No one has pointed to the Stereophile review: https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-71-heretic-ad614-loudspeaker
No measurements section yet.
And some may extract some useful info fro this thread: https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=65051&hilit=heretic
dave
No measurements section yet.
And some may extract some useful info fro this thread: https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=65051&hilit=heretic
dave
I'm playing with a different brand of co-ax at the moment and have had a similar experience. The response isn't as flat or consistent off-axis as I would like, but the sound is pretty good. It's taking more shaping and more rounds of crossover adjustment to get things where I want them than is typical, so I think that's related to response irregularities and inherent issues with the pretty basic waveguide in my woofer (Beta 10CX).
I was actually referring to the response plots from Faital. They show similar behavior, and my current project does as well. That's one of the reasons I didn't get past a simulation of series for my co-ax project. I had already run the drivers with an active crossover and analog EQ to tame them, so I knew I was going to have to employ more shaping than series was going to be amenable to. But my tweeter response is inherently less flat than the Faital's too. My parallel crossover isn't that complex at the moment, but to simplify it I pushed cross points and Q's around in ways that are not possible with a series configuration.
In the end, I think you just have to accept some of the limitations and decide which parts are dealbreakers for you. In my case, I wanted to experiment with much higher sensitivity than I normally work with and along the way have been surprised at how good they can sound while not measuring so great.
I think within all the compromises I will maybe drop the resolution down to a 6th or a 3rd octave and tune the 30 degree axis. I don't think the crossover is far from that point anyway maybe a few little tweaks, possibly just on the attenuation strategy.
I was wondering about the Serial Xover in Vituixcad and disconnecting the driver to look at each section response, which as you know changes the response slightly.
However, if we use the re and Le (Electrical parameters ) of the original driver when doing a swap that may work to still load the network correctly.
VituixCad generates a LT spice model I may have to consider what the info in the LT spice data needs i.e the LC and R of the driver so that i can drag driver 1 or 2 out of the simulation and substitute a saved LCR block that simulates the electrical characteristics of that particular driver.
I think that should allow me to investigating each driver and network response individually . Possibly i could have explained that better.
This high sensitivity design is interesting and what i have already heard I know I can make something enjoyable. Possibly with the series Xover.
If not a parallel and that will obviously have a 4-5Khz notch.
I was wondering about the Serial Xover in Vituixcad and disconnecting the driver to look at each section response, which as you know changes the response slightly.
However, if we use the re and Le (Electrical parameters ) of the original driver when doing a swap that may work to still load the network correctly.
VituixCad generates a LT spice model I may have to consider what the info in the LT spice data needs i.e the LC and R of the driver so that i can drag driver 1 or 2 out of the simulation and substitute a saved LCR block that simulates the electrical characteristics of that particular driver.
I think that should allow me to investigating each driver and network response individually . Possibly i could have explained that better.
This high sensitivity design is interesting and what i have already heard I know I can make something enjoyable. Possibly with the series Xover.
If not a parallel and that will obviously have a 4-5Khz notch.
?
Jeff Bagby Software - Series Crossover Designer
http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/crossover/scd.htm
Jeff Bagby Software - Series Crossover Designer
http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/crossover/scd.htm
try again
? webarchive - YMMV
Jeff Bagby Software - Series Crossover Designer
https://web.archive.org/web/20100409013624/http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/crossover/scd.htm
http://audio.claub.net/software/jbabgy/jbagby.html
https://www.speakerdesign.net/
? webarchive - YMMV
Jeff Bagby Software - Series Crossover Designer
https://web.archive.org/web/20100409013624/http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/crossover/scd.htm
http://audio.claub.net/software/jbabgy/jbagby.html
https://www.speakerdesign.net/
Last edited:
Thanks for the links I will find a pc that still allows me to run excel, without paying for a yearly licence or some such.
I think Vituixcad handles the Serial Xover well enough. However, if I get your series Xover designer up and running I will let you know the results.
I think to progress this further I need to sim the bass it in the box, or build a box and measure. Also need to stock up for Xmas etc.
I think Vituixcad handles the Serial Xover well enough. However, if I get your series Xover designer up and running I will let you know the results.
I think to progress this further I need to sim the bass it in the box, or build a box and measure. Also need to stock up for Xmas etc.
FYI
BC Speakers 12CLX64-8 Coaxial
https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/products/coaxial/12-0/8/12CLX64-8
BC 1700 crossover (Not a series crossover)
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/2-...speakers-12clx64-1700-hz-24-12-db-octave.html
---
Faital 12hx230
https://usspeaker.com/faital pro 12hx230-1.htm
Maybe Faital has a crossover available.
BC Speakers 12CLX64-8 Coaxial
https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/products/coaxial/12-0/8/12CLX64-8
BC 1700 crossover (Not a series crossover)
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/2-...speakers-12clx64-1700-hz-24-12-db-octave.html
---
Faital 12hx230
https://usspeaker.com/faital pro 12hx230-1.htm
Maybe Faital has a crossover available.
Just out of interest does anybody know if the serial crossover version linked to earlier in post 46 is functional?
I could get the response to load, but it didn't seem to pick up the impedance information. Possibly due to all the macros being enabled. I am running windows 11 and it needs extra attention to allow macros to run?
I could get the response to load, but it didn't seem to pick up the impedance information. Possibly due to all the macros being enabled. I am running windows 11 and it needs extra attention to allow macros to run?
from
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/software-for-series-crossover-calculations.356315/
post#13
rabbitz
2020-06-21 11:08 pm
Jeff Bagby's Series Crossover Designer and Passive Crossover designer do series xo's. Need Excel for them to work.
======
Rabbitz- he worked with series crossovers (his old site)
https://web.archive.org/web/20070225063318/http://www.rzaudio.com/design.htm
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/software-for-series-crossover-calculations.356315/
post#13
rabbitz
Member
Joined 20032020-06-21 11:08 pm
Jeff Bagby's Series Crossover Designer and Passive Crossover designer do series xo's. Need Excel for them to work.
======
Rabbitz- he worked with series crossovers (his old site)
https://web.archive.org/web/20070225063318/http://www.rzaudio.com/design.htm
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I have Excel but as mentioned win11 doesn't like macros. I may hav eto manually enable them one by one. A bit of a Xmas quiz !
Also reading the linked post Vituixcad is listed as doing series Xovers which matches my experience with it.
No measurements for a a while as its time for Christmas.
A Merry and Peaceful Christmas to all.
Also reading the linked post Vituixcad is listed as doing series Xovers which matches my experience with it.
No measurements for a a while as its time for Christmas.
A Merry and Peaceful Christmas to all.
maybe the second link
http://audio.claub.net/software/jbabgy/PCD.html
Passive Designer 8
"This spreadsheet will produce the frequency, phase and impedance response of 2 way, 2.5 Way standard and cascaded versions, and 3 way parallel systems, as well as 2 way series, 2.5 combined series/parallel designs, and can even be used to design 3 way series networks. It is designed to work with actual driver frequency and impedance data in the form of .frd and .zma/zda files which can be imported into the program from most measurement systems."
http://audio.claub.net/software/jbabgy/PCD.html
Passive Designer 8
"This spreadsheet will produce the frequency, phase and impedance response of 2 way, 2.5 Way standard and cascaded versions, and 3 way parallel systems, as well as 2 way series, 2.5 combined series/parallel designs, and can even be used to design 3 way series networks. It is designed to work with actual driver frequency and impedance data in the form of .frd and .zma/zda files which can be imported into the program from most measurement systems."
FYI, a series crossover example- Jeff Bagby - The Tributes
https://meniscusaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Tributes-Write-Up.pdf
https://meniscusaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Tributes-Write-Up.pdf
According specs and the original crossover values, L.R. 2nd order series crossover
and Fx=1700Hz
.
2 x R AchrOhmic (France)
1.8 ohm 16W 2% NI
probably serial conn. for 3.6 ohm to HF unit?
.
C
8.2 uF, 10 uF
version a
Mundorf MCap EVO Aluminium Oil
450V 3%
version b
Solen
PB-MKP-FC
400V 5%
.
LF
L.R. II order serial xover
Fx=1700 Hz
Z=11.42 ohm (correspond to LF ipedance @ Fx)
C=10 uF (original value)
L=0.88 mH (calculated value)
.
HF
L.R. II order serial xover
Fx=1700 Hz
Z=9.36 ohm (correspond to HF ipedance @ Fx)
C=8.2 uF (original value)
L=1.07 mH (calculated value)
.
online L.R. calc used
http://mh-audio.nl/Calculators/SLR2.asp
.
and Fx=1700Hz
.
2 x R AchrOhmic (France)
1.8 ohm 16W 2% NI
probably serial conn. for 3.6 ohm to HF unit?
.
C
8.2 uF, 10 uF
version a
Mundorf MCap EVO Aluminium Oil
450V 3%
version b
Solen
PB-MKP-FC
400V 5%
.
LF
L.R. II order serial xover
Fx=1700 Hz
Z=11.42 ohm (correspond to LF ipedance @ Fx)
C=10 uF (original value)
L=0.88 mH (calculated value)
.
HF
L.R. II order serial xover
Fx=1700 Hz
Z=9.36 ohm (correspond to HF ipedance @ Fx)
C=8.2 uF (original value)
L=1.07 mH (calculated value)
.
online L.R. calc used
http://mh-audio.nl/Calculators/SLR2.asp
.
This may be useful for others to see how the predicted values and the ones represented in the Heretic Audio images model.
I have not listened to this combo and I expect it to have an excess of treble for my liking. Remember the Faital pro audio datasheet showing the treble response being relatively constant in the higher range due to the horn loading.
Please remember my data is against a smaller baffle and was windowed to approx. 3mS.
I cant help but wonder if there is another subtle tweak regarding more attenuation for the tweeter, I did wonder if their is another pcb somewhere with another resistor or variable resistor to turn down the treble.
I have cut some front baffles but have run out of plywood may have to use MDF for side panels and braces etc to see this through to a finished design
I have not listened to this combo and I expect it to have an excess of treble for my liking. Remember the Faital pro audio datasheet showing the treble response being relatively constant in the higher range due to the horn loading.
Please remember my data is against a smaller baffle and was windowed to approx. 3mS.
I cant help but wonder if there is another subtle tweak regarding more attenuation for the tweeter, I did wonder if their is another pcb somewhere with another resistor or variable resistor to turn down the treble.
I have cut some front baffles but have run out of plywood may have to use MDF for side panels and braces etc to see this through to a finished design
Last edited by a moderator:
Just got back and saw this.
The third resistor is shorted so does not effect the data presented. It has the black strikethrough.
I still think it needs something else for the tweeter response. I will try to build and connect the Xover at the weekend, but the horn loaded tweeter response does not appeal to me. But that's just me.
The third resistor is shorted so does not effect the data presented. It has the black strikethrough.
I still think it needs something else for the tweeter response. I will try to build and connect the Xover at the weekend, but the horn loaded tweeter response does not appeal to me. But that's just me.
Quick update I tried the above Xover in post 55 and as expected it has a bit too much treble for my personal liking, but Zoran knows the two resistors can be used in a different way.
Staying with the L and C values, if you split the two 1.8 ohm resistors to form a L pad attenuator in front of the tweeter that provided a much better frequency response. I could only try 3.3 and 3.3 as I don't have those low value resistors in my resistor bin, anyway I was pleased with the result.
A word of caution, I am still working with my original baffle, therefore it is not a finished design. I can also see a blip in the 2nd harmonic distortion at 2Khz, as mentioned by the Heretic designer. This Xover does run the tweeter pretty a t1.7Khz Xover Frequency.
Additionally, I haven't run these at high volume yet i.e not above 90 dBs or so. The reason for this is I have an elderly neighbour next door and I don't want to frighten them with loud chirps or white noise etc. Consequently a distortion plot at 96 or 100 dBs could be a while or after I have built the cabinets.
Once the cabinets are built I will further adjust the Xover looking at overall frequency response, impedance and phase, plus the distortion characteristics.
I have one solution that is quite different in some component values, especially the first capacitor feeding the tweeter,.
If this was a parallel Xover design on seeing such a small value used you would automatically say I have made a mistake, but the frequency response and impedance data show otherwise.
18 or 22mm ply will be the most expensive bit of the whole design with such a simple Xover
I have attached a snip of a Clio pocket measurement taken today using Zoran's values with the 3.3 ohm Lpad I have mentioned. The slightly different trace was due to differing inductor values in the vertical leg. 0.8mH -0.5mH.
Staying with the L and C values, if you split the two 1.8 ohm resistors to form a L pad attenuator in front of the tweeter that provided a much better frequency response. I could only try 3.3 and 3.3 as I don't have those low value resistors in my resistor bin, anyway I was pleased with the result.
A word of caution, I am still working with my original baffle, therefore it is not a finished design. I can also see a blip in the 2nd harmonic distortion at 2Khz, as mentioned by the Heretic designer. This Xover does run the tweeter pretty a t1.7Khz Xover Frequency.
Additionally, I haven't run these at high volume yet i.e not above 90 dBs or so. The reason for this is I have an elderly neighbour next door and I don't want to frighten them with loud chirps or white noise etc. Consequently a distortion plot at 96 or 100 dBs could be a while or after I have built the cabinets.
Once the cabinets are built I will further adjust the Xover looking at overall frequency response, impedance and phase, plus the distortion characteristics.
I have one solution that is quite different in some component values, especially the first capacitor feeding the tweeter,.
If this was a parallel Xover design on seeing such a small value used you would automatically say I have made a mistake, but the frequency response and impedance data show otherwise.
18 or 22mm ply will be the most expensive bit of the whole design with such a simple Xover
I have attached a snip of a Clio pocket measurement taken today using Zoran's values with the 3.3 ohm Lpad I have mentioned. The slightly different trace was due to differing inductor values in the vertical leg. 0.8mH -0.5mH.