That's much more like it 
, thanks for the link!
I still think my M1 DAC (2013 version) does alright: Musical Fidelity M1 DAC John Atkinson January 2013 | Stereophile.com
But at these prices it will be easier to try these new devices.
, thanks for the link!I still think my M1 DAC (2013 version) does alright: Musical Fidelity M1 DAC John Atkinson January 2013 | Stereophile.com
But at these prices it will be easier to try these new devices.
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As I've mentioned before, I need my fix, now that I don't do experiments. I've tried to find all I could about the Goldmund Telos history and models. There isn't much to find, actually. Except maybe that there's a whole lot of dodgy clones out there that don't really inspire much confidence.
I'm perfectly happy with my clone though, as it's almost a one on one copy with good materials used and build by an experienced member here.
I'm probably alone in my enthusiasm for these amps, heck, if it wasn't for BYRTT and koldby I would never have known what it can do.
Here's a link to a sales brochure I came across with simplified specs of all models from the Telos 400 up to the monster Telos 5000: Sales Brochure - Dr Hi-Fi House Calls
A snippet:
From what I've seen, the 400 up to the 2500 are all very similar in construction. Moving up the power in each higher number.
Something that became way more fuzzy with newer models (except perhaps the top models in the series).
The Telos 5000 is insane though:
Way more detail in this separate brochure: Goldmund - Symmetry
I know, boring....... but hey, I can't help being enthusiastic about these amps. There's probably many more out there that are worth listening to, but these (or more specific: one of these) really rock my world! 
I'm perfectly happy with my clone though, as it's almost a one on one copy with good materials used and build by an experienced member here.
I'm probably alone in my enthusiasm for these amps, heck, if it wasn't for BYRTT and koldby I would never have known what it can do.
Here's a link to a sales brochure I came across with simplified specs of all models from the Telos 400 up to the monster Telos 5000: Sales Brochure - Dr Hi-Fi House Calls
A snippet:
From what I've seen, the 400 up to the 2500 are all very similar in construction. Moving up the power in each higher number.
Something that became way more fuzzy with newer models (except perhaps the top models in the series).
The Telos 5000 is insane though:
Way more detail in this separate brochure: Goldmund - Symmetry
I know, boring...
.... but hey, I can't help being enthusiastic about these amps. There's probably many more out there that are worth listening to, but these (or more specific: one of these) really rock my world! Attachments
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These are not that old .
I think McIntosh probably still has them?
I like it that these are 'pure business' amplifiers. I don't particularly like their design, shape or color, just what they do for music. I thought my Pioneer was pretty sweet. This goes one step further in making my digital chain sound like, well... music.
I actually like this look better than the Goldmund 'house design'.
Even though I tried to pay homage to them with the tag.
They (the Goldmund and Fetzilla combined) transform my space into a stage.
The Pioneers (using the A447 and A757 Mark II) also had a lovely synergy.
These mosfet amps playing together have a similar synergy. They are a step up in realism and dynamics. They make movies a thrilling experience too!
I had a hard time believing it could be a difference this big, before hearing it. All amps don't sound the same. I do realize that now. I can't even make them sound the same, no matter the processing I throw at it. I did not expect that to be true.
Reading this post I just typed, that Goldmund clone + Fetzilla have transformed me into an audiophile.
Koldby tried to tell me the arrays were good tools to hear what is in front of them. I was quite sceptic about that. Until I heard both of these do what they do best.
I can imagine it is a difficult message to process if you haven't heard it in your own system. Everyone should have at least an opportunity to hear one of the marvels like these high end amplifiers. I thought they (the amps) were full of (overpriced) hot air to be honest.
.I think McIntosh probably still has them?
I like it that these are 'pure business' amplifiers. I don't particularly like their design, shape or color, just what they do for music. I thought my Pioneer was pretty sweet. This goes one step further in making my digital chain sound like, well... music.
I actually like this look better than the Goldmund 'house design'.
Even though I tried to pay homage to them with the tag.
They (the Goldmund and Fetzilla combined) transform my space into a stage.
The Pioneers (using the A447 and A757 Mark II) also had a lovely synergy.
These mosfet amps playing together have a similar synergy. They are a step up in realism and dynamics. They make movies a thrilling experience too!
I had a hard time believing it could be a difference this big, before hearing it. All amps don't sound the same. I do realize that now. I can't even make them sound the same, no matter the processing I throw at it. I did not expect that to be true.
Reading this post I just typed, that Goldmund clone + Fetzilla have transformed me into an audiophile
.Koldby tried to tell me the arrays were good tools to hear what is in front of them. I was quite sceptic about that. Until I heard both of these do what they do best.
I can imagine it is a difficult message to process if you haven't heard it in your own system. Everyone should have at least an opportunity to hear one of the marvels like these high end amplifiers. I thought they (the amps) were full of (overpriced) hot air to be honest.
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The engineer in me has a hard time believing that all really good amps don't sound the same. I have definitely heard differences between amps in the past but those weren't really good amps. I have some good amps now and some fair amps used for subs. One of these days I'll replace the fair amps with Hypex Ncore and see if I hear a difference.
Times are too unsettled for me to do that now. Just hanging around the house and doing paper designs. Convinced myself not to try to marry full range array with horn; looking at PTmini array coaxial with full range driver array. The full range driver strains to get up above 4 khz for XO when put behind a slot that tries to match the horizontal directivity of the PTmini. Interesting challenge...
Times are too unsettled for me to do that now. Just hanging around the house and doing paper designs. Convinced myself not to try to marry full range array with horn; looking at PTmini array coaxial with full range driver array. The full range driver strains to get up above 4 khz for XO when put behind a slot that tries to match the horizontal directivity of the PTmini. Interesting challenge...
I was just like you, figuring I'd just get a more potent amp than the 100 watt Pioneer, I'd be set. The Pioneer, together with it's less potent sister amp were able to gel real good and get me a musical vibe that filled the room.
But what is a good amp I wondered. That was a question unanswered for me. So I started to frequent the amp sections and just read along. I've looked long and hard at the First One amps (not to be confused with Mr. Pass's First watt) that got quite a bit of attention at the time, especially in direct comparison to the NCore amps which also triggered my curiosity. However the First One seemed to be a bit finicky without much support from it's maker/designer and I continued to look on. I found Tom and his Neurochrome brand and Modulus line... I followed those threads as well, hoping for a powerful version to arise. That was the direction I was going in, aside from secretly looking at powerful PA type amps as well.
Then koldby and BYRTT came by for a visit. With a trunk full of amps. The differences in each of the amp we played with came both as a shock and surprise to me. For me, two stood out above all, those were the Fetzilla, because of a delicious midrange and the Goldmund, with no less of a delicious midrange, an insane bottom control and sweeter top end than I had heard ever. Those two had something in common in the midrange, but the Goldmund had no equal. Seductive, fast, detailed, in control. Without ever getting clinical. Hard not to throw a lot of subjective terms around. So I managed to convince koldby to sell that one to me. For a long time I have chased my tail, not quite getting all of it's potential out of it. It still was detailed, fast etc. but strangely less dynamic than I had heard it in my memories. That changed back in spades with the insertion of the Atom pré-amp. However even comparing the Musical Fidelity one on one with the Xonar Essence ST, there is enough difference between these two dacs to frown upon. That's why I'm not eager to switch out the DAC.
For me, it was the balance between my speakers and this Goldmund clone amp that simply worked. I figured it would be a good idea to get a similar sound on the ambience channel which is why I started nagging and chasing koldby to pry that one loose from him as well. Even for that duty I have looked at other options, but trusted my gut feeling that the Fetzilla's sweet midrange could gell well with the Goldmund. I wasn't wrong.
If I had unlimited funds I would even try Telos power on the subwoofers as well (lol). But I do think the NCore do what they should right there, enough for me not to worry about it.
Only after our listening session I started to read up on Goldmund (and still do). Trying to get back some grip on the matter from the engineering position. What they do at Goldmund is focus on time behaviour. As a firm they deem it important enough to have processing on their speakers to realise that.
It's something that had my attention as well during my quest, which is why I wanted a seamless speaker without crossovers. I do know (and realise) not all think it's worth it, but to me it still is well worth all my troubles to get there. Pretty sure this isn't something that is easily 'repaired' or matched on a different amp using DSP.
If anything I still think that harmonics that line up create the beauty I love about this 'magic' mix. When you get it right, it just fills the space with atmosphere and a true feeling of being there. Realism. I've had it (the bloom of music) with the Pioneers and have it again (but even more promising as it is more detailed, real) with this new combo (and am sure re-processing my DSP parts will even make it better than it is right now, but for that I wait to get a 6 channel pré).
Maybe I've gone cuckoo. But if that's the case I'm actually happy about it. 
But what is a good amp I wondered. That was a question unanswered for me. So I started to frequent the amp sections and just read along. I've looked long and hard at the First One amps (not to be confused with Mr. Pass's First watt) that got quite a bit of attention at the time, especially in direct comparison to the NCore amps which also triggered my curiosity. However the First One seemed to be a bit finicky without much support from it's maker/designer and I continued to look on. I found Tom and his Neurochrome brand and Modulus line... I followed those threads as well, hoping for a powerful version to arise. That was the direction I was going in, aside from secretly looking at powerful PA type amps as well.
Then koldby and BYRTT came by for a visit. With a trunk full of amps. The differences in each of the amp we played with came both as a shock and surprise to me. For me, two stood out above all, those were the Fetzilla, because of a delicious midrange and the Goldmund, with no less of a delicious midrange, an insane bottom control and sweeter top end than I had heard ever. Those two had something in common in the midrange, but the Goldmund had no equal. Seductive, fast, detailed, in control. Without ever getting clinical. Hard not to throw a lot of subjective terms around. So I managed to convince koldby to sell that one to me. For a long time I have chased my tail, not quite getting all of it's potential out of it. It still was detailed, fast etc. but strangely less dynamic than I had heard it in my memories. That changed back in spades with the insertion of the Atom pré-amp. However even comparing the Musical Fidelity one on one with the Xonar Essence ST, there is enough difference between these two dacs to frown upon. That's why I'm not eager to switch out the DAC.
For me, it was the balance between my speakers and this Goldmund clone amp that simply worked. I figured it would be a good idea to get a similar sound on the ambience channel which is why I started nagging and chasing koldby to pry that one loose from him as well. Even for that duty I have looked at other options, but trusted my gut feeling that the Fetzilla's sweet midrange could gell well with the Goldmund. I wasn't wrong.
If I had unlimited funds I would even try Telos power on the subwoofers as well (lol). But I do think the NCore do what they should right there, enough for me not to worry about it.
Only after our listening session I started to read up on Goldmund (and still do). Trying to get back some grip on the matter from the engineering position. What they do at Goldmund is focus on time behaviour. As a firm they deem it important enough to have processing on their speakers to realise that.
It's something that had my attention as well during my quest, which is why I wanted a seamless speaker without crossovers. I do know (and realise) not all think it's worth it, but to me it still is well worth all my troubles to get there. Pretty sure this isn't something that is easily 'repaired' or matched on a different amp using DSP.
If anything I still think that harmonics that line up create the beauty I love about this 'magic' mix. When you get it right, it just fills the space with atmosphere and a true feeling of being there. Realism. I've had it (the bloom of music) with the Pioneers and have it again (but even more promising as it is more detailed, real) with this new combo (and am sure re-processing my DSP parts will even make it better than it is right now, but for that I wait to get a 6 channel pré).
Maybe I've gone cuckoo
. But if that's the case I'm actually happy about it. Attachments
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I do realise it is not the popular view. We shouldn't be able to hear that time variant. Not sensitive to it according to many studies etc. But I do not agree with that view.
I'd rather look at Dunlavy, and yes, Goldmund. It does make sense to me. It's the magic people look for in full range drivers, or Horns covering a large spectrum.
The mid/side EQ I use only works well when done linear phase. Little differences but quite easy to pick up on. I know and realise we can't hear all nuances of phase everywhere within the frequency spectrum used for music. But the more you get right, the more 'real' sounds become has been a re-occurring feature in my many experiments through the years. Even if I loose track every now and then... when backpedaling through what I've done so far there have been many magic moments. And the more I get it right, the more songs start to make sense. I refuse to write off songs as badly produced etc. Sure those do exist, but most people that mix/master for a living aren't that deaf. I don't turn knobs/adjust frequency balance between songs, as the more I get right, the more each song sets its own mood.
(leaving many bad productions from the early digital productions of the 80's out of this equation, as well as the useless dynamically crippled songs of later years)
I'd rather look at Dunlavy, and yes, Goldmund. It does make sense to me. It's the magic people look for in full range drivers, or Horns covering a large spectrum.
The mid/side EQ I use only works well when done linear phase. Little differences but quite easy to pick up on. I know and realise we can't hear all nuances of phase everywhere within the frequency spectrum used for music. But the more you get right, the more 'real' sounds become has been a re-occurring feature in my many experiments through the years. Even if I loose track every now and then... when backpedaling through what I've done so far there have been many magic moments. And the more I get it right, the more songs start to make sense. I refuse to write off songs as badly produced etc. Sure those do exist, but most people that mix/master for a living aren't that deaf. I don't turn knobs/adjust frequency balance between songs, as the more I get right, the more each song sets its own mood.
(leaving many bad productions from the early digital productions of the 80's out of this equation, as well as the useless dynamically crippled songs of later years)
Reading this post I just typed, that Goldmund clone + Fetzilla have transformed me into an audiophile
Koldby tried to tell me the arrays were good tools to hear what is in front of them. I was quite sceptic about that. Until I heard both of these do what they do best.
I can imagine it is a difficult message to process if you haven't heard it in your own system. Everyone should have at least an opportunity to hear one of the marvels like these high end amplifiers. I thought they (the amps) were full of (overpriced) hot air to be honest.
You displayed your audiophile tendencies a while ago when you found a difference in cables
Goldmund seem to walk the line between engineering and snake oil sales. Solid engineering underneath married to enough nonsense to get rich people to part with their money
There are certainly audible differences between amps, the most striking differences tend to come from changes in the Class of operation or topology of the circuits.
The difficulty in assessing that has a big interaction with the rest of the system, and there is a grain of truth in the audiophile mantra of needing to have a highly resolving system to hear it. With bookshelf speakers and multiways with a lot of crossovers the differences can be very hard to pick and even harder to decide if one is better than the other.
Changing the sub amp for an Ncore is probably not the best way to test, and for me no class D amp has so far beaten any class half decent Class A/B amplifier for use in mid to high frequencies, even if the class D measures significantly better. Which for me is reverse confirmation bias as I expect things that measure better to sound better.
It's quite easy to "hear" the differences between amps these days.
Get a "lunchbox money" little class D board, and pit it against some A/B amp. I know it's a bit extreme, but it would show the people that don't believe the amp has anything to do with the sound.
Same goes with DACs chips, topology and especially drivers written for them.
I was on a discussion with NuPrime regarding amps.
Fluid, I think they would change your perception of class D... well, maybe because it's not pure D. They use a A/B pre-amp, and class D for power. You get the best of both worlds.
Anyway, the discussion was that they (NuPrime) could engineer a dry or warm sounding amp at a click of a button in the designing process. They can modulate the amp's behaviour easily, and actually do exactly that to offer different kind of performance in their amp line up.
I, myself, went with their MCH-K38 (I got a deal I couldn't pass).
Best amp I have ever had... the staging is immense, choirs and orchestras occupy the whole wall in front of me. Clean, punchy and has plenty of meat for the low stuff.
The 8 channels of amplification (bridgeable into 4 channels for more oomph) were a godsend for using a miniDSP product, or in a 5.1 movie configuration.
MCH-K38 – NuPrime Audio
Get a "lunchbox money" little class D board, and pit it against some A/B amp. I know it's a bit extreme, but it would show the people that don't believe the amp has anything to do with the sound.
Same goes with DACs chips, topology and especially drivers written for them.
I was on a discussion with NuPrime regarding amps.
Fluid, I think they would change your perception of class D... well, maybe because it's not pure D. They use a A/B pre-amp, and class D for power. You get the best of both worlds.
Anyway, the discussion was that they (NuPrime) could engineer a dry or warm sounding amp at a click of a button in the designing process. They can modulate the amp's behaviour easily, and actually do exactly that to offer different kind of performance in their amp line up.
I, myself, went with their MCH-K38 (I got a deal I couldn't pass).
Best amp I have ever had... the staging is immense, choirs and orchestras occupy the whole wall in front of me. Clean, punchy and has plenty of meat for the low stuff.
The 8 channels of amplification (bridgeable into 4 channels for more oomph) were a godsend for using a miniDSP product, or in a 5.1 movie configuration.
MCH-K38 – NuPrime Audio
The point was in comparing high quality amplifiers that have reached a level that could be considered transparent from standard measurements.
There are still differences between these but they are less easy to hear. The quality of the speaker they are auditioned on playing a part.
I have never heard a Nuprime or am likely to so I can't comment on the sound but designers claiming the sorts of things you mentioned rings alarm bells with me.
I really wanted to like the UcD amps I had, they were well engineered by one of the greatest current audio figures, got the tick of approval from SL and made huge power in a small chassis with not much heat. They are great amplifiers and would run rings around most audiophile high dollar rubbish but there was always something about them that I could not get rid of no matter what EQ was used. Any of my good quality A/B amps did not have that problem. I have it on good authority that the Ncore amps have the same issue.
I am tempted by the purifi modules as changes have been made to those and Bruno himself has said they sound quite a lot better which he was not expecting. Maybe they can change my mind, but they are a long way from most mass market class D.
There are still differences between these but they are less easy to hear. The quality of the speaker they are auditioned on playing a part.
I have never heard a Nuprime or am likely to so I can't comment on the sound but designers claiming the sorts of things you mentioned rings alarm bells with me.
I really wanted to like the UcD amps I had, they were well engineered by one of the greatest current audio figures, got the tick of approval from SL and made huge power in a small chassis with not much heat. They are great amplifiers and would run rings around most audiophile high dollar rubbish but there was always something about them that I could not get rid of no matter what EQ was used. Any of my good quality A/B amps did not have that problem. I have it on good authority that the Ncore amps have the same issue.
I am tempted by the purifi modules as changes have been made to those and Bruno himself has said they sound quite a lot better which he was not expecting. Maybe they can change my mind, but they are a long way from most mass market class D.
You displayed your audiophile tendencies a while ago when you found a difference in cables
Goldmund seem to walk the line between engineering and snake oil sales. Solid engineering underneath married to enough nonsense to get rich people to part with their money
Actually, I did measure a difference between cables
.I can't disagree completely. Their price of admission is pretty crazy. However they did sell an alternative until very recently. The Jobsys amps had a lot of their technology for a whole lot less money. The only thing they did not do is make them with an abundance of power like their mid and top class amps.
But they did sport the same technology. They did not try hard to keep that a secret!
Every amp we heard in our test sounded different from the others. Two certainly had something in common. But still acted rather different across the whole frequency spectrum. There was a fifth amp koldby brought with him, an UCD. Because of it being differential input we didn't listen to it.
Going in this test I did not expect it and if I were to buy an amp blind, I would have gotten the one with the best specs and measurements.
Which is why I was rather close to getting an Ncore at some point, until I found not one, but several reports of people stating something was off. There were about an equal amount of reports of people stating the opposite though. Saying it was the most neutral amp to date. Like a wire with gain.
Due to these conflicting views I tried to look for options that would allow me to listen first. Shortly after that the opportunity of the meet came up. I'm sure glad that happened.
But if I had heard the Goldmund clone without us using the HP-1 headphone amp as a pré, I would probably would have stuck with my Pioneer.
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There was one more thing I would have loved to try. I did look long and hard for a high power class A amp. Beside a high price of entry for anything around 100 watt (or above), the heat dissipation problem and power usage just seemed absurd.
The ExtremA from Bruno Putzeys was one of the things I secretly craved for. But it was way out of my league to try and build one due to a lack of EE knowledge.
The ExtremA from Bruno Putzeys was one of the things I secretly craved for. But it was way out of my league to try and build one due to a lack of EE knowledge.
A good candidate for a class A amplifier is the Alpha Nirvana.
For class A it's highly efficient.
Another interesting amplifier is the SimpelStark.
For class A it's highly efficient.
Another interesting amplifier is the SimpelStark.
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I'd welcome a listening session, in my own room between the Purify and the Goldmund clone out of curiosity. But I would not buy one blind.
The same Bruno behind the ExtremA 100 watt class A had claimed that the NCore was as transparent as the class A. Now the newest hottest amp is the Purify.
To me it got quite confusing if we can't measure our way to better sound. Maybe I should change my signature (lol). I don't know what to look for exactly to quantify these differences. But I'm pretty sure they are hidden somewhere for us to discover.
Stereo remains a strange game, the confusing part of listening with two ears. That gullible brain in between that certainly plays a huge part in it all.... But as long as it is fun, evokes a lot of emotion from me (that is the prime reason for me to play) I'll continue my silly quest.
There aren't many things I enjoy as much as getting lost in the music. The emotional stir it brings... the chills down the spine. I love music and what it does to me. That is what makes this the ultimate hobby for me. I get to do what I like to do, build things with my hands, think up clever ways to advance my results and enjoy the fruits of all that labor. I could only wish for one more thing. A room for myself to play in. Where i could go completely nuts! It might be a good thing that i don't have a room like that...
Attachments
39 watt isn't cutting it, is it scalable?
Something like the Pass Labs xa 200.8 certainly peaks my interest. Another unattainable goal for me...
Nelson Pass said:
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It has been scaled to deliver almost double current (3A 57w) in a 4R version.
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I'd want 100 watt or more. I have 350+ watt into 8 ohm right now...
Headroom! I do believe more is better there, even though the difference seems small in output SPL.
If I did have that room to myself to play with, I'd be playing with high sensitivity horns and a few watts would be all I'd ever needed.
Room constraints made me go with arrays, but I don't regret that decision.
Headroom! I do believe more is better there, even though the difference seems small in output SPL.
If I did have that room to myself to play with, I'd be playing with high sensitivity horns and a few watts would be all I'd ever needed.
Room constraints made me go with arrays, but I don't regret that decision.
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First I heard there may be something off about Ncore. Even so, likely it would rise to the top of my amp stack and push the Behringer and Pyle off the bottom. My subs use AE woofers and deserve a good amp when in a system configuration where they play high.
Or I will switch my aim towards Purifi, if/when their module becomes more available. Talk about impressive specs!
I agree; snake oil in marketing puts me off. Pity its necessary for product differentiation. Seldom, except at the component level, do we see real measurements. Perhaps that would be different if SQ could be measured directly.
Geddes is of the persuasion that all good amps sound the same but he also did a couple of papers on the perception of distortion
GedLee LLC
Or I will switch my aim towards Purifi, if/when their module becomes more available. Talk about impressive specs!
I agree; snake oil in marketing puts me off. Pity its necessary for product differentiation. Seldom, except at the component level, do we see real measurements. Perhaps that would be different if SQ could be measured directly.
Geddes is of the persuasion that all good amps sound the same but he also did a couple of papers on the perception of distortion
GedLee LLC
Just my 25c:
I have build a lot of the Pass constructions (not the XA 200.8 though) and none of them could match the Goldmound or the Fetzilla soundwise. IMHO
Anyway, I do have (almost) all components to play with for the time being. Yes, Class A would be interesting... however i'm not one to keep swapping out components as part of the fun for me is getting the best out of the compromises you have chosen.
And I certainly haven't found the limits of arrays just yet, there is more to be had by working hard and keep experimenting with the tools on hand.
And I certainly haven't found the limits of arrays just yet, there is more to be had by working hard and keep experimenting with the tools on hand.