The Weak Links of Today's Audio

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#144
Well here is track with cannon fire in it:

File Name: 01 '1812' Overture, Op.49
Absolute Path: \\TV-PC\music\Early+Clasical\Tchaikovsky\1812\01 '1812' Overture, Op.49.flac
File Format: .flac

Sample Rate: Word Length: Bits Used:
44.1k 16 16

Left Right Joint
Max. TPL (True Peak Level - BS.1770) +3.41 +2.55 +3.41 (ITU)
Max. SPPM (Sample Peak Program Metering) -0.00 dBFS -0.05 dBFS -0.00 dBFS
RMS -22.89 -23.39
Max. Momentary Loudness (BS.1770) -7.59 (non-ITU) -8.04 (non-ITU) -7.99 (ITU)
Max. Short-Term Loudness (BS.1770) -11.98 (non-ITU) -12.43 (non-ITU) -12.46 (ITU)
Integrated Loudness (LUFS - BS.1770) -22.57 (ITU)
DR (PMF Dynamic Range) 16.46 16.88 17 (PMF)
Min. PSR (SPPM-to-Short-Term Loudness Ratio) 8.12 (AES)
PLR (TP-to-Integrated Loudness Ratio) 22.57 (AES)
LRA (Loudness Range - BS.1770) 22.11 (ITU)

But in the real world this is a Disco vinyl rip* of all things:


File Name: Frankie Goes To Hollywood - Welcome To The Pleasure Dome
Absolute Path: \\TV-PC\music\Full Quality Rips\Frankie Goes to Holywood\Welcome to the pleasuredome Fruitness\Frankie Goes To Hollywood - Welcome To The Pleasure Dome.wav
File Format: .wav

Sample Rate: Word Length: Bits Used:
44.1k 16 16

Left Right Joint
Max. TPL (True Peak Level - BS.1770) -3.00 -3.49 -3.00 (ITU)
Max. SPPM (Sample Peak Program Metering) -3.01 dBFS -3.48 dBFS -3.01 dBFS
RMS -21.27 -21.13
Max. Momentary Loudness (BS.1770) -14.82 (non-ITU) -11.88 (non-ITU) -14.40 (ITU)
Max. Short-Term Loudness (BS.1770) -17.09 (non-ITU) -15.31 (non-ITU) -16.16 (ITU)
Integrated Loudness (LUFS - BS.1770) -21.04 (ITU)
DR (PMF Dynamic Range) 15.45 14.24 15 (PMF)
Min. PSR (SPPM-to-Short-Term Loudness Ratio) 8.91 (AES)
PLR (TP-to-Integrated Loudness Ratio) 18.04 (AES)
LRA (Loudness Range - BS.1770) 7.61 (ITU)


*clicks and pops have been already removed and the cutting error that exists on this disk corrected
 
#145
LOL, not Pano specials. I've analyzed scores of CD rips and a dozen or so vinyl rips. On CD, most all tracks hit 0dBFS (full scale). With vinyl rips they can be made to hit 0dB with normalization. When one looks at the RMS value of the track, a typical level is 18dB below full scale. Meaning an 18dB crest or peak over the average level. There are certainly recordings with lower crest factor. 16dB is typical, and 10-12 can be found on loudness wars recordings. I don't care much for those.

Most of my classical recordings have a crest factor of 22-24dB, and even some pop recordings do, I think Madman Across the Water is around 21dB crest. If you want some help looking into this, I'll be glad to lend a hand.
 
#146
Certainly interested. The DR plugins don't give the resolution I need as it uses the whole track and a simple peak to average ratio also can get confusing.

Bob Cordell put me onto the insane Ricky lee jones track he used at a show that makes a very handy test for click removal software.

All said I still can't see how more power in front can make sound come from behind...
 
#148
Relevant to listening levels.

"I think that playback level is also a big factor because we know that things like diffraction become more audible at higher SPLs. Many audiophiles simply reject the idea of high volumes. I remember a lecture by S. Linkwitz where he described how he designed a system based on an 85 dB level. I asked if his analysis would hold up at higher SPLs and his response was that he doesn't listen at higher levels." - Earl Geddees

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/210931-benefits-drawbacks-waveguides-11.html#post6534929
Click to expand...

1) Linkwitz didn't listen to levels greater than 85dB
2) Diffraction increasingly becomes an issue as levels increase due to nonlinear psychoacoustics.

Lee, L. W. and Geddes, E. R. (2003). “Auditory Perception of
Nonlinear Distortion”, 115th Convention, Audio Eng. Soc.,
Preprint 5891.
 
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#149
Pano said:
LOL, not Pano specials. I've analyzed scores of CD rips and a dozen or so vinyl rips. On CD, most all tracks hit 0dBFS (full scale). With vinyl rips they can be made to hit 0dB with normalization. When one looks at the RMS value of the track, a typical level is 18dB below full scale. Meaning an 18dB crest or peak over the average level. There are certainly recordings with lower crest factor. 16dB is typical, and 10-12 can be found on loudness wars recordings. I don't care much for those.

Most of my classical recordings have a crest factor of 22-24dB, and even some pop recordings do, I think Madman Across the Water is around 21dB crest. If you want some help looking into this, I'll be glad to lend a hand.
Click to expand...
Is there a list here somewhere cataloguing recordings with highest to lowest dynamic range?


Found it in the music forum. billshurv provided the link
 
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#151
Charles Darwin said:
75-80dB seems very low and classical orchestras easily exceed 100dB.
Click to expand...
I have carried an SPL meter into several orchestral concerts and rarely found levels near 100dB, but I keep reading those same published numbers. I wonder where those measurements were taken. Inside the orchestra itself those levels make sense, but back where I can afford to sit, they don't match what I measure.

FWIW, when I mix voices for theater or corporate meetings average levels tend to be in the mid to upper 70s and everyone can hear and understand quite well. But voice is very dynamic, so I'm not sure where the peaks are hitting.
 
#152
Well here is track with cannon fire in it:

File Name: 01 '1812' Overture, Op.49
Absolute Path: \\TV-PC\music\Early+Clasical\Tchaikovsky\1812\01 '1812' Overture, Op.49.flac
File Format: .flac


Just a question.
How is that .flac compared to the vinyl? The cd is pathetic in my opinion.
 
#154
Charles Darwin said:
What kind of events are you going to?
Click to expand...
RoH covent garden, Royal albert hall. You know real live music. Did see Joe Bonamassa at RAH and he was batsrad loud.


I've heard talk of peaks of 126dB at the conductor's spot.
Click to expand...
I'm 80ft from the conductor.
krivium said:
Yes there are many on web eg:
Album list - Dynamic Range Database
Click to expand...
But DR is not crest factor. But it's a good pointer.


Pano said:
but I keep reading those same published numbers. I wonder where those measurements were taken.
Click to expand...
Me too, but never seen any real measurements for the audience. For sure hearing loss is real for musicians and they generally wear ear plugs now.
 
#156
We'll never have more than 2 ears and that makes it double, stereo. When they gather a large chorus or orchestra, they never aim the sounds to come with any delay at your ears, actualy the sound engineers put some work in order to avoid this. Stereo is natural, stero is musical, stereo is the natarual standard. You might say that the human ear can sense more than stereo and obviously this is true, but it was not meant for music listening...Don't get lost in to many details, enjoy music and also the total different experience you have at a concert, something that you'll never duplicate at your home - all that energym all the people... this can't be recorded.
 
#157
Discussion of concert halls is important, some are considered better than others. Some get bad reputations as echo chambers, "Echo Arena".

"Here it is necessary to emphasize that reflections occurring in small rooms cannot alone generate a sense of true envelopment. Envelopment requires delays (more than about 80 ms) that can only be supplied by recorded signals reproduced through multiple loudspeakers." - Floyd Toole
Click to expand...

Two channel stereo can create envelopment but it can't approximate concert halls.
 
#159
bradleypnw said:
Discussion of concert halls is important, some are considered better than others. Some get bad reputations as echo chambers, "Echo Arena".
Click to expand...

Depends on what you want to experience in the concert hall.

The Concertgebouw in Amstrdam is regarded as one of the best venues acoustically for classical concerts. It sticks to the shoebox lay out as does the Vienna Musikverein and has a reverb time of 2.2 seconds which is considered terrible and far too long for rock concerts.
 
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