Rongon is right that horns for most bass is not that difficult for a reasonably sized room. The last octave and a half from 40 to 16Hz can of course be supplemented with any number of subs including the related transmission line. But you can in fact use horns all the way down to the low C of the 32 foot pedal. It is an architectural solution but it can be done.
double yuck.
I hate B +W, they sound like crap warmed up.
I hate Schoeps, - so acidic and poor on LF.
Add solid state amps to the mix, and you have a headache coming on.
Sounds like those guys didn't have a clue what they were doing!
Go hear out Michael Gerzon on coincident mic techniques - and he was using analogue TAPE!
Our last big "Boheme" production and Matsuyev festival we tried Gerzon's 2 figure of 8s face to face.
It works rather well, so I reckon Blumlein and Gerzon were both British genii.
Here's Gerzon doing a binaural recording using his own head as a dummy! 😀
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There is nothing more difficult to do than live opera, no rehearsal, no time for sound checks, it has to be 100% spot on by theory and experience.
Nailing it, first time, with no fooling around and getting the delay times right, is the real way to do it.
Gerzon on recording:-
So simple and so correct:-
Another one of his fascinating ideas:-
Btw I own 2 calrecs, - the "British Neumann".
They showed up Schoeps as pretty awful mics.
We still have 4 of them at the opera, being some of the most beautiful cardios ever made, which showed up the Neumann KM184 as pretty awful too.
I did a lot of great live recording with calrec, especially the last golden period of Ivry Gitlis (who died last christmas at 98).
So simple and so correct:-
Another one of his fascinating ideas:-
Btw I own 2 calrecs, - the "British Neumann".
They showed up Schoeps as pretty awful mics.
We still have 4 of them at the opera, being some of the most beautiful cardios ever made, which showed up the Neumann KM184 as pretty awful too.
I did a lot of great live recording with calrec, especially the last golden period of Ivry Gitlis (who died last christmas at 98).
Well, back to the original topic...
B&W 801 was used as the standard monitor for classical music recordings in the 1980s and '90s. Telarc Records bragged about using them. I believe Decca used them, and probably EMI, Harmonia Mundi, BIS, etc. I don't know what the go-to classical monitor is these days.
I knew a composer whose home system was a pair of B&W 802 with Bryston amplification. I found it very 'accurate' sounding, but the midrange didn't have much in the way of the fluidity I craved at the time (being a triode-head). I could see making EQ and other decisions based on the sound coming from those B&Ws.
Remember, in a situation like a mastering studio, the speakers are a tool. You learn their characteristics, how they translate to consumers' listening situations, and work with them. That's why the Yamaha NS-10M speaker is still sought after by pop music recording engineers (as awful as those speakers are, they do a neat trick -- if your mix sounds good in NS10s, it'll very likely sound good on anything!).
Anyhow, the B&W 801 is the farthest thing from a high efficiency speaker (it eats amp power for lunch).
We can't do anything about what mics were used (and how they were used) on this or that recording, so comparing Calrec to Schoeps won't get us closer to an answer for the OP.
Also, I want to point out that the currently popular oblate-spheroid waveguides are not the same as the exponential and tractrix horns used by Altec, Klipsch, et al. OS waveguides are meant for near to midfield listening. They're designed more for controlled dispersion than for the throw (projection) and highest efficiency sought by exponential or similar horn shapes. That makes a difference in the sound, for sure.
Has anyone here heard any of the diysoundgroup home theater designs? What about Wayne Parham's pi speakers? Or even the Econowave designs that were a hot topic a few years ago? They're all relatively high efficiency, but how do they sound for bowed strings, distant-miked (atmospheric, reverberant) recordings? Anyone?
B&W 801 was used as the standard monitor for classical music recordings in the 1980s and '90s. Telarc Records bragged about using them. I believe Decca used them, and probably EMI, Harmonia Mundi, BIS, etc. I don't know what the go-to classical monitor is these days.
I knew a composer whose home system was a pair of B&W 802 with Bryston amplification. I found it very 'accurate' sounding, but the midrange didn't have much in the way of the fluidity I craved at the time (being a triode-head). I could see making EQ and other decisions based on the sound coming from those B&Ws.
Remember, in a situation like a mastering studio, the speakers are a tool. You learn their characteristics, how they translate to consumers' listening situations, and work with them. That's why the Yamaha NS-10M speaker is still sought after by pop music recording engineers (as awful as those speakers are, they do a neat trick -- if your mix sounds good in NS10s, it'll very likely sound good on anything!).
Anyhow, the B&W 801 is the farthest thing from a high efficiency speaker (it eats amp power for lunch).
We can't do anything about what mics were used (and how they were used) on this or that recording, so comparing Calrec to Schoeps won't get us closer to an answer for the OP.
Also, I want to point out that the currently popular oblate-spheroid waveguides are not the same as the exponential and tractrix horns used by Altec, Klipsch, et al. OS waveguides are meant for near to midfield listening. They're designed more for controlled dispersion than for the throw (projection) and highest efficiency sought by exponential or similar horn shapes. That makes a difference in the sound, for sure.
Has anyone here heard any of the diysoundgroup home theater designs? What about Wayne Parham's pi speakers? Or even the Econowave designs that were a hot topic a few years ago? They're all relatively high efficiency, but how do they sound for bowed strings, distant-miked (atmospheric, reverberant) recordings? Anyone?
Erm, the OP hasn't posted on this forum since 2016. It's been quite funny watching this thread woken from its slumber with many of the new posters not even reading the history. Then an opionated <redacted> jumps on as only he knows what speakers and microphones to use and awards won on records mastered with other speakers mean nothing.
Signal to noise on here is at usual low level of a thread heading back to death. Shame as there are some interesting points, even if little to no progress has been made on even defining the needs for a speaker to play a particular range of genres
Signal to noise on here is at usual low level of a thread heading back to death. Shame as there are some interesting points, even if little to no progress has been made on even defining the needs for a speaker to play a particular range of genres
Well, I'm interested in the originally posted question because I like weenie little triode amps and I love classical music, and I live in a condo apartment, so I do not want or need 'reference level' SPL capability or subterranean bass response (both of which would only succeed in getting me EVICTED!).
I have recently been shocked to discover that the humble little JBL LSR305 is a quite listenable little speaker. It goes low enough, it throws a nice wide soundstage within its (purposefully restricted) listening window, it sounds clean and clear, and it does not sound strident.
In my quest to find an efficient-enough speaker for 5W per channel that sounds good on lots of different kinds of music (the toughest being classical music), I have tried:
- Tannoy T185 (10" dual concentric, passive radiator, 91dB/1W/8 ohm)
- Klipsch KG52 (10" ported monkey coffin with tractrix horn tweet, 94?dB/1W/8 ohm)
- Klipsch RF3 (2x 8" 'tower' with tractrix horn tweet, 94?dB/1W/4 ohm)
- Snell Type C (original, large 3-way w/ 10" woofer, 91dB/2.83V/4 ohm)
- Snell Type E-III (8" monkey coffin, 2-way, 91dB/2.83V/4 ohm)
So far, the Snell speakers win. For some crazy reason, the Type C sounds great with push-pull 2A3s. I don't know why. It shouldn't sound good. It sounds especially good with the PP 2A3 amp driving the mid-tweet module and a solid stage amp driving the woofers (bi-ampable passive xover in that speaker).
The Snell E-III is the design that Audio Note started from to make their 2-way speaker. It doesn't do quite as well with the PP 2A3 amp, but it's quite listenable.
I was satisfied with the Snell speakers until I got interested in the oblate-spheroid waveguide idea, someone mentioned that the JBL LSR305 was a good example to try, it was cheap, so I got a pair, and I was wowed. I've been listening to them ever since. My PP 2A3 amp needs work, so it's now waiting in the wings while I'm working on phono preamps.
So -- is there any hope that one of these large 2-way speakers with oblate-spheroid waveguides has a nice enough tone for classical music?
pi speakers 3 pi
DIYSoundGroup (Helix MT maybe?)
Econowave
I haven't had a chance to hear any of those, so I really do not know.
--
I have recently been shocked to discover that the humble little JBL LSR305 is a quite listenable little speaker. It goes low enough, it throws a nice wide soundstage within its (purposefully restricted) listening window, it sounds clean and clear, and it does not sound strident.
In my quest to find an efficient-enough speaker for 5W per channel that sounds good on lots of different kinds of music (the toughest being classical music), I have tried:
- Tannoy T185 (10" dual concentric, passive radiator, 91dB/1W/8 ohm)
- Klipsch KG52 (10" ported monkey coffin with tractrix horn tweet, 94?dB/1W/8 ohm)
- Klipsch RF3 (2x 8" 'tower' with tractrix horn tweet, 94?dB/1W/4 ohm)
- Snell Type C (original, large 3-way w/ 10" woofer, 91dB/2.83V/4 ohm)
- Snell Type E-III (8" monkey coffin, 2-way, 91dB/2.83V/4 ohm)
So far, the Snell speakers win. For some crazy reason, the Type C sounds great with push-pull 2A3s. I don't know why. It shouldn't sound good. It sounds especially good with the PP 2A3 amp driving the mid-tweet module and a solid stage amp driving the woofers (bi-ampable passive xover in that speaker).
The Snell E-III is the design that Audio Note started from to make their 2-way speaker. It doesn't do quite as well with the PP 2A3 amp, but it's quite listenable.
I was satisfied with the Snell speakers until I got interested in the oblate-spheroid waveguide idea, someone mentioned that the JBL LSR305 was a good example to try, it was cheap, so I got a pair, and I was wowed. I've been listening to them ever since. My PP 2A3 amp needs work, so it's now waiting in the wings while I'm working on phono preamps.
So -- is there any hope that one of these large 2-way speakers with oblate-spheroid waveguides has a nice enough tone for classical music?
pi speakers 3 pi
DIYSoundGroup (Helix MT maybe?)
Econowave
I haven't had a chance to hear any of those, so I really do not know.
--
Yes, the LSR305 is an active speaker.
It's a self-powered 5" 2-way with a JBL-designed waveguide, internal DSP crossover.
The reason I brought it up is that it sounds better to me than the Snell Type C or E-III, not that it's a candidate for a high efficiency speaker for low powered tube amps.
It's a self-powered 5" 2-way with a JBL-designed waveguide, internal DSP crossover.
The reason I brought it up is that it sounds better to me than the Snell Type C or E-III, not that it's a candidate for a high efficiency speaker for low powered tube amps.
strange nobody mentioned the one which was the subject of our extensive test.
Vandersteen.
It turned out to be pretty much useless for anything apart from classical music.
They pretty much admit that themselves.
Other names did turn up, - Spendor and Harbeth..Rogers, even some of the old BBC names.
Why would British stuff not be good when the BBC is/was responsible for broadcasting the biggest classical music festival in the world.
THE PROMS!
I've never owned a pair of Vandersteen speakers. Are these of relatively high sensitivity? I thought they were more on the low side (ca. 85dB)...
I forgot to mention that I also had a pair of Tannoy System 6 NFM for a while. (91dB/1W/1m/8 ohms). I did not like them. They had a weird 'electric' coloration to the upper mid/lower treble.
British speakers like Spendor and Rogers LS3/5a are usually quite low sensitivity (therefore do better with higher power amplifiers).
The Spendor Classic 2/3 has 88dB sensitivity (8 ohms nominal). That could be a contender.
Rogers LS3/5A has extremely low sensitivity of only 82dB, despite a high nomimal impedance of 12 ohms.
So again, this thread is about "high efficiency" speakers that sound good for classical music -- not just "any speakers that sound good for classical music."
I forgot to mention that I also had a pair of Tannoy System 6 NFM for a while. (91dB/1W/1m/8 ohms). I did not like them. They had a weird 'electric' coloration to the upper mid/lower treble.
British speakers like Spendor and Rogers LS3/5a are usually quite low sensitivity (therefore do better with higher power amplifiers).
The Spendor Classic 2/3 has 88dB sensitivity (8 ohms nominal). That could be a contender.
Rogers LS3/5A has extremely low sensitivity of only 82dB, despite a high nomimal impedance of 12 ohms.
So again, this thread is about "high efficiency" speakers that sound good for classical music -- not just "any speakers that sound good for classical music."
Not exactly high efficiency but for Classical I say get some big Magnepans and a big amp and be done with it!
I have a sound room like the OP, sitting about 3.2 m away from the short speaker wall, but I have a 11 meter echo chamber on the back of the listening room. My room is dead with carpet, urethane furniture, record racks & bookshelves, pianos & organs everywhere. I listen to classical music mostly, about 1.5 vpp or about 1/8 watt base level, with occasional 72 db peaks from CD or 55 db from LP. I'm not contrained to vacuum tubes, I think my djoffe modified ST120 and/or my Peavey CS800s sound better than my 5AR4 dynaco ST70. (original 7199 drivers produce 1% HD). I see peaks of 25 v out of either amp on loud orchestral passages. I'm 30 m from neighbors on an open lot so no constraints on my listening volume. I do listen to grand piano & pipe organ material some.
I'm in the camp of hollowboy post 54 on page 6. A 1.4" horn tweeter paired with an efficient 15" ported woofer.
This jibes with pano's early comment, high efficiency and classical material requires speakers with huge volume.
There is no chance of me getting to hear any of the commercial systems discussed, except some churches have Danley SH-50 but drive them with **** electronic keyboards or a out of tune praise band. The house speakers at Ky Center for the Arts when they were doing ballet to CD were inferior to my home system. Violins were screechy. There has probably never been a magnaplaner or KEF within 165 miles of here (Nashville or Chicago). I've never seen a JBL anything for sale within 165 miles except their **** consumer 5 driver toys with +-10 db frequency response.
So I'm in the camp of hollowboy post 54 on page 6. A 1.4" horn tweeter paired with an efficient 15" ported woofer. Best speakers I've heard are Peavey SP2 (2004 edition) with 98 db 1w1m, which sensitivity reaches the goal of the OP. They are 1.4" horn tweeter with 15" woofer, crossed @ 2000 hz. They will go 300 W rms but I have no use for that capability. The "2nd harmonic distortion 20 db down from 1% power" spec is at room level volumes. The lastest pair were $400 plus $40 gas & 12 hours to go get them in Terra Haute. $600 each at the local Peavey dealer.
I test speakers with piano CD's, with a Steinway & Sohmer 40" consoles in the room to calibrate the sound. Up until the SP2's every speaker was a failure. I do go to live concerts, and have hearing good to 14 khz. I have heard original Klipchhorns in 1974, driven my McIntosh, didn't like the jazz being played, not a decent test. Trumpet+snare+string bass is no test of system accuracy.
I'm in the camp of hollowboy post 54 on page 6. A 1.4" horn tweeter paired with an efficient 15" ported woofer.
This jibes with pano's early comment, high efficiency and classical material requires speakers with huge volume.
There is no chance of me getting to hear any of the commercial systems discussed, except some churches have Danley SH-50 but drive them with **** electronic keyboards or a out of tune praise band. The house speakers at Ky Center for the Arts when they were doing ballet to CD were inferior to my home system. Violins were screechy. There has probably never been a magnaplaner or KEF within 165 miles of here (Nashville or Chicago). I've never seen a JBL anything for sale within 165 miles except their **** consumer 5 driver toys with +-10 db frequency response.
So I'm in the camp of hollowboy post 54 on page 6. A 1.4" horn tweeter paired with an efficient 15" ported woofer. Best speakers I've heard are Peavey SP2 (2004 edition) with 98 db 1w1m, which sensitivity reaches the goal of the OP. They are 1.4" horn tweeter with 15" woofer, crossed @ 2000 hz. They will go 300 W rms but I have no use for that capability. The "2nd harmonic distortion 20 db down from 1% power" spec is at room level volumes. The lastest pair were $400 plus $40 gas & 12 hours to go get them in Terra Haute. $600 each at the local Peavey dealer.
I test speakers with piano CD's, with a Steinway & Sohmer 40" consoles in the room to calibrate the sound. Up until the SP2's every speaker was a failure. I do go to live concerts, and have hearing good to 14 khz. I have heard original Klipchhorns in 1974, driven my McIntosh, didn't like the jazz being played, not a decent test. Trumpet+snare+string bass is no test of system accuracy.
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+ clearly utterly useless and run by a con-man, who knows how to fleece people with more money than sense.
I have met such gurus in the UK before, one of whom is extremely well known,- supposed to be an industry authority (J. W..t ks..n) they only thing they have in common is being two faced double talking b..st.rds, who won't hesitate to take you for a massive BS ride, and help themselves to your hard earned cash.
The British sadly are world renowned for this con job behaviour, as my friend (the very first sound engineer employed by Euronews when they started) made me too well aware.
I met another one in Moscow the same (B..rts.v), who also was into the "bronze cast speaker drivers" BS.
The mega money system "all singing all dancing" showing me how it should be done, sounded like utter crap and hurt my ears, while their recordings made with their own tweaked microphones were awful.
I call BS!
eg.
"his lower bass horn runs two paralleled bass drivers firing...."
Because it clearly has indequate bass below 70hz, just like I said...
Then their "super HF driver" is being used to emit frequencies (18khz up to 45khz) which any spectrum analyser and sound engineer will tell you has ZERO content, and which is only useful for mice and cats.
Fact is,- the glowing reviews from 6moons and stereophile are made by men who simply cannot hear a thing beyond 8,5-9.5khz.
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Those people do have sense and want to show off. There is no other rationale than that in that kind of speakers, extreme expensive cars or jewels nor £500+ per bottle wine or whisky.
Nailed on. How many of even us here do hear 15kHz? I admit I didn’t last time I checked.