says who?
I have also thought those Tannoy speakers sound simply dreadful.
Lousy bass, horrible shouty midrange and pretty much zilch real detailed treble.
They are 1950s technology dressed up in dandy expensive clothes.
I would beat them to a pulp in every single detail with my own home studio bespoke designed system especially linearity and proper bass response.
Well, everybody in here should beat those dinosaurs...but I must contradict what I said about amps/ speakers...in this case the unknown diy 2a3 amp should play a role as equalizer and limiter
Earl Geddes has written extensively on some reasons why exponential and tractrix horns may produce 'harshness' in the trebles, which negatively impact reproduction of sounds rich in high frequency harmonic content like bowed string instruments (the fundamental tones aren't that high, but if the reproducing speaker accentuates odd order harmonics, string tone can become 'harsh').
It seems oblate-spheroid waveguides on compression drivers can be made to not produce these particular distortions (which Geddes calls "HOMs"). I was interested in diysoundgroup's designs because they use their SEOS waveguides on decent quality CD drivers. However, people talked me out of that. I may still try them, but their home theater designs are all meant to be used with subwoofers for full-range sound. Their home audio (music) designs are all direct radiator types or have very small waveguides, so aren't all that sensitive. They also tend to go pretty low in impedance, which is not what you want for a low watts tube amp. So the search goes on...
JBL makes some interesting contenders these days, using their proprietary waveguides or bi-radial horns. Maybe one of those could be the ticket for a 10Wpc PP UL EL84 amp?
Studio 590 | 250-watt, dual 8" floorstanding loudspeaker
92dB/2.83V/1m
6 ohms
Or 91dB @ 8 ohms?
4349 | 12-inch (300mm) 2-way Studio Monitor Loudspeaker
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EDIT TO ADD -- An SE 2A3 amp is only going to make about 3W max, so I don't know how that would work with most commercially made speakers. On the other hand, it's awfully hard to beat the sound of a good push-pull 2A3 amp. You can get 6W to 8W per channel mostly class A, with usefully low THD and good enough damping factor.
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It reminds me the times of the Blowtorch thread where Lynn Olson exposed extensively his knowledge and 'view' of that kind of system
🙄
Mr Geddes answered to my question: don't you 'use' Classic music to (at least...) test your system ?!
He preferred acoustic (country 😛 ) or amplified/electric to Classic...
That sounds strange...
Mr Geddes answered to my question: don't you 'use' Classic music to (at least...) test your system ?!
He preferred acoustic (country 😛 ) or amplified/electric to Classic...
That sounds strange...
I meant the raw SPL test...the finesse of the system can only be experienced with the instruments playin'.
A piano, a violin, strings together...the horn types...
Not the drummer playin' at real live level (many examples everyday I read about the goal to have a drummer next to you...😱 the usual suspects...)
A piano, a violin, strings together...the horn types...
Not the drummer playin' at real live level (many examples everyday I read about the goal to have a drummer next to you...😱 the usual suspects...)
Ah ah lol I was reading this thread from the beginning and at Page 12 appeared Lyin Olson 😛
Before, I was agreiing totally with GDO😎
Now it's late...seeya!
Before, I was agreiing totally with GDO😎
Now it's late...seeya!
The thing that always amazes me is how many people talk about 'realistic sound pressure levels in the home' as if that was a [good] thing.
I would not want to have a rock band or even a jazz quintet playing in my home at real life SPLs.
Besides, when you're listening to a recording, it's been dynamically compressed so you can enjoy it at lower volume levels, in the home. Most of us don't have fully isolated listening studios where we can play music with sustained 105dB peak levels without having the police called on us.
So it boils down to tonal qualities, which might just be very subjective.
I keep finding that the toughest test of a hi-fi system is playing massed string sections playing big orchestral works. Usually the strings sound fizzy, or just edgy, or shrill, or just plain fuzzy. If you've heard something like the muted strings in Stravinsky's Firebird Suite (for example) you know how complex the sonic texture of massed violins can be. If you love Western concert music, you want to hear that coming through the speakers.
Rock music recordings are so processed, you really have to look at them as home entertainment confections. They're nothing like live music, and that's perfectly okay. I had a pair of Klipsch KG5.2 speakers (2-way ported 10" with the usual square tractrix horn and titanium diaphragm compression driver) that sounded glorious with processed popular music recordings, even of singer-songwriter types with nothing but acoustic and voice. But some recordings, especially simple jazz recordings with male singers like Joe Williams, brought out the evil 800Hz resonance that made these singers and some saxophones sound really strange.
I had a pair of Tannoy T185 that made me happy enough for a good number of years. But they began to sound cloudy, murky and dull. Eventually I got tired of them. I've heard Tannoy Little Gold Monitors, and those are okay, but not exactly high resolution. I've also owned a pair of 1990s Tannoy System 600 studio monitors, which were okay, but edgy and harsh in the upper mids.
So the search went on until I happened on a pair of Snell Type C 3-way floorstanding speakers (91dB/1W/1m, 4 ohms). They're not the be-all and end-all, but they are pleasant. They can be bi-amped, so I had the MF-HF modules powered by PP 2A3 amps, and the LF (10" ported) modules powered by an old Hafler 50W/channel solid state amp. The Hafler is more sensitive than the PP 2A3 amp, so I could use the Hafler amp's front panel level controls to balance the bass with the mids-highs without need of an electronic crossover or anything like that. That setup has a nice sound for string orchestras, Bach violin concertos, that kind of thing. It also sounds really good for small group jazz. However, it's just okay for rock/pop. It lacks the 'in your face' excitement of something like the Klipsch KG5.2.
So I don't know what to tell you. All I can say is that I bought a pair of JBL LSR305 on a whim and I'm still listening to them, with a tube phono preamp. My room is not large (maybe 4m W x 8m L x 2.5m H) and I listen at fairly quiet levels, so it works for me. But it's not a high efficiency speaker for small tube amps.
I don't know... A pair of vintage Snell Acoustics Type C or even Type A (they're BIG)?
--
PS - I went back and read from pg 12 of this thread. Someone mentioned the Audio Note 8" two-way speakers. Well, guess what... Those are basically a copy and magic parts update of the old Snell Acoustics Type EIII speakers. That was a nice Snell with 92dB sensitivity, decent bass, pleasant midrange, a bit of a 10kHz peak. Easy to drive but low impedance, so your little tube amp must be designed to drive a 4 ohm load.
--
I would not want to have a rock band or even a jazz quintet playing in my home at real life SPLs.
Besides, when you're listening to a recording, it's been dynamically compressed so you can enjoy it at lower volume levels, in the home. Most of us don't have fully isolated listening studios where we can play music with sustained 105dB peak levels without having the police called on us.
So it boils down to tonal qualities, which might just be very subjective.
I keep finding that the toughest test of a hi-fi system is playing massed string sections playing big orchestral works. Usually the strings sound fizzy, or just edgy, or shrill, or just plain fuzzy. If you've heard something like the muted strings in Stravinsky's Firebird Suite (for example) you know how complex the sonic texture of massed violins can be. If you love Western concert music, you want to hear that coming through the speakers.
Rock music recordings are so processed, you really have to look at them as home entertainment confections. They're nothing like live music, and that's perfectly okay. I had a pair of Klipsch KG5.2 speakers (2-way ported 10" with the usual square tractrix horn and titanium diaphragm compression driver) that sounded glorious with processed popular music recordings, even of singer-songwriter types with nothing but acoustic and voice. But some recordings, especially simple jazz recordings with male singers like Joe Williams, brought out the evil 800Hz resonance that made these singers and some saxophones sound really strange.
I had a pair of Tannoy T185 that made me happy enough for a good number of years. But they began to sound cloudy, murky and dull. Eventually I got tired of them. I've heard Tannoy Little Gold Monitors, and those are okay, but not exactly high resolution. I've also owned a pair of 1990s Tannoy System 600 studio monitors, which were okay, but edgy and harsh in the upper mids.
So the search went on until I happened on a pair of Snell Type C 3-way floorstanding speakers (91dB/1W/1m, 4 ohms). They're not the be-all and end-all, but they are pleasant. They can be bi-amped, so I had the MF-HF modules powered by PP 2A3 amps, and the LF (10" ported) modules powered by an old Hafler 50W/channel solid state amp. The Hafler is more sensitive than the PP 2A3 amp, so I could use the Hafler amp's front panel level controls to balance the bass with the mids-highs without need of an electronic crossover or anything like that. That setup has a nice sound for string orchestras, Bach violin concertos, that kind of thing. It also sounds really good for small group jazz. However, it's just okay for rock/pop. It lacks the 'in your face' excitement of something like the Klipsch KG5.2.
So I don't know what to tell you. All I can say is that I bought a pair of JBL LSR305 on a whim and I'm still listening to them, with a tube phono preamp. My room is not large (maybe 4m W x 8m L x 2.5m H) and I listen at fairly quiet levels, so it works for me. But it's not a high efficiency speaker for small tube amps.
I don't know... A pair of vintage Snell Acoustics Type C or even Type A (they're BIG)?
--
PS - I went back and read from pg 12 of this thread. Someone mentioned the Audio Note 8" two-way speakers. Well, guess what... Those are basically a copy and magic parts update of the old Snell Acoustics Type EIII speakers. That was a nice Snell with 92dB sensitivity, decent bass, pleasant midrange, a bit of a 10kHz peak. Easy to drive but low impedance, so your little tube amp must be designed to drive a 4 ohm load.
--
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My listening room is only about 10'x12' so I am doing fine with a speaker using Mark Audio CHR-70 full ranges with a 10" Goldwood "OEM" style helper woofer. 8WPC is more than enough in this room. I do supplement with a knocked together subwoofer which helps with my pipe organ fix.
My first OB was just a pair of salvaged 8" full ranges on big sheets of particle board and 1 inch soft domes set on top. Those little cheapies really opened my eyes to OB. I will never forget the day a professional pianist visiting the church stopped by and when I put on some piano concerti she just sat there stunned.
For a larger room I would be looking at a higher efficiency upper driver like the LaVoce MAF061.50 and one or two Eminence Alpha 15s with perhaps a super tweeter. For a little tighter and deeper bass at the expense of the OB bass feel one could use one of the better 15 pro drivers with lower Q in a transmission line for the bottom. For organ music that would be a better fit.
I'm intrigued by OB speaker systems but I don't know if I have a friendly listening space for something like that. The baffles have to be pretty large surface area-wise, and have to be moved out at least a foot or so from the back wall, yes?
@ rongon
Ooohh you decayed in telling your 'experience' with Pieces of hardware 😛
I was doin' a movie in my head of that kind too
About the first part...that's the beauty of sound..errr music reproduction: the capacity to 'fool' the sense of vicinity/loudness.
Want a movie? It's called 'Last Summer' 😀
10" Ciare Woofer refoamed
Audax pm170 and tw 025A16(?)
That's a 3 way in Need of a sub', right?!
The pm 170 needs refoam...hot sticky Summer
Then for easyness It became 10"+ B&C DE07 which I bought to taste the CD, which I used to think bad but now shines .
This Is for outdoor, amplified by an 1982 Pioneer STK equipped... Just to say....lots of spray 😀
Ooohh you decayed in telling your 'experience' with Pieces of hardware 😛
I was doin' a movie in my head of that kind too
About the first part...that's the beauty of sound..errr music reproduction: the capacity to 'fool' the sense of vicinity/loudness.
Want a movie? It's called 'Last Summer' 😀
10" Ciare Woofer refoamed
Audax pm170 and tw 025A16(?)
That's a 3 way in Need of a sub', right?!
The pm 170 needs refoam...hot sticky Summer
Then for easyness It became 10"+ B&C DE07 which I bought to taste the CD, which I used to think bad but now shines .
This Is for outdoor, amplified by an 1982 Pioneer STK equipped... Just to say....lots of spray 😀
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Of course different folks have different definitions of realistic levels and high efficiency. For me realistic levels would be in the audience in the symphony hall not in the middle of the orchestra. Ideally I would like the speakers to be basically loafing as much as possible and I don't want ones that demand high powered SS amps.
I am interested in playing around with horns but I don't really have any personal experience with them as of yet. But you can get some pretty good efficiency (mid 90s or better) with direct radiators so in small to medium size rooms horns may not really be necessary.
I am interested in playing around with horns but I don't really have any personal experience with them as of yet. But you can get some pretty good efficiency (mid 90s or better) with direct radiators so in small to medium size rooms horns may not really be necessary.
The other 'incarnation' of the 3 way system of mine, the goal Is to have a 15", my beloved 30 W 😎 Kenwood K777 woofer(natural pulp color)and audax mid/treble, all OB
It needs a sub' but 1000€ for outdoor fun...I need a quest
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A friend build a pair years ago from the then available kit. He did a nice job, 18mm Baltic Birch finished with cherry veneer. They are pleasant to listen to, bass is a bit bloated and one-notey. Driven by his single ended 300b amps, they would play Classical music ok I guess. Kinda meh.
My old Fostex FE127's had better bass in a Fonken cabinet.
jeff
I made a pair of bass reflex boxes for a pair of Alpair 10 (aluminum cones). I find they sound a bit edgy in the highs, kind of forward sounding. They don't sound as smooth as the JBL LSR305 speakers, so I suspect they don't have a flat and accurate FR. Or maybe I'm hearing cone breakup in the 10kHz to 12kHz area (which is as high as I can hear these days). They are nice sounding, and you don't notice anything wrong until you hear something better. Maybe if I add some baffle step compensation to make them sound more 'full'.
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That depends. My current speakers are about 30"x18". If I needed to run without a sub it would be better to go a little bit larger. 2 to 3 feet from the back wall is best.
I am using the older (I think version 1) orange cone CHRs (pre alpair series) I find them very smooth. If anything I would probably add a super tweeter if I could hear anything over 12K. 😀