If you are into DIY - lots of options to improve the Q350 und finetune to your taste :
https://www.hifialex.de/pimp-kef-q350/
https://www-hifialex-de.translate.g..._sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp
https://www.hifialex.de/pimp-kef-q350/
https://www-hifialex-de.translate.g..._sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp
It might be possible to cross-feed some bass into the full-range to oppose the unwanted microphonics. Then again, it might not work as expected, or would require a lot of tinkering to get it right.
If you want the FR to "push back harder" against the woofer rumbles, this could increase the error current, which could be worse than just leaving it alone. If the FR runs on current drive (or a high-ish output impedance) then less error current would be generated in the first place, but injecting bass into the input could be cleaner than relying on voltage feedback to do its thing (but also more prone to phase errors). I haven't tried it so I don't know, just making some educated guesses here. The same issues would exist with side-by-side speaker arrangements but people usually do nothing about it. The MEH (multiple entry horn?) guys would probably be the most experienced with that whole subject.
You could also try some kind of mechanical crossover, so the FR baffle is unaffected by the bass. Maybe some kind of cardioid action, so the FR is protected by a box with resistive venting, and the baffle width and weight is tuned to let it "float in the breeze" by just the right amount to minimise bass interference??
If you want the FR to "push back harder" against the woofer rumbles, this could increase the error current, which could be worse than just leaving it alone. If the FR runs on current drive (or a high-ish output impedance) then less error current would be generated in the first place, but injecting bass into the input could be cleaner than relying on voltage feedback to do its thing (but also more prone to phase errors). I haven't tried it so I don't know, just making some educated guesses here. The same issues would exist with side-by-side speaker arrangements but people usually do nothing about it. The MEH (multiple entry horn?) guys would probably be the most experienced with that whole subject.
You could also try some kind of mechanical crossover, so the FR baffle is unaffected by the bass. Maybe some kind of cardioid action, so the FR is protected by a box with resistive venting, and the baffle width and weight is tuned to let it "float in the breeze" by just the right amount to minimise bass interference??
Cal and Pano understand things as i do:
A full range in front of a woofer.
Both had previous experience with coax and both rise good point: size of full range potentially used and ( very) potential issue about acoustic interference leading to awful issues.
Running the FR OB ( dipole, without closed box) will expose it to the woofer wavefront: if it's more powerful than the FR it will interact with the membrane of the smaller driver. This will lead to issues very certainly.
Now the size of the FR will induce other nastys as it will be an obstacle in front of the woofer and diffraction, reflection and diffusion will occurs. Depending of FR size it'll happen in a given frequency range most probably in the higher range of the woofer used bandpass.
So in my view running the FR dipole in this config is a bad idea.
If i gave a link to ME-Gethain products it wasn't to suggest to buy a pair but to study them to understand how they did it: they use passive cardio for the sub and low mid.
For the low mid there is a small box full of absorbing material and large openings leading to the cardio pattern ( for more info on this search about member Keyser's post in here he is one of the brain behind D&D 8c and did his initial experiments open source in here).
By doing same way you could mitigate the first issue i listed.
Now the second one ( diffraction, reflections). If you have a box involved then it'll have a shape. By choice of shape it could help mitigate this second effect: a teardrop shaped enclosure would be my first choice (take a look at B&W 'Nautilus' mid and high enclosure), or at least something approaching.
I would use a bunch of absorbing material glued on it too ( Urei version of Altec coax used this on the protubering horn the Altec coax have).
It'll represent a set of challenge to have this right. Even more if you plan to monitor your work on it.
Now about advice on coax being good or bad, nescessary or not,... we all listen to things differently, so we all have different pov.
As much as i respect Charlie contribution in here, i can tell i'm sensible to coax arrangement: i can clearly identify the positive attribute of the Tannoy i own versus my much bigger 3ways mains ( yes i'm former soundengineer too). I can relate too they have issue...
That didn't stopped me to invest in another set of coax drivers which should now be at the postoffice atm.
If you are not used to them i would suggest you to listen to a pair of coax to see by yourself if it is your thing or not befor going any further.
As it is to work on them i would suggest to use something already tryed and tested for monitor purpose: you need loudspeakers which 'translate' well outside your studio/control room.
If you are 'into' the principle and want a kind of arrangement as you described there is other ways to do it that with a FR, an there is example in there... but i'm too much exited to go to post office right now to start a search... but if interested, don't hesitate to ask.
A full range in front of a woofer.
Both had previous experience with coax and both rise good point: size of full range potentially used and ( very) potential issue about acoustic interference leading to awful issues.
Running the FR OB ( dipole, without closed box) will expose it to the woofer wavefront: if it's more powerful than the FR it will interact with the membrane of the smaller driver. This will lead to issues very certainly.
Now the size of the FR will induce other nastys as it will be an obstacle in front of the woofer and diffraction, reflection and diffusion will occurs. Depending of FR size it'll happen in a given frequency range most probably in the higher range of the woofer used bandpass.
So in my view running the FR dipole in this config is a bad idea.
If i gave a link to ME-Gethain products it wasn't to suggest to buy a pair but to study them to understand how they did it: they use passive cardio for the sub and low mid.
For the low mid there is a small box full of absorbing material and large openings leading to the cardio pattern ( for more info on this search about member Keyser's post in here he is one of the brain behind D&D 8c and did his initial experiments open source in here).
By doing same way you could mitigate the first issue i listed.
Now the second one ( diffraction, reflections). If you have a box involved then it'll have a shape. By choice of shape it could help mitigate this second effect: a teardrop shaped enclosure would be my first choice (take a look at B&W 'Nautilus' mid and high enclosure), or at least something approaching.
I would use a bunch of absorbing material glued on it too ( Urei version of Altec coax used this on the protubering horn the Altec coax have).
It'll represent a set of challenge to have this right. Even more if you plan to monitor your work on it.
Now about advice on coax being good or bad, nescessary or not,... we all listen to things differently, so we all have different pov.
As much as i respect Charlie contribution in here, i can tell i'm sensible to coax arrangement: i can clearly identify the positive attribute of the Tannoy i own versus my much bigger 3ways mains ( yes i'm former soundengineer too). I can relate too they have issue...
That didn't stopped me to invest in another set of coax drivers which should now be at the postoffice atm.
If you are not used to them i would suggest you to listen to a pair of coax to see by yourself if it is your thing or not befor going any further.
As it is to work on them i would suggest to use something already tryed and tested for monitor purpose: you need loudspeakers which 'translate' well outside your studio/control room.
If you are 'into' the principle and want a kind of arrangement as you described there is other ways to do it that with a FR, an there is example in there... but i'm too much exited to go to post office right now to start a search... but if interested, don't hesitate to ask.
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Whilst I like coaxials, I'm sure that many tinkering hobbyists might view them as a bit of a 'dead end', in that they have no choice in the combination of bass/mid and HF driver. Further, many coaxials available are PA drivers which I have noticed can be a turn-off to hifi types. The new B&C 18" triaxial looks like an interesting beast!
I'm contemplating using full range coaxials with (essentially over above) 10" crossed over subs. Picture these Gallo's with a full range coaxials (a single coax per speaker) housed in a spherical wooden hardwood baffle. Replacing the ribbons and more usual looking mid range drivers. Thats my idea here. After I raided a chef's kitchen. But once finished you won't even recognize there original intended use.
If I can find coaxials that work in the cramped quarters it would require. Otherwise I will look into some that sound good with an open baffle set up, suspended over the subs. The latter seems cooler imo, and may look cooler. Not to mention may even sound better and more open literally and contextually if configured with an "OB".
If I can find coaxials that work in the cramped quarters it would require. Otherwise I will look into some that sound good with an open baffle set up, suspended over the subs. The latter seems cooler imo, and may look cooler. Not to mention may even sound better and more open literally and contextually if configured with an "OB".
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To briefly add. It would sure simplify the whole project build and amplification, cross overs and set up etc. One integrated, one power amp with built ins for the subs is all you would need. Easy peasy! At least it seems so, before jumping in 😆
Hi, could you give us a more detailed plan of what you envision cheapvega? It would help keep the thread on track. 😉
IMO people should consider coaxial systems more often. The state of the art in PA is focused on reducing the distances between sources to get closer to the coaxial ideal. See for example: Danley, EAW Anya, JBL VTX, JBL PD700i. These systems are harder to execute than a few drivers on a flat baffle but don't have vertical off axis response abnormalities.
If the fullrange can be mounted as close as practically possible to the woofer, on the same baffle, and remain within 1/4-wavelength at the crossover frequency, ideally even below to where the FR is at least 10dB down relative to the woofer, you'll likely have most of the benefits of a coaxial-mount while avoiding many drawbacks.
You just beat me to that.
One of the major reasons to consider a WAW as the OP is, is that if that "quarter-wavelength\ at the XO" goal you essentially get a coincidence of the drivers in space, ie the same goal as a coax, but with even less issues given that in most real coaxes the frequency where the XO takes place the quarter wavelength is small and they tend to need time delay to get the same coincidence as the WAW gets just because of physics (LF has longer wavelengths).
dave
One of the major reasons to consider a WAW as the OP is, is that if that "quarter-wavelength\ at the XO" goal you essentially get a coincidence of the drivers in space, ie the same goal as a coax, but with even less issues given that in most real coaxes the frequency where the XO takes place the quarter wavelength is small and they tend to need time delay to get the same coincidence as the WAW gets just because of physics (LF has longer wavelengths).
dave
I will have to look up that one. Sounds fun.
This summer I will be putting a pair of P.Audio 18” coax back into service. They are impressive beasts.
You say that like it's a bad thing...
PAudio had a 15" coax which took a 2" that I had my BMS4590s attached to about 12/15ya. Very nice. I don't recall why I sold the PAudios.
I managed to shoe-horn Monacor tweeters into some ancient McKenzie PA speakers. Sound nice to me, but not quite the same as the OP is asking
Brian
Brian
What coaxials do people have experience with?
PA drivers use larger lighter moving masses, strong magnetic systems, for 100+dB/2.83V sensitivity and high maximum SPL. They sacrifice some smoothness in amplitude response.
But for home hi-fi 93-95dB/2.83V is enough for 3-6m listening position. Coaxials from Genelec’s One series and KEF’s Blade/Reference Meta series on the other hand meet the criteria of smooth frequency response and directivity and low HD/IMD.
From what I see, there are no coaxials available off the shelf that have super smooth and flat frequency response, low HD/IMD for BOTH the MF and HF elements.
PA drivers use larger lighter moving masses, strong magnetic systems, for 100+dB/2.83V sensitivity and high maximum SPL. They sacrifice some smoothness in amplitude response.
But for home hi-fi 93-95dB/2.83V is enough for 3-6m listening position. Coaxials from Genelec’s One series and KEF’s Blade/Reference Meta series on the other hand meet the criteria of smooth frequency response and directivity and low HD/IMD.
From what I see, there are no coaxials available off the shelf that have super smooth and flat frequency response, low HD/IMD for BOTH the MF and HF elements.
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If you read the Kef patents on their coaxials you will see there is a huge amount of engineering effort on elements like the phase plug and surround. For the DIY'er the easier approach are MEH.
Me experienced: Tannoy ( whole studio 90's range, from 15" to 6,5"- currently listening to 8"), heard the 'big' Genelec, some Urei 'time aligned' ( Altec based), Presonus Scepter, Cabasse, a bunch of p.a. ( Eminence, Bms, B&C,Beyma,..)... did i said i like coax? 🙂
I've got a pair of Kef drivers since this morning too ( not heard them still).
My experience with PA drivers with dsp is they are in same league as the big Tannoy's ( my prefered) but don't go as low. Anyway i don't see the point not to use them 3way as relieving the mid from bass duty just brings goods to any coax ( 250hz xover and up).
The spl isn't the point with 12" (and up) p.a., the directivity is for me... And the dynamic. That said some are better ( Beyma ( sadly the one i liked seems eol), Bms, B&C) than others ( Eminence). Really liked BMS 12c362 i've heard. Some Faital 10" seems to be liked by some members here too.
Hf... yes response are ragged. I don't care ( it doesn't bother me as some 2" cd+horn ( high, high end... TAD) did in my youth) and if there wasn't those 'scarying' and horrible measurements you would probably not too.
Compared to typical horn or meh: Mark 100 once said coax sound more 'diffuse' in hf ( direct comparison). I agree with that definition. Up to anyone to hear by themself if it matter to you or not ( music genre you listen to play a role ime).
I've got a pair of Kef drivers since this morning too ( not heard them still).
My experience with PA drivers with dsp is they are in same league as the big Tannoy's ( my prefered) but don't go as low. Anyway i don't see the point not to use them 3way as relieving the mid from bass duty just brings goods to any coax ( 250hz xover and up).
The spl isn't the point with 12" (and up) p.a., the directivity is for me... And the dynamic. That said some are better ( Beyma ( sadly the one i liked seems eol), Bms, B&C) than others ( Eminence). Really liked BMS 12c362 i've heard. Some Faital 10" seems to be liked by some members here too.
Hf... yes response are ragged. I don't care ( it doesn't bother me as some 2" cd+horn ( high, high end... TAD) did in my youth) and if there wasn't those 'scarying' and horrible measurements you would probably not too.
Compared to typical horn or meh: Mark 100 once said coax sound more 'diffuse' in hf ( direct comparison). I agree with that definition. Up to anyone to hear by themself if it matter to you or not ( music genre you listen to play a role ime).
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Angry Fat Cat,
Altec is still availlable under a different name ( same tooling used as in 'good old days').
But it cost a HUGE amount of $! Even more if you are not located in USA.
15":
https://greatplainsaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/604_8H_III.pdf
https://greatplainsaudio.com/products-2/604-8e-alnico-magnet-includes-n604-8a-crossover/
12"
https://greatplainsaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/212_8A.pdf
Let's dance Samba! ( i'm not into Futchball... however much more into Carnival!) 😉
Altec is still availlable under a different name ( same tooling used as in 'good old days').
But it cost a HUGE amount of $! Even more if you are not located in USA.
15":
https://greatplainsaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/604_8H_III.pdf
https://greatplainsaudio.com/products-2/604-8e-alnico-magnet-includes-n604-8a-crossover/
12"
https://greatplainsaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/212_8A.pdf
Let's dance Samba! ( i'm not into Futchball... however much more into Carnival!) 😉
I know this isn’t the thread for it but I for one would love to hear about this. Might you consider a new thread for us?
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