In your listening tests, does the Edcor transformer introduce ANY sonic coloration at all? Or is it the proverbial straight wire with gain=5x?
Don't be so rude with yourself Claude 😉 Testing and curiosity is part of DIY.. Was not a stupid idea on paper, worth trying: that was an easy test, no risk, nothing irreversible, not even a soldering job in your case.
You proved yourself (again, if still needed) 3 things in 1 shot: the VFET power amp is really really great: we've just listened its pure sound, you have an excellent FE: we can't hear it (I must say that I am impressed by such a transparent FE), and.. Papa is your boss 😉 Only positive points, no ?!
Gilles (Claude's second pair of ears on occasion)
It makes its own contribution to the sound. The Edcor is not as neutral
as some others, but ZM likes it, so there it is....
🙂
OK guys thank you very much I just got back home from my trip. So yes the T brackets are very tight there is no gap I did use lockwashers and made sure that they didn't bottom out. I used all of the thermal paste that was provided and I do believe it was just adequate to cover the entire surface but there was almost 0 squeeze out. The emissivity was set to .80 with the new meter and if I set it to 2 it reads much hotter 160c But I can keep my hand on the entire heat sink and finger touching the t bracket for a very long time, even after an hour runtime.
Does anybody know what the temperature Max on R1 and the actual circuit board where the ground connections are located. This seems to be where my highest temperatures are at.
Does anybody know what the temperature Max on R1 and the actual circuit board where the ground connections are located. This seems to be where my highest temperatures are at.
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ZM said, several years ago, M2 is The Best Little Amp in the World
And you of course tried m2 with other input iron options?
Good! Then you either have superpowers, or your temp meter is wrong! That is good news. I use something very similar to what Mark posted a few posts back: it has a thermalcoupla (no idea the exact word) and it is very reliable.
Time to change your measuring equipment! 🙂
now you're approaching it objectively .......... M2 is above Objectivity.
of course that I tried all possible ( and some not possible) Iron specimens, not just for M2, but for many derivatives of M2, I recently made
differences between various ones are not so night and day, as one could expect
speaking of dirt cheap Edcor, about some more expensive, about some even more expensive and about some money simply can't buy (unobtanium)
my problem is - I simply like proper Iron in signal chain, and sense of satisfaction of seeing one is greater than differences between proper ones
ok, to be frank, there are some - expensive - which I didn't found worthy all the fuss, comparing to 3 ones , you can see listed as option in my amps
Indeed, proper iron in the signal chain performs some valuable bandwidth limiting, without upsetting the phase response too much at either end.
Quote: In your listening tests, does the Edcor transformer introduce ANY sonic coloration at all? Or is it the proverbial straight wire with gain=5x?
Hi Mark,
Ah, that's an interesting one! One that I can't answer rigorously (and you often like it precise), so I am glad we got an answer from Papa himself!
If Papa wouldn't have posted, that's what my very own answer would have been, based on our findings and the conclusions Gilles & I drew...
I can't say if the Edcor transformer has a colouration or not, as I didn't listen to it specificaly / in isolation. I only listened to the entire FE board, that is loaded in a certain way, in a certain chain and last but not least as a full FE system comprising among other things JFET+ cap + Edcor.
I haven't listen for hours, as it seemed to become pointless as what we heard hasd less magnitude than the impact of absolute polarity or negative H2 have in the blindtests we performed in the past. And we tried hard to hear a difference, as I hoped for it LOL! So we thought we better move on as little or nothing was to be gained with my bypass. Having said that, it is a 5 min job to perform tests again... or more interestingly to swap entire FE boards.
Anyway, given the small impact, we drew the following conclusions (all IMHO and of course I could be wrong)...
EITHER
A) the existing FE board is very neutral, meaning that it is either extremely transparent or that if it is only transparent to 90% then that the mix of components complement themselves in such a wonderfull manner regarding "their weakest points" that the sum of the components sounds better than components in isolation and results in quite a neutral and transparent end result.
Given that I couldn't believe a tranny could be neutral, hence performing that modification first place, I would tend to believe the latter is perhaps true (?)... or the next proposal (B), but that's guesswork...
OR / AND
B) The sonic signature of the OS board is by far dominant and whatever FE is used, it will have an impact of second order, and not first. I believe quite in this hypothesis because whereas the little amp is a dam'ed a joy to listen to, I can't definitively call it neutral (ain't a precision tool). So either the output stage has such a strong signature that it tends to dominate the sonic signature of the entire amp, and / or it has indeed a dominat signature PLUS the existing FE tends to be "in the same stream" which make its "differential impact" even less obvious. Let's say the FE could have a sonic signature that nicely blends in the OS one...
For sure both FE and OS complement very well to my ears, but as said the end result isn't neutral... just dam'ed nice and addictive.
All this doesn't mean the amp is perfect... nor that having different FEs doesn't make sense. In fact, a different FE, that is still not neutral but call it perhaps "fast while remaining colourfull" (perhaps what someone could project when hearing Relentless and having no clue on boats) could in fact be an excellent idea to speed up the amp where it needs it IMHO. More on neutrality and speed later...
Sorry for the long answer, the short version is I don't know if the Edcor in isolation has a strong sonic signature but if it has one, it is IMHO not dominant IN THIS AMP and / or in line with the existing signature of the OS stage (and that one has a non neutral signature) so that it nicely blends in. Either way, it is not a sonic bottleneck and bypassing the boards didn't help me addressing what I would have hoped.
The listening tests are performed at Gilles (thanks), so quicker than what I would do at my home during days, but I can perform them anytime and again if needed and of course Gilles has the right speakers for this amp. Speakers that I intend to buy myself just because I love this amp and he needs the right speakers (for a second system)
I hope this helps clarifying our findings
Claude
Hi Mark,
Ah, that's an interesting one! One that I can't answer rigorously (and you often like it precise), so I am glad we got an answer from Papa himself!
If Papa wouldn't have posted, that's what my very own answer would have been, based on our findings and the conclusions Gilles & I drew...
I can't say if the Edcor transformer has a colouration or not, as I didn't listen to it specificaly / in isolation. I only listened to the entire FE board, that is loaded in a certain way, in a certain chain and last but not least as a full FE system comprising among other things JFET+ cap + Edcor.
I haven't listen for hours, as it seemed to become pointless as what we heard hasd less magnitude than the impact of absolute polarity or negative H2 have in the blindtests we performed in the past. And we tried hard to hear a difference, as I hoped for it LOL! So we thought we better move on as little or nothing was to be gained with my bypass. Having said that, it is a 5 min job to perform tests again... or more interestingly to swap entire FE boards.
Anyway, given the small impact, we drew the following conclusions (all IMHO and of course I could be wrong)...
EITHER
A) the existing FE board is very neutral, meaning that it is either extremely transparent or that if it is only transparent to 90% then that the mix of components complement themselves in such a wonderfull manner regarding "their weakest points" that the sum of the components sounds better than components in isolation and results in quite a neutral and transparent end result.
Given that I couldn't believe a tranny could be neutral, hence performing that modification first place, I would tend to believe the latter is perhaps true (?)... or the next proposal (B), but that's guesswork...
OR / AND
B) The sonic signature of the OS board is by far dominant and whatever FE is used, it will have an impact of second order, and not first. I believe quite in this hypothesis because whereas the little amp is a dam'ed a joy to listen to, I can't definitively call it neutral (ain't a precision tool). So either the output stage has such a strong signature that it tends to dominate the sonic signature of the entire amp, and / or it has indeed a dominat signature PLUS the existing FE tends to be "in the same stream" which make its "differential impact" even less obvious. Let's say the FE could have a sonic signature that nicely blends in the OS one...
For sure both FE and OS complement very well to my ears, but as said the end result isn't neutral... just dam'ed nice and addictive.
All this doesn't mean the amp is perfect... nor that having different FEs doesn't make sense. In fact, a different FE, that is still not neutral but call it perhaps "fast while remaining colourfull" (perhaps what someone could project when hearing Relentless and having no clue on boats) could in fact be an excellent idea to speed up the amp where it needs it IMHO. More on neutrality and speed later...
Sorry for the long answer, the short version is I don't know if the Edcor in isolation has a strong sonic signature but if it has one, it is IMHO not dominant IN THIS AMP and / or in line with the existing signature of the OS stage (and that one has a non neutral signature) so that it nicely blends in. Either way, it is not a sonic bottleneck and bypassing the boards didn't help me addressing what I would have hoped.
The listening tests are performed at Gilles (thanks), so quicker than what I would do at my home during days, but I can perform them anytime and again if needed and of course Gilles has the right speakers for this amp. Speakers that I intend to buy myself just because I love this amp and he needs the right speakers (for a second system)
I hope this helps clarifying our findings
Claude
..............
whats just one decimal between friends lol...
ok so is it
Aluminum (Polished) .10 - .05 no not really
Aluminum (Oxidized) .10 - .40 no
Aluminum (Rough) .10 - .30 no
Aluminum (Anodized) .60 - .95 i wish
I think your Fluke and my BRAND NEW Klein are right (you have to be smarter than the equipment you are operation)! .2 is a accurate setting for this type of measurement.
So i will spin NO Jacket Required and followed by Walking on Sun and get you more proof of something to see if my amp is HOT or NOT.
what setting would use for measuring R1 and the board temp?
whats just one decimal between friends lol...
ok so is it
Aluminum (Polished) .10 - .05 no not really
Aluminum (Oxidized) .10 - .40 no
Aluminum (Rough) .10 - .30 no
Aluminum (Anodized) .60 - .95 i wish
I think your Fluke and my BRAND NEW Klein are right (you have to be smarter than the equipment you are operation)! .2 is a accurate setting for this type of measurement.
So i will spin NO Jacket Required and followed by Walking on Sun and get you more proof of something to see if my amp is HOT or NOT.
what setting would use for measuring R1 and the board temp?
Try pulling the meter farther away until the 2 laser points converge into a single one. I think my cheapo one said to do that.
No it’s actually the other way around the two laser dots show the sample area that’s being measured as the dots grow further apart the accuracy of the measurement begins to diminish. so a 12 feet it sample area is 1 foot and at 6 inch its 1/2 inch sample area. Closer is more accurate.
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Some more on neutrality and this amp...
I said and say again that I love this amp, so I am biased. I love it so much I will purchase LS just for it, for a living room system.
Is that what I would want for my very own audio room? Not entirely. First off, my LS (and I love these a lot) aren't compatible with the VFET amp, end of story. We exchanged in the past elsewhere and they would need a dedicated beefed up F4 or similar. At the end they will get a FSSA-2, heavily biased in class A. I have started to build it...
But eventhough the VFET amp could drive them, is that what I would want? What do I expect from this main audio amp to come? First off, I wish it could bring me as much joy as the VFET amp, if not more. Because that' the main bit. Further, it can have its sonic signature adjusted but obviously it won't get into high negative H2 territory. I wish it remains musical, but I wish indeed it to be more neutral, more composed and with a terrific control over the LS, so quite different... as different needs have ot be to addressed and only such a muscial but more neutral could complement well my LS, or so do I believe.
How come that's what I want/like and it is still not miles away from the VFET amp? Because the VFET amp has "only" very easy LS to drive, so it remains in control, and because I only need maximum 0.5W for these (VFET amp dedicated) speakers. That is, I believe, an important point.
Whereas I love the latest Papa DIY stuff (and not only the latest, nor just the DIY one...), I like it but perhaps with a tad less emphasis. I love the B1 Korg but made mine more neutral (small tweaks) and more dominantly my prefered setting means I like it with sugar... but only 1/4 of the baseline proposal. No harm, it is intended to be adjustable as one wishes and it is still the same sugar as Papa. I learned from it. Here with a VFET amp delivering anything from very little up to 0.5W, I strongly suspect that the sonic signature is indeed intact but that the "sugar and distorsions" I love are in amplitude far less than when needing say 4W. Hence me suspecting the VFET amp doesn' overdo it for me -bare in mind, all this is just what "I" like! - having just a little sugar at the end and being probably more neutral than it would be with more demanding LS.
There is only one catch with this theory, that I can't explain. As every great device, the VFET amp sounds amazing and so pleasant even at very low listening levels. One would suspect a small loudness effect, say added distorsions with lower output levels, but no, rather the contrary. OK, perhaps "relatively more H2" at low levels then, that could be (?) . Who knows... well, Papa knows, but whatever he did, he did it dam'ed right, at every volume set up 🙂
Whereas neutrality doesn't bother me with the VFET amp (and in fact nothing bothers me with this amp other than spare parts LOL), there is still something I would like to address to make it more to my liking: speed.
Tweak 3...
I said and say again that I love this amp, so I am biased. I love it so much I will purchase LS just for it, for a living room system.
Is that what I would want for my very own audio room? Not entirely. First off, my LS (and I love these a lot) aren't compatible with the VFET amp, end of story. We exchanged in the past elsewhere and they would need a dedicated beefed up F4 or similar. At the end they will get a FSSA-2, heavily biased in class A. I have started to build it...
But eventhough the VFET amp could drive them, is that what I would want? What do I expect from this main audio amp to come? First off, I wish it could bring me as much joy as the VFET amp, if not more. Because that' the main bit. Further, it can have its sonic signature adjusted but obviously it won't get into high negative H2 territory. I wish it remains musical, but I wish indeed it to be more neutral, more composed and with a terrific control over the LS, so quite different... as different needs have ot be to addressed and only such a muscial but more neutral could complement well my LS, or so do I believe.
How come that's what I want/like and it is still not miles away from the VFET amp? Because the VFET amp has "only" very easy LS to drive, so it remains in control, and because I only need maximum 0.5W for these (VFET amp dedicated) speakers. That is, I believe, an important point.
Whereas I love the latest Papa DIY stuff (and not only the latest, nor just the DIY one...), I like it but perhaps with a tad less emphasis. I love the B1 Korg but made mine more neutral (small tweaks) and more dominantly my prefered setting means I like it with sugar... but only 1/4 of the baseline proposal. No harm, it is intended to be adjustable as one wishes and it is still the same sugar as Papa. I learned from it. Here with a VFET amp delivering anything from very little up to 0.5W, I strongly suspect that the sonic signature is indeed intact but that the "sugar and distorsions" I love are in amplitude far less than when needing say 4W. Hence me suspecting the VFET amp doesn' overdo it for me -bare in mind, all this is just what "I" like! - having just a little sugar at the end and being probably more neutral than it would be with more demanding LS.
There is only one catch with this theory, that I can't explain. As every great device, the VFET amp sounds amazing and so pleasant even at very low listening levels. One would suspect a small loudness effect, say added distorsions with lower output levels, but no, rather the contrary. OK, perhaps "relatively more H2" at low levels then, that could be (?) . Who knows... well, Papa knows, but whatever he did, he did it dam'ed right, at every volume set up 🙂
Whereas neutrality doesn't bother me with the VFET amp (and in fact nothing bothers me with this amp other than spare parts LOL), there is still something I would like to address to make it more to my liking: speed.
Tweak 3...
oh think 1 might live out in my shed shop gonna look later "K-Type Thermocouple" nice
what is thing 2 for not seen that before more shop supply lol
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Kapton tape (generic name: polyimide tape) attaches the thermocouple's "bead" to the transistor case or to the heatsink. Then a special DVM with special thermocouple I/O connectors, reads the temperature directly.
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