They are four way. I'm not sure if they would satisfy those living with horn speakers for a long time or even if the dynamic gap is closed. I'm fortunate since NYPhil and BSO are within driving distance so I've attended plenty of concerts at both, I've come to realize that I will take tonal purity and realism over ultimate dynamics, there is always a compromise somewhere. Reproduction that is stronger in the former sounds closer to what I hear live. For my taste and someone that has had ESL57 for a few years the dynamics of the G3 were outstanding and tonal color was very "vivid" particularly on piano and strings. I like to listen to lots of historical recordings like Schnabel and assuming the people doing the transfers didn't murder them with noise reduction even those oldies sounded excellent at low volume. IMHO reproducing 78 sound is particularly difficult since surface noise occurs at a lower frequency than LP, mics (or their preamps) tended to be more midrange and all sorts of other things that can make reproducing piano less than satisfactory. I am not going to make any engineering/design guesses why I liked them much more than Magico, Wilson, Focal, etc.
A close friend of mine has Avant-gardes and I know another with Klipsch Jubilee and both can not hear the horn coloration, but it stands out like a sore thumb to me, particularly when listening at more than low volume. I think JMLC and Earl Geddes were on to something with their horn HOM research. I'd love to hear Earl's speakers.
Commercial passive horn speakers all struggle to deal with the intrinsic issues with the horn system. Multiple amps and precise time/phase alignment, equalizing (acoustically and/or electronically) are required to make the horn speakers sound very good in a contemporary sense, imo. Only DIY solution. That's why we are here. 🙂
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I think if the person has all these preconceived notions on what is possible with horn speakers and have never experienced a proper systems they should stay with what they like. In my country I estimate there might be just a hand full of horn systems that may be worthy of the infamous "high end" status most of the participants in this thread cherish.
To build a system like this takes months, years, decades and takes a real dedication to get there. As far as driving a full range speaker with SET 2A3 amp and asking it to reproduce a symphony it does not work unless the builder goes through this process and perfects a full range (100 Hz up I suppose) fully horn loaded system. It will be LARGE and a beast to tame..Once you are there you may realize that bi or triamping sounds better - The direct radiators and hybrids mentioned here require at least 30 watts or so. Good luck with 3 watts!
Harbeth or 604
Hi again after 2 month,
finally I am hesitating between 2 system phylosophy :
- Harbeth (P3 or C7) as Gdahl said for classical music in home environment are hard to beat. After reading on them, they can be magical on mid/high with acoustical instruments but with limited bass. Also the poor efficiency (83-85dB) would mean poor dynamics. Afraid that even if their sound must be quite "cute", it will be "plugged" lacking of the life HE can provide to inter more deeply into emotions of interpretations.
Of course it would need a more powerful amp (30W minimum) so no SET...
- Altec 604 as it would for me the easiest way to build speakers. With a good passive filter of course, and maybe active after. I understand bass if not extended would be tonaly much more interesting for orchestral music. But can we get (with a vry good 2A3 amp and the good crossover) the magical PRAT and satured, silk timbres Harbeth can provide as it is said ?
Hi again after 2 month,
finally I am hesitating between 2 system phylosophy :
- Harbeth (P3 or C7) as Gdahl said for classical music in home environment are hard to beat. After reading on them, they can be magical on mid/high with acoustical instruments but with limited bass. Also the poor efficiency (83-85dB) would mean poor dynamics. Afraid that even if their sound must be quite "cute", it will be "plugged" lacking of the life HE can provide to inter more deeply into emotions of interpretations.
Of course it would need a more powerful amp (30W minimum) so no SET...
- Altec 604 as it would for me the easiest way to build speakers. With a good passive filter of course, and maybe active after. I understand bass if not extended would be tonaly much more interesting for orchestral music. But can we get (with a vry good 2A3 amp and the good crossover) the magical PRAT and satured, silk timbres Harbeth can provide as it is said ?
The best classical music with high efficiency speakers and low powered amps were a pair of Tannoy Westminster Royals (the big 15" dual concentric's) amped with a pair of diy 2A3 amps. Tannoy claims 99dB/1W/1M and i don't know if that is true, but it surely went loud enough and with enough headroom to play the piece that many fail: Wagner's "Der Ring des Nibelungen" in the infamous Decca recording with The Wiener Philharmonic directed by Georg Soltis (playing from phlips cd player with a Weiss DAC trough a FM Acoustics preamp).
But that speakerset is ridiculous expensive, and surely not the most economic way to listen to this kind of music. A more high power amp with a decent efficient speaker would do it better. And in general, cleaner systems do it better (but the very top of coloured system like that Tannoy/tube amp combo).
But that speakerset is ridiculous expensive, and surely not the most economic way to listen to this kind of music. A more high power amp with a decent efficient speaker would do it better. And in general, cleaner systems do it better (but the very top of coloured system like that Tannoy/tube amp combo).
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Wrong.
It just means you need more power for the same spl.
Poor dynamics are caused by too much harmonic distortion.
An example could be a SET driven hard (not enough power to drive the speaker, thus distortion is very audible)
BTW
Making speakers for a specific kind of music seems silly.
A speaker either sounds good on every kind of music or it will sound bad on every kind of music.
You could design for high spl levels or spend a lot less and accept lower spl levels.
Making speakers for a specific kind of music seems silly.
A speaker either sounds good on every kind of music or it will sound bad on every kind of music.
You could design for high spl levels or spend a lot less and accept lower spl levels.
This assertion is true if:
is true. But it isn't. Different kinds of music place dramatically different demands on a speaker. Also, different people listen to different kinds of music. They therefore are more likely to favor speakers that excel in reproducing the kind of music that they listen to. So there is every reason for manufacturers to make speakers that excel at reproducing specific kinds of music.
This is a truism. It says nothing about the reasons why you might choose to buy (or build) speakers capable of high spl levels.
I listen primarily to classical as well as acoustic music such as bluegrass and I have found rather simple open baffle systems (supplemented as needed with subs) to be very effective. I have used an 8 WPC SE tube amp quite successfully with even medium sensitivity versions in a small room. A larger high efficiency version would be a better choice for big rooms. I am intrigued by things like unity horns but have not tried them yet.
That is not what the scientific experts on this subject say.
See Toole et al.
You like to get hearing dammage.
Since classical music has a high crest factor (say 100), it is indeed true that certain kinds of speakers sound very good while playing such music. But those very speakers would also then play the other types of music just as well e.g. cinema speakers, due to their excellent dynamics, are more likely to perform much better than PA speakers, if presented with classical music material.
I usually refrain from answering to topics that are considered subjective (so as to avoid arguments based on personal preferences), but in this case, I would say that something along the lines of the Klipsch Jubilee would do very well.
I usually refrain from answering to topics that are considered subjective (so as to avoid arguments based on personal preferences), but in this case, I would say that something along the lines of the Klipsch Jubilee would do very well.
Would a commercial active sub woofer (or better 2) below say 80Hz increase the options for the OP? High efficiency below those frequencies is the major difficulty.
The problem with that line of reasoning is that all the Klipsch speakers I've heard, which means more affordable ones than the Jubilee model, sound mediocre to wretched playing bowed strings. (Screeeeeeeccccchhhhh)
Granted, that's only Klipsch Heresy, Klipsch RF3, Klipsch KG52, and another model that I can't remember the name of, but was produced in the 1990s.
While all sounded acceptable for bowed strings, they all sounded a bit electronic and harsh compared to some other speakers that are favorites among classical music listeners, such as Harbeth, B&W 801, some Sonus Faber models, some Snell Acoustics models, etc. (However I did hear a pair of Klipschorns being driven by a higher-end Sony receiver of ca. 1978 vintage that sounded tremendous for classical music.)
On the other hand, all of these mid to lower end Klipsch models sound spectacular for rock and pop music. Lively, detailed, lots of fun.
I have been in contact with folks from diysoundgroup (the makers of the SEOS waveguide and numerous speaker kits for home cinema) and I'm told by them that their speakers are specifically designed for home theater and may not be the right choice for a classical music listener looking to use their speakers with single-ended triode or low power class A amps. They don't come out and say exactly why, but I was disappointed when I was told they were really best for home cinema, not specifically for music.
I am not saying any of these speaker designs are instrinsically superior to the others. Just that there are certainly speakers that sound better for one type of music than another, and you brought up Klipsch who have made many classic examples of a 'rock' speaker.
There are speakers that are just plain good, and sound good playing all kinds of music (if played within their SPL limitations). I submit that the humble JBL LSR305 is one such example. However, the LSR305 simply cannot play loud into a large room. Very limited that way. Of course it's also an active monitor, with its own amps built in.
So yes, I too would like to know of a speaker design that sounds great for music with lots of naturally recorded bowed strings (i.e. 'classical music') and has high sensitivity so can play reasonably loud from a small class A amp.
Is there an answer to that question?
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So the question has a flaw: class A must be! Crossover distortion Is something irrelevant in class AB, Just for the amplifier guys. I mean, there are serious things about speakers that fortunately take for granted that the amplified signal Is strong.
OK, class AB 10W per channel.
Like push-pull ultralinear EL84 with maybe -6 or -10dB NFB.
That's a popular choice among tube aficionados.
Does that remove the flaw from the question well enough that it might deserve an answer?
I too would like to know of a speaker design that sounds great for music with lots of naturally recorded bowed strings (i.e. 'classical music') and has high sensitivity so can play reasonably loud and clean from a 10W per channel class AB tube amp with moderately high output impedance of about 1 ohm.
Like push-pull ultralinear EL84 with maybe -6 or -10dB NFB.
That's a popular choice among tube aficionados.
Does that remove the flaw from the question well enough that it might deserve an answer?
I too would like to know of a speaker design that sounds great for music with lots of naturally recorded bowed strings (i.e. 'classical music') and has high sensitivity so can play reasonably loud and clean from a 10W per channel class AB tube amp with moderately high output impedance of about 1 ohm.
rongon said:
I do not know how to explain that, but my guess is that for horns, musicality comes with size. However, since 'musicality' is not a very well-defined term, this angle could be subjective, varying from person to person.
rongon said:
Well, I meant the speakers used in a real cinema / theatre (e.g. 2000W/ch) when I mentioned "cinema speakers" and their dynamics, not speakers meant to play back movie content at home.
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With the direct radiator speakers that are associated with the horns (CD+horns) and whose size determines the raw SPL which alone means nothing and Is part of the calculation that determines the efficiency of the speaker, and it's widely known that you raise the efficiency by subdividing the spectrum in 3 ways. Why three? Because of the woofer, the midrange and the tweeter!
I'd Say a little more than 10W- I remember the old Geloso mono PP el84 with a Goodmans full range in big BR box.
About musicality... somebody said It before: I prefer speaker...system...that plays well with intelligibility at normal volumes than a system conceived for loud sound.
It goes to say that HE systems suffer from the excessive 'bigness' that characterizes HE itself
It goes to say that HE systems suffer from the excessive 'bigness' that characterizes HE itself