From some reading I've been doing, room treatments can improve the sound stage a lot. Floor bounce seems to be something to look into.
The drivers in the Piccolos are pretty close to each other. Only about 1/4" separating the outside edges of the frames. I've seen some other designs where the outside edges actually overlap slightly.
And this could be very important for future builds. If your point is that for near field listening drivers should be positioned close together, then some of the designs I have been considering should be eliminated. As an example, Jeff Bagby's Kairos has been high on my list, but there is at least 1" of distance between the outside edges of the woofer and tweeter. It seems like that would be going in the wrong direction according to your advice.
If your loudspeakers reproduce well on/off axis, the room reflections should not be contributing in a negative way. It's been said that need for room treatment started with poor performing studio monitors. Their off axis responses didn't track well enough to the on axis and disrupted imaging and sound stage. The room treatments applied there, to improve poor performance, began to seep into the home market.
It's also said that floor bounce seems to be needed. Our brains are used to it and without it stuff just sounds weird. Makes sense since we've always had something under our feet.
It's also said that floor bounce seems to be needed. Our brains are used to it and without it stuff just sounds weird. Makes sense since we've always had something under our feet.
Minimonitors place the drivers very close together. They become a point source in the near field. So, yeah, your small Piccolos fit the bill. I recall you initial description and I believe I recommended that you try near field listening. I guess crossing over in front of you didn't work... that's fine, the BBC LS3/5 line seems to like that, it's an old Martin Colloms trick ( Stereophile ).
Coaxials and widebanders also fit the bill.
Hmm... planar line drivers also work quite well.
Thinking outside the box, the Mini Maggie system might work as well. I've heard it and, even though it's meant to work as a desktop, I heard in on stands in the near field in a small room and it was awesome. Of course, the Maggie LRS might also work. Just make sure to give them 2 feet behind them and pretty much place them as you have your Piccolos. It might be the "bass slam" you want. However, you will need a much more powerful amp. Being dipoles they do not get much in the way of side wall reflections.
https://magnepan.com/collections/floor-standing/products/magnepan-lrs
https://magnepan.com/products/mini-maggie-system?_pos=11&_sid=94caaacce&_ss=r
The larger size will mean that you will have a "taller" image, which might satisfy your need for a "bigger" orchestra. The bass nature of the speakers means not very deep bass (good) but a large flat waveform with that "fast" bass that gives the timpani its sound (you can hear the room being energized at a low level by the bass).
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I don’t buy this argument but perhaps it’s because I’ve been to many shows at small to medium-sized clubs where I was fairly close to the stage, near a kick drum (I used earplugs). There are genres of music where boundry issues such as floor bounce are easier to ignore but well-recorded rock drumming is not one of them. So whether or not it’s an issue really depends on one’s listening preferences.
Taking you literally, you’ve must have been spared watching Slipknot footage:
If I am to take you at your implied point, I can only assume you have never been to a show where one is free to position themselves as close to the performers as they desire. The sort of shows I’m referring to are either the sort where one can just walk up to the stage which is about three feet higher in level than that of the general audience, or shows where there is no stage at all and the kick drum is on the floor itself. On no occasion have I been to a show where the kick drum is elevated on a pedestal like a bookshelf loudspeaker.
Repeating myself but given your fondness for the piccolo and your aversion to room treatments, I think a Jeff Bagby design using a waveguide would be your best bet. According to Jeff himself, his Helios design may have been his best design ever. The Helios uses a tweeter with a waveguide (albeit a beamy one) and a 9.5” woofer, which also checks your box for increased Sd. This was one of his last loudspeaker designs.
My kid used to have a garage band.
NO audio system ever comes close to a band with a drum kit. NONE.
An audio system can come close to say, a acoustic bluegrass group, perhaps a violin/viola/cello quartet. Maybe a woodwind.
Heck, an audio system will start to strain to play back a good acoustic contrabass...
Forget brass instruments
Forget a piano. Maybe from row M, yes, but a piano played in your room? Forget about it. (We had a piano in our room...).
Absolutely forget a large symphony orchestra playing forte, fortissimo.... do you think you can replay The Berlin, the Vienna, Philharmonia, LA, Chicago in your living room? How about The Orquesta Sinfónica de Madrid playing the Prelude to La Boda De Luis Alonso...
And only the finest can do a triangle or cymbal.
I gotta say that my DIY A2s and Maggies come very close to the cymbal.... thanks Nelson.
Audio systems are nice, but never the real thing... so, I keep wondering why we bother with such discussions.
Now, a discussion on bourbons...
Oh, in the background, I got the Sansui on Tidal HiFi... Clapton's Unplugged.. Layla just came on... now, that is done nicely by the audio system.
NO audio system ever comes close to a band with a drum kit. NONE.
An audio system can come close to say, a acoustic bluegrass group, perhaps a violin/viola/cello quartet. Maybe a woodwind.
Heck, an audio system will start to strain to play back a good acoustic contrabass...
Forget brass instruments
Forget a piano. Maybe from row M, yes, but a piano played in your room? Forget about it. (We had a piano in our room...).
Absolutely forget a large symphony orchestra playing forte, fortissimo.... do you think you can replay The Berlin, the Vienna, Philharmonia, LA, Chicago in your living room? How about The Orquesta Sinfónica de Madrid playing the Prelude to La Boda De Luis Alonso...
And only the finest can do a triangle or cymbal.
I gotta say that my DIY A2s and Maggies come very close to the cymbal.... thanks Nelson.
Audio systems are nice, but never the real thing... so, I keep wondering why we bother with such discussions.
Now, a discussion on bourbons...
Oh, in the background, I got the Sansui on Tidal HiFi... Clapton's Unplugged.. Layla just came on... now, that is done nicely by the audio system.
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You’re missing the salient point; it was asserted that floor bounce is not an issue because it is something we are accustomed to with regards to the acoustics of a live performance. Whether a multi-channel recording is capable of being an acoustic simulacra of a live event is separate discussion, despite any technical overlap.
In my youth I used to do live PA and recording... so, trust me on this... floor bounce does little for the faithful reproduction of a live performance. What we need for a live performance is Power Response and that takes Kilowatts! A drum kit routinely reaches 120 db... good luck getting that out of your speakers.
I'm sure they sound great, but at almost $2,000 per pair they are not on my list right now. I have to believe that there is something for a lot less that will still be very satisfactory in my room. Just need to find it. Thanks.
Besides missing the point again, I’m not even sure why those levels would even be desirable in a domestic listening space. Not all of us are using inefficient bookshelf cone-and-dome designs; a co-entrant horn mated to a 15” pro woofer can reach those levels with an amplifier capable of 250 watts and high-fidelity 500 watt amplifiers exist if more were needed. And yes, I too have recorded live shows and toured with bands and been in a band etc…
Given who designed these loudspeakers and your aversion to room treatments, I’m not sure why these would be off your list except for cost (which is a perfectly reasonable disqualifier) but you did state expense was not an issue. Loudspeakers with waveguides are the safest bet for people averse to room treatments; well, aside from moving your listening space outdoors.
Well, I'm not exactly sure how I phrased it, but expense is always somewhat of an issue. I'm thinking more in the $500 to $1,000 range rather than the $2,000 level. The latter being possible, but only if really necessary and as a last resort.
However, I like your suggestion to consider waveguides in order to eliminate room treatments. I had not been aware of that potential trade off before. Something worth looking into. Will add it to the list.
You are playing games here. At low and mid levels, the room doesn't even resonate, so floor -and walls and ceiling- reflections do not come into play at all. The only way those reflections and resonances come into play is when played LOUD ( or just loud if in you live in a glass house... I'd suppose ).
In a small room, you'd be surprised how loud a small speaker can sound with just a few watts. This entire thread is not about LOUD speakers in big rooms.. and, no, you are NOT going to recreate live music... no matter if you were to shoehorn The Dead's Wall Of Sound into your room.
And, no, I am not missing the point... I'm actually on point. I used to PA bluegrass, classical and jazz... mostly all of it acoustic. Not just a LOUD band with an overly heavy hand at the volume of the PA board and the cabs.
Besides, a jazz quarter, with a drum kit... no way, NO WAY you can get that to play in your house. Nevermind a saxophone. And the OP wants to achieve a realistic "image" of a symphonic orchestra... which, he is not gonna get in a small room.
I'm beginning to understand the OP's frustration. Stop telling me that I'm wrong and that I'm missing the point. All you're doing is being adversarial when, in reality, I could make the same accusation at your arguments and I dare say I would be much more correct.
I think I would call it more uncertainty than frustration. These responses have actually been quite helpful to me, and I appreciate them. Even the ones that don't seem to be directly related to my initial post.
It's obvious that the responses to this topic can be broad ranging and represent divergent views. Gives me a lot to learn about.
There is no big hurry to get this done. I'd rather understand the options fully and try to get it right than jumping from one approach to another.
And I'm hoping that there are some other people with similar questions that are getting something out of this even though they may not posting anything.
It's obvious that the responses to this topic can be broad ranging and represent divergent views. Gives me a lot to learn about.
There is no big hurry to get this done. I'd rather understand the options fully and try to get it right than jumping from one approach to another.
And I'm hoping that there are some other people with similar questions that are getting something out of this even though they may not posting anything.
Do you have a chance to borrow / rent some speakers to test? Maybe a good full range or coaxial (KEF) would add what you are missing. Horns/waveguides also work well. Kali LP6 or Behringer 2030 are dirt cheap even new and are quite good examples of what a waveguide can do.
Are you in SoCal?
I got a spare pair of Acoustic Energy AE1s and a spare set of Maggie 12s. Plus a nice, spare too, Conrad Johnson MF2100. If that won't fix your problems, then, I dunno what will.
My personal view an 3D-Soundstage:
There are two dimensions in Music-Recordings:
Left-Right (Stereo-Panorama)
Front-Back (depth-graduation)
Stereo-Panorama sorted importance:
- Position of speakers in the room and listening position.
- Respect rules of Stereo-Triangle
- Make sure the speakers have (if possible) the same distances to the side walls
- Speakers not too close to rear wall.
- Acoustical room treatment:
- Minimum is to put acoustical absorbers on the first reflection points of side walls and wall behind speaker following the mirror method
- Speaker Quality
- Speaker Dispersion (Especially 'horitzontal Dispersion' for stereo panorama)
- should be constant over all angles
- A wide Dispersion will result in a wider soundstage but might be less focused (more difficult to seperate single audio events from each other)
- A smaller dispersion (like speakers with waveguides) will result in a more focused but not so wide soundstage
- It often depends on personal preferences
- 'Matched' Frequency responce of left and right speakers
- Speaker Dispersion (Especially 'horitzontal Dispersion' for stereo panorama)
- Amp / Pre-Amp / DAC:
- Should be able to have a good left-right channel seperation
- Cables, Power Supply:
- has a huge impact, but only on full moon nights
Often this psycho acoustical effect is 'created' in the studio by using reverb, delays, eq, compression or by using a special miking in combination with the recording room. If the recording and mixing is done well, you will get the illusion that some event are closer to the listener and others further away.
Sorted by imortance:
- Avoiding reflection from your room. Move your speaker into near field.
- The source material needs to be produced well. If the information is missing in the recording it will never come back.
- Having a good speaker with a constant on axis and energy frequency responce.
- Also the ability of the speaker to reproduce deep base (down to ~40 Hz) will increase the illusion of depth.
- Low distortion of speaker, also low intermodulation distortion is useful to seperate critical sound events (like reverbs or hall effects)
- Tread your room also in the base area to make sure that room modes will not overlap the critical midrange.
- A nice amp/DAC/... might change a bit (often more psychological than audible). Keep in mind: even the professional Studio Monitors like Neumann, Genelec,..., where the Music was procued on, are active speakers with very cheap chip-amps inside (but of course well integrated)
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