Mike oldfield and michel Jarre
Finally the recordings have uploaded, they are running full range except for rolling them off at 50hz to stop excessive LF.
I did try using a sub but the responce of microphones in the phone drop like a brick below 50hz and above 10k.
So there was very little difference in low end output in the recording except a for some more warmth in the voice.
These will be my last recordings as I think this little project is now finally done and dusted .
My 4inch panels could be used down to 500 to600hz or so
The 12inch or so card panels can be used down to 100hz or so,I was very happy and surprised with this response ,but now with also the framed card panel and the 4inch panels, which both can now be attached to some form of material ,which will give a responce down to 40or50hz.
The only reason I have carried on on these forums was to produce a small panel that not only worked but sounded good.
So many times people would say small panels are no good and will always sound bad and can never be anyway near full range.
I do like a challenge, and decided to find out if it could be done,it's taken me longer than I'd imagined.
I think these recording prove otherwise, especially as the card panel on the left with the dome in the centre rolls off at 100hz.
If space is limited you can have a small dml panel and not worry about missing out on the best sound possible.
Steve
Finally the recordings have uploaded, they are running full range except for rolling them off at 50hz to stop excessive LF.
I did try using a sub but the responce of microphones in the phone drop like a brick below 50hz and above 10k.
So there was very little difference in low end output in the recording except a for some more warmth in the voice.
These will be my last recordings as I think this little project is now finally done and dusted .
My 4inch panels could be used down to 500 to600hz or so
The 12inch or so card panels can be used down to 100hz or so,I was very happy and surprised with this response ,but now with also the framed card panel and the 4inch panels, which both can now be attached to some form of material ,which will give a responce down to 40or50hz.
The only reason I have carried on on these forums was to produce a small panel that not only worked but sounded good.
So many times people would say small panels are no good and will always sound bad and can never be anyway near full range.
I do like a challenge, and decided to find out if it could be done,it's taken me longer than I'd imagined.
I think these recording prove otherwise, especially as the card panel on the left with the dome in the centre rolls off at 100hz.
If space is limited you can have a small dml panel and not worry about missing out on the best sound possible.
Steve
Last edited:
I appreciate your efforts, Steve. I know that large panels have the potential to dig deeper but smaller panels are simply more practical, and that's what I am going to be aiming for in my experiments. Your contributions have been going on a while now and hopefully your "done and dusted" status brings a sense of satisfaction and closure for you.
NG,
But you didn't retest your best candidate (IMHO), your Sureply plywood!
Also, I suggest that before too long you try your test panels with a frame like the one I described here:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/272576-study-dmls-range-speaker-218.html#post6296061
I was really unimpressed with my DML prototypes until I tried the plywood mounted via foam to a frame.
And, yeah, plywood doesn't seem to provide enough output, especially compared to the PS foams, but once you have two plywood panels (and a sub), and maybe put two exciters on each panel, you end up with more than enough SPL to annoy your SO!
Eric
Eric - You are correct, I didn't retry the sureply. I think the exciters are too low power for the size and thickness of it and I didn't have a chance to cut it down. I did however pick up a nice piece of 24" x 30" x 3mm Birch Ply from a woodworking store today and try it out and yes, for mids and highs it is the clear (some pun intended) front runner. Output was still way behind the foams and cardboard but the character of the sound was certainly a step up. The triple wall cardboard isn't too far behind though, and definitely is louder. I still can see how treating it with CF fabric and epoxy would really make it shine. I think once I can get the thrusters on the ply it will slay.
I will definitely work with frames as well. The EPS sounds so much better when I dampen the edges with my hands. The ply doesn't seem to change as far as I can tell but it's edge is thinner and the piece is bigger so I'm affecting a much smaller area by just gripping it.
I did some (very) uncontrolled pink noise tests today, just holding the exciter to the panels at about 18" from the mic. Results confirmed what the ears are hearing but in more detail. Wood and cardboard have the flattest response and best upper FR extension. Foams have higher SPL with a lot of peaks in the midrange and sharper rolloff up top, but more low end. Those very commonly seen dips at around 150-200 were the most pronounced as well. They were all more similar than I expected though, but again these were rough tests and I was just using an imm-6 mic and AudioTool on my phone. When things get more serious I'll try again with REW.
I will definitely work with frames as well. The EPS sounds so much better when I dampen the edges with my hands. The ply doesn't seem to change as far as I can tell but it's edge is thinner and the piece is bigger so I'm affecting a much smaller area by just gripping it.
I did some (very) uncontrolled pink noise tests today, just holding the exciter to the panels at about 18" from the mic. Results confirmed what the ears are hearing but in more detail. Wood and cardboard have the flattest response and best upper FR extension. Foams have higher SPL with a lot of peaks in the midrange and sharper rolloff up top, but more low end. Those very commonly seen dips at around 150-200 were the most pronounced as well. They were all more similar than I expected though, but again these were rough tests and I was just using an imm-6 mic and AudioTool on my phone. When things get more serious I'll try again with REW.
Don't be shocked if you don't get as much increase in SPL as you might be hoping for. While I never tried any 10 watt exciters like yours, I tried about half a dozen or so exciters in the 20-40 Watt range and found that regardless of the rated power, the SPL at which the distortion became objectionable was pretty much the same.
So far, my favorites are the Ultra (better reach at the low end) and the DEAX25FHE-4 and TEAX32C30 (better at the high end). These are all in the 20ish watt range, and for me provided as much distortion free SPL as the the 40 watt exciters that I tried (including the thruster).
Eric
Negativeghostrider.
Thank for your kind words,much appreciated.
But before I go I must give you a warning that when using eps and similarly efficient panel materials,a 10watt exciter has no problem producing large volumes of sound,and I mean LARGE,and with very little movement from the exciter.
But if you try to turn up the volume on a panel such as ply ,especially with a 400watt amp !
You could end up with an exciter looking like this.
You could get away with full range light music,but heavy rock or electronic music will heat up the exciter to finger burning temperatures very quickly!
When playing loud music on ply I was always going around the back of the panel to check how warm the exciters were getting.
I thought I should mention this.
I've just remembered a test disc track to check the dynamic range of my panels ,I promise you this will be the last recording,honest!!
.
Steve
Thank for your kind words,much appreciated.
But before I go I must give you a warning that when using eps and similarly efficient panel materials,a 10watt exciter has no problem producing large volumes of sound,and I mean LARGE,and with very little movement from the exciter.
But if you try to turn up the volume on a panel such as ply ,especially with a 400watt amp !
You could end up with an exciter looking like this.
You could get away with full range light music,but heavy rock or electronic music will heat up the exciter to finger burning temperatures very quickly!
When playing loud music on ply I was always going around the back of the panel to check how warm the exciters were getting.
I thought I should mention this.
I've just remembered a test disc track to check the dynamic range of my panels ,I promise you this will be the last recording,honest!!
.Steve
Attachments
2010 Alan Parsons sound check CD
i recorded this 10ft into the room.the recording was still going into the red a bit as i was playing it very loud ,the panels would go much louder but the microphones would not handle it!
from what i remember ,eps puts out far greater pressure waves than these small panels, you could feel your chest vibrate with the pressure waves but still ,these really dooooo power it out.
i do not know if he is still selling these cds but i would recommend these recordings if you wanted to find out if your speakers can produce real dynamics.
most if not all cones and domes would make this sound like a wet fart in a colander!
i added the chieftain tank for fun
make sure you turn the volume down before you play on your headphones ,this will hurt!
protect your hearing!
enjoy.
steve
i recorded this 10ft into the room.the recording was still going into the red a bit as i was playing it very loud ,the panels would go much louder but the microphones would not handle it!
from what i remember ,eps puts out far greater pressure waves than these small panels, you could feel your chest vibrate with the pressure waves but still ,these really dooooo power it out.
i do not know if he is still selling these cds but i would recommend these recordings if you wanted to find out if your speakers can produce real dynamics.
most if not all cones and domes would make this sound like a wet fart in a colander!
i added the chieftain tank for fun
make sure you turn the volume down before you play on your headphones ,this will hurt!
protect your hearing!
enjoy.
steve
Negativeghostrider.
Thank for your kind words,much appreciated.
But before I go I must give you a warning that when using eps and similarly efficient panel materials,a 10watt exciter has no problem producing large volumes of sound,and I mean LARGE,and with very little movement from the exciter.
But if you try to turn up the volume on a panel such as ply ,especially with a 400watt amp !
You could end up with an exciter looking like this.
You could get away with full range light music,but heavy rock or electronic music will heat up the exciter to finger burning temperatures very quickly!
When playing loud music on ply I was always going around the back of the panel to check how warm the exciters were getting.
I thought I should mention this.
I've just remembered a test disc track to check the dynamic range of my panels ,I promise you this will be the last recording,honest!!
Steve
Thanks man. Yeah, I am definitely looking avoid a cooked exciter. My final rig is going to be 4x50 RMS so little risk of overpowering the exciters. But yes, I will probably be playing more dynamically aggressive types of music so I will be mindful of volume and temperature on the exciters. Thanks for the heads up, and the test track.
steam train.
negativeghostrider.
no problem.
i just remembered i have a sound level meter,well two now ,with the one on my phone .
i did a test ,and this recording was reaching an average of 85db and a max of 90db 10ft into the room where the microphone was placed.
as i have said the small card panels could and have played this louder but my ears are starting to ring
not forgetting only one of them is going below 100hz,plus the michrophone drops off at around 50hz.
i thought id better clarify this ,as me saying i played it loudly does not mean much.
on my phone and tablet ,i cant get the volume as high as as im hearing in the room ,this is after downloading from the post,but it is ok downloading on the computer.
not forgetting that the digital amp is a muse m20 ex2,so 20 watts max output!
well that is it from me .
good luck.
and i hope you enjoy steam trains
steve
negativeghostrider.
no problem.
i just remembered i have a sound level meter,well two now ,with the one on my phone .
i did a test ,and this recording was reaching an average of 85db and a max of 90db 10ft into the room where the microphone was placed.
as i have said the small card panels could and have played this louder but my ears are starting to ring
not forgetting only one of them is going below 100hz,plus the michrophone drops off at around 50hz.
i thought id better clarify this ,as me saying i played it loudly does not mean much.
on my phone and tablet ,i cant get the volume as high as as im hearing in the room ,this is after downloading from the post,but it is ok downloading on the computer.
not forgetting that the digital amp is a muse m20 ex2,so 20 watts max output!
well that is it from me .
good luck.
and i hope you enjoy steam trains
steve
Hi nkemp,
It does not matter what class of amplifier drives the exciter. One wants the amplifier to be able to drive the load impedance of the exciter which in most cases are either 8 or 4 ohms.
The other thing to pay attention to is the power that the exciter can handle. If the exciter is rated at 10 watts one can drive it at 10 watts RMS with peaks power around 30-40 watts .Going with peak power above for a 10 watt exciter the exciter will start demonstrating large distrion. With a 20 watt exciter you can push it up to 60 watts peak and a 40 watt exciter can handel 80-100watts peak.
Cheers,
Steve
It does not matter what class of amplifier drives the exciter. One wants the amplifier to be able to drive the load impedance of the exciter which in most cases are either 8 or 4 ohms.
The other thing to pay attention to is the power that the exciter can handle. If the exciter is rated at 10 watts one can drive it at 10 watts RMS with peaks power around 30-40 watts .Going with peak power above for a 10 watt exciter the exciter will start demonstrating large distrion. With a 20 watt exciter you can push it up to 60 watts peak and a 40 watt exciter can handel 80-100watts peak.
Cheers,
Steve
Hi Brad,
I have used a putty spread blade and carefully push it around the bond area of the exciter. If your not going to use the panel then I use a xactor knife to cut out the exciter and again use the putty spread blade and carefully push it around the bond area of the exciter.
Cheers,
Steve
I have used a putty spread blade and carefully push it around the bond area of the exciter. If your not going to use the panel then I use a xactor knife to cut out the exciter and again use the putty spread blade and carefully push it around the bond area of the exciter.
Cheers,
Steve
To get badges off cars a technique is use fishing line to slice between the two surfaces.
Hey guys. It's been a minute, but I've been working on some cool (at least to me) stuff. I built a test rig that gives me 4 channels with variable crossovers/gains so I can try bi-amped, 2 way setups. It's a 12v 30a Meanwell AC/DC PSU powering a Toro MRX4 amplifier, 4x80 rms @4 ohms. I tucked it all into a Harbor Freight parts box with independent power switches and spring loaded speaker terminals. It's working great so far. Cost about $130 total. I was going to go with a similar setup with a 24 or 48v PSU and a couple of TPA chip amps and a Minidsp but this setup is cleaner/note compact and doesn't require a PC to change the crossover settings.
I've got the lows heading to a pair of Dayton Thrusters and the mids/highs to a set of Dayton DAEX25QLPs. I have been toying with the thrusters on xps/eps and the EX25s on 3mm Birch, thin plexi, canvas and cardboard.
Some of the results have been promising, at least in the ear tests. I haven't put them through REW yet. It seems like the sound is fuller and more clear when you're not trying to get a single substrate to vibrate over such a wide range of frequencies, and when you can choose substrates that work better for certain frequency ranges.
Tests so far have just been with uncut/unprepped panels. I'm getting ready to try a couple of different designs with prepped surfaces and different levels of damping.
1. A 2 way speaker with a larger panel of foam plus a thin strip of Birch or cardboard in front of it about an inch. So like a 12w x 18t" foam midbass with a 4w x 18t mid/high in front. The high panel would be too narrow to block much low end, but also gain a bit of output by using the panel behind to reinforce the output. Just ballparking the dimensions.
2. Put the low frequency foam panel behind a slightly larger canvas with the high frequency exciter on it. The canvas is acoustically transparent enough to let most of the low end through but it looks like one panel (-ish).
I've also been trying one of each exciter on the same panel in opposing corner nodes. I know that it's been pretty well established that multiple full range exciters on a single panel don't seem to appreciably increase SPL or improve FR but, to my ear, using two exciters running on different ranges gives a better sound than one exciter running full range, even when sharing a panel. REW measurements will either confirm or refute this.
Depending on my outcomes I can use the results to either help craft passive crossovers so I can run a 2 way system off a single channel and then maybe power a passive sub(s) off the other channel to really fill the low end, maybe in an Open Baffle configuration as par of the panel base on a larger freestanding unit.
I'll post updates as I go. Hopefully I will be able to prep some panels and get some testing sessions in this week.
I've got the lows heading to a pair of Dayton Thrusters and the mids/highs to a set of Dayton DAEX25QLPs. I have been toying with the thrusters on xps/eps and the EX25s on 3mm Birch, thin plexi, canvas and cardboard.
Some of the results have been promising, at least in the ear tests. I haven't put them through REW yet. It seems like the sound is fuller and more clear when you're not trying to get a single substrate to vibrate over such a wide range of frequencies, and when you can choose substrates that work better for certain frequency ranges.
Tests so far have just been with uncut/unprepped panels. I'm getting ready to try a couple of different designs with prepped surfaces and different levels of damping.
1. A 2 way speaker with a larger panel of foam plus a thin strip of Birch or cardboard in front of it about an inch. So like a 12w x 18t" foam midbass with a 4w x 18t mid/high in front. The high panel would be too narrow to block much low end, but also gain a bit of output by using the panel behind to reinforce the output. Just ballparking the dimensions.
2. Put the low frequency foam panel behind a slightly larger canvas with the high frequency exciter on it. The canvas is acoustically transparent enough to let most of the low end through but it looks like one panel (-ish).
I've also been trying one of each exciter on the same panel in opposing corner nodes. I know that it's been pretty well established that multiple full range exciters on a single panel don't seem to appreciably increase SPL or improve FR but, to my ear, using two exciters running on different ranges gives a better sound than one exciter running full range, even when sharing a panel. REW measurements will either confirm or refute this.
Depending on my outcomes I can use the results to either help craft passive crossovers so I can run a 2 way system off a single channel and then maybe power a passive sub(s) off the other channel to really fill the low end, maybe in an Open Baffle configuration as par of the panel base on a larger freestanding unit.
I'll post updates as I go. Hopefully I will be able to prep some panels and get some testing sessions in this week.
Attachments
@NegativeGhostrider - thanks for the info on this amp. It looks like a nice and cheap amp + crossover solution. I never considered car amps before, but they should work very well with 4 ohm exciters. Looking forward to your findings.
@JMatt – nice professional looking panels. Would like to see your Instructable. Have you abandoned cnc carved XPS panels in favour of plywood panels?
@JMatt – nice professional looking panels. Would like to see your Instructable. Have you abandoned cnc carved XPS panels in favour of plywood panels?