All Denon AVRs offer a "Pure Direct" mode that bypasses all EQ and processing.
Here is another one by Paul and more relevant to your situation:
https://www.psaudio.com/askpaulvideo/creating-a-soundstage-in-a-small-room/Good luck.
I know 😉 But sadly, I do not think that it works as good as using a "pure" stereo product. I have never heard a surround product produce stereo as "openly" or "freely" as any stereo product. Something goes on in those surround boxes, that do not benefit stereo.... what? I don't know 😕
Expectation bias. They're really quite good, but if you look at them as overly complicated cheap junk, that's exactly what you'll always hear. When you're in "Pure Direct", nothing is "going on". Denon even has a mode that shuts down the display in case it might introduce noise.
There are good and bad products in both categories. There are some seriously under-designed stereo beasts too.
Absolutely a possible case - agree. But I haven't tried all gear in the world, and I do not see them as cheap junk - never even wrote that 😉 I just tried hard through the years to find a surround product that could fulfill my needs for both music and movies. Never really got satisfied until I settled on stereo. True, that surround is awesome for movies, and maybe it's that simple, that the price we are willing to pay for a surround product, does not really reflect the complexity, compared to how cheap a stereo product can be, and still be very good.
Again - if the OP has a chance to try a different amplifier. Then possibly this could add to the clarity of his goal/wish. Even though I do know that it also might rise more questions than settling answers.
Just curious...did you ever try real 5.1 music?
We've beat this to death. Some feel a different amp would make a huge difference. I don't agree. Amps might make a tiny difference, at best a slightly audible one, but there's nothing about an amp that can affect "soundstage". But that's just my opinion, based on doing ABX/DBT testing. But what the heck do I know?
No... I chose to pursue stereo, rather than climb deeper into more speakers, amplifiers and surround in general. It might sound fine, but I found it too complicated with all the things I also want to do in my life. Stereo is great for me.
I agree that most amplifiers sound the same - no sound only amplification, and at the same time I think I have to admit an error on my behalf 😳 "sound stage" is an acoustical phenomenon, not an amplifier issue.
I will claim this, though. Some amplifiers do have way less noise/hiss, much better damping/control of the drivers and overall less distortion which are heard when the amplifier is pushed or speakers are simply a tough load. But this does not seem to be of any importance in the OP's case 👍
I don't know what you know... so can't help you there 😉
To me it's very helpful. It answers the often-asked question of how much toe-in should be used for the best sound stage results.
I agree, everyone should watch that video you recommended, if only to watch from 3:50 on. ClassicalFan, if you are secretly trolling us, this has to be one of the best trolls I’ve ever seen on here. My hat’s off to you.
I made it to the end, a lot of fascinating information, It is hard to disagree with the room followed by the speakers as the biggest influence on the sound stage and imagining if I actually understand what those terms mean. But there was mention of what creates these things being an allusion that our brains create. It seems this part was passed over very quickly but I find incredibly interesting for personal reasons. I only realized that my brain worked differently than most people I know in the last few years, actually I knew it, but I didn't understand how it is different. By asking everyone I know a simple question I figured it, "Do you see a picture in your mind when you think of something?" Their answers surprised me and my answer startled everyone, I don't don't see any pictures and every one I spoke to did. They asked what do I see? Nothing, I just think about the object, face or what ever. This thread made me look at this more and what I have (actually what I am) is called aphantasia and about 2% of the population have it. Why I bring this up here is it turns out to be more than a lack of "Mind's Eye" it goes to all senses. Reading about it revealed to me that I don't have a voice in my head either and the other 98% hear their own voice when they think. Finally I will get to my point, for the last 50 years I have been buying audio equipment, placing speakers try to get the promised 3D sound with little or no results, so I think that my brain is incapable of building the illusion. I don't know if this true or not, but I would be interested to find out if anybody reading this is the same as me. Don't get me wrong, being wired like this is fine with me, I have been thinking circles around my peers all my life and look at this as a gift, not a handicap. It would be great if I could experience reproduced sound like everyone else, but I still enjoy what I hear, but a lot of descriptions I read about others experiences have always left me wondering. The way this thread has wandered I don't feel I'm derailing it in any way.
The advice may apply to his room, he appears to suggest it applies to all, but this is not the case. It appears to draw on limited types of speaker. Look around this site for wider opinions about toe in.
In addition, I don't think the original question was properly answered. The speaker itself wasn't brought into question.
In addition, I don't think the original question was properly answered. The speaker itself wasn't brought into question.
Actually, the most important part is before 3:50 where Paul talks about toe-in.
And no, I'm not trolling. Just trying to find the best answers for my listening enjoyment and maybe help someone else along the way.
Ha, I just watched both videos. Well, buy the book is what the first one is all about.
However I do agree that the less toe-in the better. But it is totally dependent on the room. And in a very small room toe in is just inevitable for decent sound.
However I do agree that the less toe-in the better. But it is totally dependent on the room. And in a very small room toe in is just inevitable for decent sound.
to increase imaging the best way to do it is room acoustics treatment.
1. Absorb and diffuse first reflections
2. absorb the wall behind your listening seat
3. absorb and diffuse ceiling (as big as you can), which means hanging a diffuser (BAD for example as it absorbs too) and drop it 5-10cm from your ceiling
i have just realised that you dont want to do room treatments. please ignore my last post.
Here is another video from Paul McGowen on sound diffusion and absorption that may be of interest to people following this thread.
While I have already taken the position that I don't intend to do any room treatments, the fact that many people do them is still important. My reason for not considering them is essentially based on aesthetics. I don't want to look at them regardless of any difference that they might make in the sound. On one side wall the panel would have to cover up a window and I'm not willing to do that. Some people might think that is not a good trade-off, but it is the one I am making at this point.
While I have already taken the position that I don't intend to do any room treatments, the fact that many people do them is still important. My reason for not considering them is essentially based on aesthetics. I don't want to look at them regardless of any difference that they might make in the sound. On one side wall the panel would have to cover up a window and I'm not willing to do that. Some people might think that is not a good trade-off, but it is the one I am making at this point.
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Just imagine you have an F1 car and race in a dirt track.....
The sound reproduction that you're hearing is a product of a device and the room where the device is.
As you ask for a specific recommendation of spatial imaging improvements, ime and imho there's no other remedy than to tune your room to minimised first and late reflections.
The sound reproduction that you're hearing is a product of a device and the room where the device is.
As you ask for a specific recommendation of spatial imaging improvements, ime and imho there's no other remedy than to tune your room to minimised first and late reflections.
What I've asked for is to increase the size - height, width, and depth - of the sound stage. I'm not particularly interested in imaging improvements.
And I'm not convinced that room treatments can accomplish what I want. In fact, I can see where too much absorption could actually decrease the size of the sound stage.
Please keep in mind that I listen almost entirely to classical music. That's a lot different from girl and guitar.