Starting a new project. I'd like to make something with a very fast decay from 500hz-5000hz. No bumps in the GD would also be nice.
Step one is to make lots of sims! Right now I am comparing XO's and driver spacing for the Satori md60n and BlieSMa t34b. The data is from hificompass and that is tossed through vcad's baffle sim.
The spacing and baffle shape is a little different for each image. All of the sims use a baffle with a 44mm edge radius. Also, some XO's might be crossing at impossible spots due to distortion or the FS. My main focus was to get the phase locked in and see what I could see. I don't know how much ceiling nulls matter at a frequencies where there is a head shadow? My eye likes r7 and r8.
I'll make a few more sims and look into my second and third choice mids.
fake sims of the t34b + md60n:
Step one is to make lots of sims! Right now I am comparing XO's and driver spacing for the Satori md60n and BlieSMa t34b. The data is from hificompass and that is tossed through vcad's baffle sim.
The spacing and baffle shape is a little different for each image. All of the sims use a baffle with a 44mm edge radius. Also, some XO's might be crossing at impossible spots due to distortion or the FS. My main focus was to get the phase locked in and see what I could see. I don't know how much ceiling nulls matter at a frequencies where there is a head shadow? My eye likes r7 and r8.
I'll make a few more sims and look into my second and third choice mids.
fake sims of the t34b + md60n:
Very 'fast' decay = over-damped = < (0.5 Qt/AKA transient perfect) whereas your sims are ~max flat/~0.707 Qt (AKA 'critically' damped), so need to either completely re-think your goal and/or how to achieve it, i.e. 1st order acoustic and/or electronic XOs.
😀Indeed! 'Preaching to the choir' 😉, though done right it can be achieved with point source multi-ways too.
I own some jbl 580 horns and they rock. I love them for movies.
I have not messed with ribbons. The viawave srt-7 does look sweet but I would have to cross higher. Maybe next project. I find a dome more appealing for longevity since dust cannot get inside it.
For this project, domes and cones are the parts. The scanspeak 10f was my second pic mid for my last project and I want to make a sim with it too. Also, the satori mw19tx is also something I am interested in. I have heard hifijim's textremes and they are super fun and easy on the ears. The SBA CAC woofer is nice too.
My preference is to have whatever drivers are making 500hz-5000hz be on the same baffle to keep that as small as possible and move the woofers behind it. The front HF baffle would just be a few sheets with no box if I go with the satori dome. Really, this will look just like my current project except the drivers are 300-400mm apart c-to-c. I will use the same edge. Maybe less tape 😛. (i really need to wrap up my 1st speaker).
I have not messed with ribbons. The viawave srt-7 does look sweet but I would have to cross higher. Maybe next project. I find a dome more appealing for longevity since dust cannot get inside it.
For this project, domes and cones are the parts. The scanspeak 10f was my second pic mid for my last project and I want to make a sim with it too. Also, the satori mw19tx is also something I am interested in. I have heard hifijim's textremes and they are super fun and easy on the ears. The SBA CAC woofer is nice too.
My preference is to have whatever drivers are making 500hz-5000hz be on the same baffle to keep that as small as possible and move the woofers behind it. The front HF baffle would just be a few sheets with no box if I go with the satori dome. Really, this will look just like my current project except the drivers are 300-400mm apart c-to-c. I will use the same edge. Maybe less tape 😛. (i really need to wrap up my 1st speaker).
That Satori MD60-N isn't going to satisfy your needs IMO. Its not as clean as you think and can't cope with a lower xover point unless your ok with higher THD. I would use a good cone mid instead or wait for the Bliesma 75mm domes.
I agree with profiguy, the combination of new Bliesma 3" (Silk, Be, Al) + 1" looks very interesting
Bliesma 3" + Viawave SRT-7 would also be interesting
Bliesma 3" + Viawave SRT-7 would also be interesting
Thanks for the warning and advice, @profiguy. Wassup, Dreg54. I planned a baffle for a bliesma dome and I've been holding off on this project until I saw the specs. I think I am ok passing on them. We all have our check-boxes and they just don't check mine. I own a t25b already so that does not help either.
The distortion of my ETON mid is higher than the satori dome and I have no distortion issues with how loud I play. ( I'm around 85db max at 1m. Normally in the 70's). I am kinda assuming distortion for the new dome will be the same.
I guess I should have stated how loud I listen in the 1st post.
Here is a measurement of my desk 3way with a t25b + eton mid. What I would like to see on my next box is the 500hz to 5000hz range all have a 1ms decay down -30db.
The distortion of my ETON mid is higher than the satori dome and I have no distortion issues with how loud I play. ( I'm around 85db max at 1m. Normally in the 70's). I am kinda assuming distortion for the new dome will be the same.
I guess I should have stated how loud I listen in the 1st post.
The decay around 1.6-2khz on the satori dome? Is that what you mean?
Here is a measurement of my desk 3way with a t25b + eton mid. What I would like to see on my next box is the 500hz to 5000hz range all have a 1ms decay down -30db.
My issue with the MD60-N is the odd order HD between 800 and 1200 Hz. Its audible at the levels you will be listening at and the culprit may be the rear chamber. I returned a set of these a few months ago because I could hear the distortion using just a low level sine sweep straight from my signal gen, which will directly wqdrive a dome like that to just over 80 dB. If you scour the web, their are some measuremnets and reviews backing up my concerns and its mainly 5th order harmonic content.
Comparing the MD60N to other mid dome drivers, it sounds congested around the lower end even when crossed steep around 1 k. I can run the Morel MDM55 lower than this and it still has lower HD all around. Even the $30 HiVi DMB-A dome plays cleaner in this regard. I suspect removing the rear chamber on the MD60N would help alot, but I didn't want to risk doing this and no longer be able to return them.
Thanks for writing all that up and sharing your experience, @profiguy .Sounds like you've been around the block a few times with mids!
Did you happen to measure the md60n? The waterfall or REW decay graph would be neat to see.
I have taken audio hearing tests and used apps that add distortion to music. I can't hear problems when they are greater than -30db down.
Did you happen to measure the md60n? The waterfall or REW decay graph would be neat to see.
I have taken audio hearing tests and used apps that add distortion to music. I can't hear problems when they are greater than -30db down.
Shouldn't music mask this perception? AKA "the masking effect" I don't doubt you heard something. I do doubt how relevant a tone is compared to music when it comes to human percepton.
I listen to alot of piano music and that in itself will reveal many distortion issues more than most other types of music. Test signals are my go to source for auditioning a driver's midrange character along with other negative traits. There are some driver's that do poorly on sinewave sweeps and still can sound musical when employed correctly, so yes I do agree with you in that regard. Dome mids usually get notch filtered for primary resonance peak suppression, which does wonders for cleaning up odd order HD and allows the driver to be crossed lower and play cleaner. It does come at the cost of extra parts when designing the xover but the results are very noticeable, sometimes allowing you to use a driver that measures poorly down low and looks otherwise unusable without treatment of the primary resonance.
I don't have any measurements on the MD60-N, mainly because i don't save anything I don't use. Its a shame this mid isn't up to my expectations since it would have filled a good niche in the sparse mid dome market. I understand why mid dome choices are scarce, mainly.because there are so many decent cone drivers that cover the need, but I still feel large mid domes have an edge in the upper mids that a cone driver lacks. I'm a faithful fan of the 3" SS D7608-9200 dome, which does some amazing things with acoustic music considering the price and it doesn't receive the respect it deserves in this regard. It has limited low midrange capability but playing with the rear camber volume,.dampening and crossover can make it shine combined with the right supporting drivers. Volt and ATC 3" domes are obviously a step up, but they are out of reach for most people. IMO the 3" SS dome does about 80 percent of what the others can and is less than a 1/6th of the cost. I haven't found a cone driver yet that is as musical sounding in the 1 to 4 kHz range, especially if you tend to listen to alot of acoustic material. Solo cello, alto sax, flute and piano are good tests for revealing this. Plus PMC uses a version of this driver in their 3 way designs, so it can't be that bad.
I don't have any measurements on the MD60-N, mainly because i don't save anything I don't use. Its a shame this mid isn't up to my expectations since it would have filled a good niche in the sparse mid dome market. I understand why mid dome choices are scarce, mainly.because there are so many decent cone drivers that cover the need, but I still feel large mid domes have an edge in the upper mids that a cone driver lacks. I'm a faithful fan of the 3" SS D7608-9200 dome, which does some amazing things with acoustic music considering the price and it doesn't receive the respect it deserves in this regard. It has limited low midrange capability but playing with the rear camber volume,.dampening and crossover can make it shine combined with the right supporting drivers. Volt and ATC 3" domes are obviously a step up, but they are out of reach for most people. IMO the 3" SS dome does about 80 percent of what the others can and is less than a 1/6th of the cost. I haven't found a cone driver yet that is as musical sounding in the 1 to 4 kHz range, especially if you tend to listen to alot of acoustic material. Solo cello, alto sax, flute and piano are good tests for revealing this. Plus PMC uses a version of this driver in their 3 way designs, so it can't be that bad.
@profiguy WOW thanks again!
I am now getting a better idea of what I am looking for in a driver. I think the BL to MMS ratio and the FS are where I need to look.
Ok, I will try it with some sims. The sims below are for the md60n.
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The first XO's I posted was me really focussing on >1000hz. If I take into account the FS of the md60n then things look different:
I don't think I want 3 drivers playing 1000hz and my baffle needs work.
I am now getting a better idea of what I am looking for in a driver. I think the BL to MMS ratio and the FS are where I need to look.
Ha! I was about to ask you about that dome and was eyeballing it last night. It sorta performs between a md60n and the m74s. It has the lowest FS of the bunch.
Ok, I will try it with some sims. The sims below are for the md60n.
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The first XO's I posted was me really focussing on >1000hz. If I take into account the FS of the md60n then things look different:
I don't think I want 3 drivers playing 1000hz and my baffle needs work.
Yes, it looks like you have too much driver overlap there. Sim-ing the drivers is a great way to start but I'd recommend not paying too close attention to that at first when using the SS D7608. You need to factor in the correct rear chamber on this driver first to get the Qts down and clean up the low end rolloff to smooth out the overall driver response. The factory graph posted by SS looks pretty bad and that is also without a much needed rear chamber.
You can easily take that 3" SS dome down to 700 - 800 Hz with a shallower HP at the levels you are intending to use it at. Its mainly an excursion limitation issue with higher spl requirements, but it will need the correct rear chamber - do not run it open. It needs a small chamber with wool dampening, ideally around 350 cc. You'll need to play with the stuffing density to get the Qts down closer to .8 for best results. Yes, it will come down that far if you get it right and will cost you a tiny bit of low end extension, but the reward will be really great midrange. Thats really the trick to using this dome and most people don't pay enough attention to the rear chamber. Some even run it as a dipole in an open baffle, which doesn't work that well IMO.
The first time I used the D7608 SS dome in a 3 way build was a totally disappointing experience and I chalked it up as a failure thinking the driver was not that great. It took me a while to figure out what I did wrong with this driver and the thing that opened my eyes was hearing some older model PMC speakers using this dome. The mids were in a totally different class and it was all about the rear chambering.
You can also try a TL style chamber but as long as you bring down that high Qts, you'll be fine. The sheep's wool in a small sealed chamber works just fine.
You can easily take that 3" SS dome down to 700 - 800 Hz with a shallower HP at the levels you are intending to use it at. Its mainly an excursion limitation issue with higher spl requirements, but it will need the correct rear chamber - do not run it open. It needs a small chamber with wool dampening, ideally around 350 cc. You'll need to play with the stuffing density to get the Qts down closer to .8 for best results. Yes, it will come down that far if you get it right and will cost you a tiny bit of low end extension, but the reward will be really great midrange. Thats really the trick to using this dome and most people don't pay enough attention to the rear chamber. Some even run it as a dipole in an open baffle, which doesn't work that well IMO.
The first time I used the D7608 SS dome in a 3 way build was a totally disappointing experience and I chalked it up as a failure thinking the driver was not that great. It took me a while to figure out what I did wrong with this driver and the thing that opened my eyes was hearing some older model PMC speakers using this dome. The mids were in a totally different class and it was all about the rear chambering.
You can also try a TL style chamber but as long as you bring down that high Qts, you'll be fine. The sheep's wool in a small sealed chamber works just fine.
It is because of you. 😛 I tried to factor in your review of the driver and the mid's FS. I figured since you did not like the sound, why not make it a total filler mid.
If I use steeper slopes then I get delays and nulls in the midrange and I wanted to avoid those for this particular XO.
Because it can play lower? I can merge the T/S param curves for the lower frequencies.
I will try an xo that is 20db-30db down at the FS as an extreme.
I have melamine, acousta-stuf, felt, and some alpaca fiber to try. But this has me thinking: if I am going to make the SS D7608 a nice box, why not do the same for the md60n like you suggested a few posts back? I wonder what goes away when it is not sitting in a cone.
I've not disassembled the MD60-N, so I don't know if you can run a different chamber without the factory one needing to be in place for structural or retaining needs of the moving assembly. I believe the elevated distortion issues are a result of limited xmax and possibly motor drive asymmetry, which can be a common issue with neo motor drivers.
Plugging in the factory TS of the D7608 into sims won't get you proper results because of changes made of Qms and therfor Qts with a heavily dampened chamber. That will radically change the low end rolloff and make any sim unpredictable without measuring the driver first after chamber mods are in place. I've managed to get Qts down to .7 on my D7608s just with stuffing and a smaller 350cc chamber made from ABS plumbing parts.
I agree that running filter slopes more shallow is beneficial for lower phase delay, but the resulting overlap is going to ruin off axis summing. Running it as a filler a la B&O can only work under very specific conditions which may be pushing the D7608 too hard down low. I've considered this type of arrangement myself but abandoned it in favor or LR2 electrical slopes for better power handling, driver integration and power response. If you do an notch around the primary Fs and modify rear dampening, you may be able to pull off the filler driver arrangement. Its just too spl limited for my tastes. Many guys run LR4 slopes with these types of mid drivers but thats too much phase shift for my liking and it sounds like you aren't open to that either which I can understand. My only other suggestion would be trying the Volt VM753 which is far more expensive, but it can cope with a 500 hz HP if you treat the Fs peak.
Plugging in the factory TS of the D7608 into sims won't get you proper results because of changes made of Qms and therfor Qts with a heavily dampened chamber. That will radically change the low end rolloff and make any sim unpredictable without measuring the driver first after chamber mods are in place. I've managed to get Qts down to .7 on my D7608s just with stuffing and a smaller 350cc chamber made from ABS plumbing parts.
I agree that running filter slopes more shallow is beneficial for lower phase delay, but the resulting overlap is going to ruin off axis summing. Running it as a filler a la B&O can only work under very specific conditions which may be pushing the D7608 too hard down low. I've considered this type of arrangement myself but abandoned it in favor or LR2 electrical slopes for better power handling, driver integration and power response. If you do an notch around the primary Fs and modify rear dampening, you may be able to pull off the filler driver arrangement. Its just too spl limited for my tastes. Many guys run LR4 slopes with these types of mid drivers but thats too much phase shift for my liking and it sounds like you aren't open to that either which I can understand. My only other suggestion would be trying the Volt VM753 which is far more expensive, but it can cope with a 500 hz HP if you treat the Fs peak.
How about going active DSP with linear phase crossovers?
Don't know about your requirements for the midrange driver but the SB17NBAC35 has one of the cleanest waterfalls I've seen for a 6". If it's a little too big for you, the SB15NBAC30 is almost as good. The SS 10F beats both but doesn't perform as well, distortion-wise, in the midbass/low midrange.
Don't know about your requirements for the midrange driver but the SB17NBAC35 has one of the cleanest waterfalls I've seen for a 6". If it's a little too big for you, the SB15NBAC30 is almost as good. The SS 10F beats both but doesn't perform as well, distortion-wise, in the midbass/low midrange.
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I looked into that one. The decay is too slow at 1khz. My ETON cone mid is faster.
I am using hypex fusion plate amps. The fa123.
That does look nice.
Have you heard all three? I am interested in the 10F.
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made some more sims with different curves from the mid to the woofer:
Some of these are impossible- just wanted to see what would happen. The drivers are all in the same spots, just the slope to the woofer and mid are changing.
It is interesting to see the nulls jump around. For the previous rounds I pretty much just used cross-over slopes and a couple second order shelf filters. For these, I used all that plus some EQ.
My preference would be for nulls to be waaay off axis and between 1-2khz.
I'll give it a go when I get to the SS mid sim. Thanks!
The SS 10F is an interesting animal, but THD is way up there for a higher end mid driver. The Volt Vm753 does have some energy storage issues thnaks to the double suspension setup, but the high BL makes up for it. I still think the SS D7806 is a contender for your needs but the xover is the challenge and you need to physically measure it in a modified rear chamber and import that into your sims.