17, no matter that they don't fit into the house.
Also for the simple pleasure of being able to say "I built those"
That is definitely part of my motivation as well from a pair of large format monitors 4344's to currents systems I just could not otherwise afford. Your right when you are done there is the satisfaction of being able to say "I built Them"
Rob 🙂
I've wanted some Altec Lansing VOT since I heard them at a cinema in 1967. I've never lived in a city with an Altec dealer or found any used at a good price in shopper papers or internet. I found an affordable copy in 2016 in the Peavey SP2 (1999). Best reproduction of a Steinway piano of any speaker I have heard. SP2 were stolen 2020 by a local unemployed house painter. As bar band capable PA speakers, SP2 have cash value at any pawn shop or flea market. I am building copies of SP2 out of MDF, which I intend to leave unfinished. I call them "Uglyson". None of my home project amps were stolen; their look is too crude. Sound would be equivalent to SP2(2004), if I am skillful enough. I have acquired candidate Eminence drivers (Deltapro-15A + N314T-8), but all woodworking and handtools were also stolen by the perp. As my hearing stops at 14000 hz now, top end tweeter performance above that is not a goal. Room walls ceiling & floor are pretty uneven, with lots of books media pianos & organs, couches, so room correction is not a priority.
Last edited:
Now that you mention it, “too ugly to steal” is an underappreciated virtue of DIY.
Maybe shift back to the initial topics direction, just a little?
I have some friends, that are of the "we have the money and can always get the best" kind.
When I showed and auditioned some of my raw builds, the didn't even take a minute to listen, as in their mindset it was worthless DIYS sh#t.
Later, I started to give my speakers and amps more professional optics. I'm restoring cars, so I can do all kinds of stuff in professional quality. May it be paint, wood or metal work or even leather and textile. Just to give an idea.
So I put my amps in solid, combined wood/ aluminum cases, one pair of class A mono's even in acryl. Speaker where painted or veneered, nice fat wires and all the stuff you are used to see at high class audio, build in small numbers. Not to mention, the sound did not change that much...
Anyway, since I only show finished things to my wealthy friends, they take my audio stuff serious, take time to listen and some had me install special audio in their homes.
I thing I understood the basics of High End audio marketing: It is not about objective sound quality, but the optics are the thing that activates the "I want to have this" reflex.
To be honest, much of the DIYS products I see in my country are often just as bad as they look. A lot of good material spoiled. Many DIYS people have the wish to create something very special, but lack talent, skills, tools and funds. Sometimes it is the opposite, people do fantastic things with very little tools or money, but these are rare exeptions.
Most of the DIYS builds will go to the dump, as soon as the individual has the funds to buy somethng commercial.
My German DIYS professionals, as I may call them, are in most cases not the most helpfull people. They love to show their builds, enjoy beeing admired, make criptic posts online, but get thight lipped when it comes to helpfull information. Many still hope to sell their designs I suppose, and fear to give away the little they know. Which explains the no quality forums in Germany and me writing here.
I have some friends, that are of the "we have the money and can always get the best" kind.
When I showed and auditioned some of my raw builds, the didn't even take a minute to listen, as in their mindset it was worthless DIYS sh#t.
Later, I started to give my speakers and amps more professional optics. I'm restoring cars, so I can do all kinds of stuff in professional quality. May it be paint, wood or metal work or even leather and textile. Just to give an idea.
So I put my amps in solid, combined wood/ aluminum cases, one pair of class A mono's even in acryl. Speaker where painted or veneered, nice fat wires and all the stuff you are used to see at high class audio, build in small numbers. Not to mention, the sound did not change that much...
Anyway, since I only show finished things to my wealthy friends, they take my audio stuff serious, take time to listen and some had me install special audio in their homes.
I thing I understood the basics of High End audio marketing: It is not about objective sound quality, but the optics are the thing that activates the "I want to have this" reflex.
To be honest, much of the DIYS products I see in my country are often just as bad as they look. A lot of good material spoiled. Many DIYS people have the wish to create something very special, but lack talent, skills, tools and funds. Sometimes it is the opposite, people do fantastic things with very little tools or money, but these are rare exeptions.
Most of the DIYS builds will go to the dump, as soon as the individual has the funds to buy somethng commercial.
My German DIYS professionals, as I may call them, are in most cases not the most helpfull people. They love to show their builds, enjoy beeing admired, make criptic posts online, but get thight lipped when it comes to helpfull information. Many still hope to sell their designs I suppose, and fear to give away the little they know. Which explains the no quality forums in Germany and me writing here.
All my speakers have been DIY since I started building as a kid in the 60's.
I studied books, magazine articles, etc., to learn, with the simple goal of building the best I could within my budget.
I was always happy with the results and each build served a long time before being upgraded.
I have never bought or owned commercial speakers, so that comparison wasn't ever available.
High end and esoteric commercial speakers were just a source of inspiration as the designs and technology evolved over the years.
For example, a recent project was inspired by the Lenard Opals (attached below).
Can't build anything that big or expensive, but the points of inspiration for me were:
1) fully active - no passive XOs
2) one amp channel for each driver (no series / parallel driver wiring)
3) an independent sealed enclosure for each driver
4) the "MTM like" driver configuration
So with these points in mind I have built an active system with pair of MTM towers, supplemented by four subs and two satellite tweeters, all powered by 12 channels of DIY amps.
Can't really say if it sounds better than commercial stuff, but I like it and that's what counts.
I studied books, magazine articles, etc., to learn, with the simple goal of building the best I could within my budget.
I was always happy with the results and each build served a long time before being upgraded.
I have never bought or owned commercial speakers, so that comparison wasn't ever available.
High end and esoteric commercial speakers were just a source of inspiration as the designs and technology evolved over the years.
For example, a recent project was inspired by the Lenard Opals (attached below).
Can't build anything that big or expensive, but the points of inspiration for me were:
1) fully active - no passive XOs
2) one amp channel for each driver (no series / parallel driver wiring)
3) an independent sealed enclosure for each driver
4) the "MTM like" driver configuration
So with these points in mind I have built an active system with pair of MTM towers, supplemented by four subs and two satellite tweeters, all powered by 12 channels of DIY amps.
Can't really say if it sounds better than commercial stuff, but I like it and that's what counts.
Attachments
Perry, what a gracious uplifting post...thank you.
It's nice to see when accomplished people retain such down to earth communication skills.
It's nice to see when accomplished people retain such down to earth communication skills.
Great question.
Definitely to beat it. 😀
Apart from the obvious ability to make speakers larger, uglier when uglier achieves better sound haha, and exactly how we want, etc etc,...
.....i think active multi-way gives DIY an advantage most commercial designers don't enjoy. Particularly if we can tolerate FIR latency.
When latency can be tolerated, I think DIY has the opportunity to rather easily improve an equivalent multi-way commercial acoustic design, that only employs conventional DSP (or active analog).
I enjoyed your entire post. It mirrors my own thoughts. I enjoy the entire design and construction process, which includes the analytic aspects, the creative design aspects, and the craft aspects.
j.