Sumotan, I will place an order to you for recaping my second pair of speakers : Kef 104/2 ref. It needs 5% tang loss caps here and there in some values hard to find (7 uF for instance...)
I referrofluided it last summer, so the recaping is the next targett... Maybe in one year or two at the speed I'm doing things !😎 It needs to dismantle all the speaker as I have the first monowired version ! I'm not hurry !
Dacs'madness first 😛 !
@ Scott : thanks ...
I referrofluided it last summer, so the recaping is the next targett... Maybe in one year or two at the speed I'm doing things !😎 It needs to dismantle all the speaker as I have the first monowired version ! I'm not hurry !
Dacs'madness first 😛 !
@ Scott : thanks ...
the bass....
Hi Eldam,
The whole presentation was very homogenic. The bass frequences were very natural also. Fully bodied and very natural and free of distortion. So the way i see it its not only distortion that spoils realism but also lack of dynamics. I think officialy its called dynamic contrast. Its this tiny amounts of time and contrast that make all the difference in realism. Also with this specific model i think the fact that it is rather small in dimensions, allows it to be placed in normal peoples living rooms. So you dont need to have a palace for your high end speaker to work optimally. My suspicion is its primarily these factors. The size of the demonstration room i heard the speakers was approximately 35 square meters. No clue for the rolloff.
It does not seem to have much to do with the NS-1000. Apart from the size and concept in general. I also suspect its a marketing move. They save a huge percentage from the marketing budget by recycling the NS-1000 myth. Yamaha is a big player and have serious marketing department.
I noticed that people criticized the crossover for not having the highest possible quality parts. I dont believe that for this flagship model , yamaha would spare a few dozen euros per speaker to save some bucks. In fact such things function primarily as marketing. It would be stupid. They may have done it on purpose for some reasons. From my experience from making speakers, beyond a certain quality level the speaker becomes very sensitive to almost everything. The cable, the equipment, the single parts of the crossover.... etch. Because the speaker becomes so transparent, that you start to see the influence of other parts clearer. And lets not forget , the recording and the equipment that was used in the recording also plays a big role. So an 100% free distortion speaker would play well only on perfect recordings that dont exist. So maybe you want to play with the crossover a bit to achieve better realism. For me any trick is welcomed, rules are good but some tricks that dont make sense are also good... I advice to have a listen to the speakers first before making any conclusions. Forgot to mention that i did not know to what I was listening in the begining, somewhere in the middle of the audition i looked at the "brand". I was quite socked when i saw yamaha. Up to that point had never heard anything high endish from them....
Hi Eldam,
The whole presentation was very homogenic. The bass frequences were very natural also. Fully bodied and very natural and free of distortion. So the way i see it its not only distortion that spoils realism but also lack of dynamics. I think officialy its called dynamic contrast. Its this tiny amounts of time and contrast that make all the difference in realism. Also with this specific model i think the fact that it is rather small in dimensions, allows it to be placed in normal peoples living rooms. So you dont need to have a palace for your high end speaker to work optimally. My suspicion is its primarily these factors. The size of the demonstration room i heard the speakers was approximately 35 square meters. No clue for the rolloff.
It does not seem to have much to do with the NS-1000. Apart from the size and concept in general. I also suspect its a marketing move. They save a huge percentage from the marketing budget by recycling the NS-1000 myth. Yamaha is a big player and have serious marketing department.
I noticed that people criticized the crossover for not having the highest possible quality parts. I dont believe that for this flagship model , yamaha would spare a few dozen euros per speaker to save some bucks. In fact such things function primarily as marketing. It would be stupid. They may have done it on purpose for some reasons. From my experience from making speakers, beyond a certain quality level the speaker becomes very sensitive to almost everything. The cable, the equipment, the single parts of the crossover.... etch. Because the speaker becomes so transparent, that you start to see the influence of other parts clearer. And lets not forget , the recording and the equipment that was used in the recording also plays a big role. So an 100% free distortion speaker would play well only on perfect recordings that dont exist. So maybe you want to play with the crossover a bit to achieve better realism. For me any trick is welcomed, rules are good but some tricks that dont make sense are also good... I advice to have a listen to the speakers first before making any conclusions. Forgot to mention that i did not know to what I was listening in the begining, somewhere in the middle of the audition i looked at the "brand". I was quite socked when i saw yamaha. Up to that point had never heard anything high endish from them....
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I should have made a mistake about the bass roll off if it is a vented cab... It certainly goes lower....
I'm looking forward to see the measurements of Stereophile mag.
I'm looking forward to see the measurements of Stereophile mag.
These drivers are not like Be at all.
Thermo-formed Zylon (no resin) with a Monel surface treatment (which is largely Nickel with Copper).
-not particularly rigid drivers given that the Zylon fabric is very thin. Like any soft dome, the rigidity is largely due to it's shape and size.
In other words the comparison to Be is a gimmick. (..which is not to say that it doesn't perform objectively or subjectively, just that the characteristics of the diaphragm material is wildly different that its predecessor.)
Thermo-formed Zylon (no resin) with a Monel surface treatment (which is largely Nickel with Copper).
-not particularly rigid drivers given that the Zylon fabric is very thin. Like any soft dome, the rigidity is largely due to it's shape and size.
In other words the comparison to Be is a gimmick. (..which is not to say that it doesn't perform objectively or subjectively, just that the characteristics of the diaphragm material is wildly different that its predecessor.)
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Given the advancement in production technology, it sad to see
that the big players are so market orientated. With their R & D
budgets they could easily go into FR , 2 way coaxle etc but they
still stick to 3-4 way speakers etc. Look back into yesteryear for
example the Altec A7 now to me that is true know how & technology.
Think you can find something similar in specs & performance from
today's drivers ?
that the big players are so market orientated. With their R & D
budgets they could easily go into FR , 2 way coaxle etc but they
still stick to 3-4 way speakers etc. Look back into yesteryear for
example the Altec A7 now to me that is true know how & technology.
Think you can find something similar in specs & performance from
today's drivers ?
Good to know Eldam. Im already done with tweaking & building.
So like you moving on to crossover for my Odyssey. Will be building
an Ascent crossover to compare if if sounds better then what's in
the speaker now. This was suggested to me by TYU & looking at
the schematics it should be true cause so much more less parts
in the crossover & yet panels on both speakers are the same.
Must be another marketing hype approach by ML.
Cheers
So like you moving on to crossover for my Odyssey. Will be building
an Ascent crossover to compare if if sounds better then what's in
the speaker now. This was suggested to me by TYU & looking at
the schematics it should be true cause so much more less parts
in the crossover & yet panels on both speakers are the same.
Must be another marketing hype approach by ML.
Cheers
Hi Lojzek,
I have forgotten about this thread and just saw your post about the thick layer product that can do piano finishes I suggested (one year ago 😀).
It is a clear polyester resin based lacquer for deep piano looks, the company that makes it is called ICA - Manufacture of industrial coatings - ICA Group
I buy from them as an OEM customer and although we use standard polyurethane 30% matt coating, I will speak to them in a week or so and will ask about the name of this product. They demonstrated it to us after we complained about the many layers one needs to get proper piano lacquer, it does wonders and has additives so won`t turn yellowish in 10-12 years or so (what they said). I am 100% sure ICA are available in Croatia. They are not the DIY store type of coating, they do mostly industrial stuff but...once applied their coatings are ready for sanding in 10 minutes, produce super smooth finish, very easy to sand and become very hard in a few days. I recently built a WMTMW for a friend and it had a piano gloss finish with ICA paint, he has a car wash and often polishes cars, said the coating got hard as hell in a few days and even more abbrasive pastes were powerless.
Let me speak to ICA and I will let oyu know whats the name and how much does it cost here in Bulgaria, should be similar or cheaper in Croatia 🙂 Sorry again for coming back to you so late, have absolutely missed this one.
Cheers,
Mario
But is it fair to judge these speakers by the price of the internal parts? You don't belief that the price of, say, expensive audiophool film caps has anything to do with the sound they are not making, do you?
Jan
Hey Mario, no problem. I have a project in my mind developing so this info of yours might come in handy.
Cheers
I listened to the NS5000 last month under reasonable shop conditions with an $8000 Yamaha S3000 integrated amp and played my reference CDs. The amp appeared to be doing a good job of driving the speakers and producing good micro detail, drive and bass. Comparison vs the better sounding of the NS1000 types circa 1980 models and 4 pairs I have owned in the last 20 years:
* Treble appeared more extended and silky smooth and sweet, lots of micro detail similar to some of the best hi end Scan Speak and Seas dome tweeters
* Midrange detail and sonic snap about the same, smoother and sweeter, imaging a little better. The berylium dome may have a little more snap. Overall both the zylon and berylium dome sonic snap is more than the best cone and soft dome midrange drivers I have heard like accuton ceramics, Kevlar, paper cones and fabrics.
* Bass much better by a subjective factor of about 2-3 times, in terms of quality, extension, texture, palpability, impact etc. It did not fail in any aspect of the perfect bass on my reference CDs. Speakers were listened to with and without rear port foam plug and there will be too much bass unplugged for most average rooms and heavy notes can intrude. Plug in does not substantially reduce extension and reduces overall bass about 30%
* Overall the sound is a lot more complete and full spectrum with no shortcoming in any area, a lot sweeter and musical sound, less fatiguing, tweeter very extended similar to a good ribbon tweeter, massive bass extension and slam, imaging appeared about 20% better given the shop setup, vocals were spectacular in the league of what might be expected among the best in conventional cone/dome box speaker designs available past and present designs. Comparison against the NS1000 in the mid and treble sonic snap, clarity and detail alone it appears similar with perhaps about 10% more so not a huge jump on those aspects alone.
* Build quality, construction and appearance is very good in terms of a conventional cone/dome box speaker design.
From what I read of Zylon driver dome material used vs berylium it is meant to have about 20% more stiffness to weight ratio and meant to be better than berylium.
Well done Yamaha significant improvement on continuing the NS1000 legend.
There is further discussion and pictures inside the speaker design at this forum http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/89618-yamaha-press-release-ns-5000-the-new-ns-1000m/?page=11
* Treble appeared more extended and silky smooth and sweet, lots of micro detail similar to some of the best hi end Scan Speak and Seas dome tweeters
* Midrange detail and sonic snap about the same, smoother and sweeter, imaging a little better. The berylium dome may have a little more snap. Overall both the zylon and berylium dome sonic snap is more than the best cone and soft dome midrange drivers I have heard like accuton ceramics, Kevlar, paper cones and fabrics.
* Bass much better by a subjective factor of about 2-3 times, in terms of quality, extension, texture, palpability, impact etc. It did not fail in any aspect of the perfect bass on my reference CDs. Speakers were listened to with and without rear port foam plug and there will be too much bass unplugged for most average rooms and heavy notes can intrude. Plug in does not substantially reduce extension and reduces overall bass about 30%
* Overall the sound is a lot more complete and full spectrum with no shortcoming in any area, a lot sweeter and musical sound, less fatiguing, tweeter very extended similar to a good ribbon tweeter, massive bass extension and slam, imaging appeared about 20% better given the shop setup, vocals were spectacular in the league of what might be expected among the best in conventional cone/dome box speaker designs available past and present designs. Comparison against the NS1000 in the mid and treble sonic snap, clarity and detail alone it appears similar with perhaps about 10% more so not a huge jump on those aspects alone.
* Build quality, construction and appearance is very good in terms of a conventional cone/dome box speaker design.
From what I read of Zylon driver dome material used vs berylium it is meant to have about 20% more stiffness to weight ratio and meant to be better than berylium.
Well done Yamaha significant improvement on continuing the NS1000 legend.
There is further discussion and pictures inside the speaker design at this forum http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/89618-yamaha-press-release-ns-5000-the-new-ns-1000m/?page=11
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From a Wikipedia article on Zylon:
"Some studies subsequently reported that the Zylon vests may degrade rapidly,[4] leaving wearers with significantly less protection than expected. Second Chance eventually recalled all of its zylon-containing vests, which led to its subsequent bankruptcy. In early 2005, Armor Holdings, Inc. first recalled its existing Zylon-based products, and decreased the rated lifespan warranty of new vests from 60 months to 30 months.[5] In August 2005, AHI decided to discontinue manufacturing all of its Zylon-containing vests"
That fits perfectly with a 2-3 year manufacturer warranty. The material looks very interesting, but seems not that stable yet.
"Some studies subsequently reported that the Zylon vests may degrade rapidly,[4] leaving wearers with significantly less protection than expected. Second Chance eventually recalled all of its zylon-containing vests, which led to its subsequent bankruptcy. In early 2005, Armor Holdings, Inc. first recalled its existing Zylon-based products, and decreased the rated lifespan warranty of new vests from 60 months to 30 months.[5] In August 2005, AHI decided to discontinue manufacturing all of its Zylon-containing vests"
That fits perfectly with a 2-3 year manufacturer warranty. The material looks very interesting, but seems not that stable yet.
Over a decade ago, given the rapid advances in material science I'd expect these issues have probably been greatly mitigated in the intervening years. Also a bullet proof vest and speaker application are not exactly that comparable.
The cone material has been subjected to different processing than would be the case with the vest.
Finally I have to agree with the comments of those others who have actually heard the NS-5000, it's an amazing accomplishment. During the two days I attended Salon Audio in Montreal back in March I was inexorably drawn back to the Yamaha room on multiple occasions. If not the best sound of the show it was certainly one of the top contenders for the honor.
The MSRP in the U.S. appears to be around $15K based on what I can find. The warranty is ten (10) years so I would say Yamaha is pretty confident about their durability. (I've owned Yamaha high end gear in the ancient past, and they both stocked spare parts long term and the equipment was pretty reliable.)
The cone material has been subjected to different processing than would be the case with the vest.
Finally I have to agree with the comments of those others who have actually heard the NS-5000, it's an amazing accomplishment. During the two days I attended Salon Audio in Montreal back in March I was inexorably drawn back to the Yamaha room on multiple occasions. If not the best sound of the show it was certainly one of the top contenders for the honor.
The MSRP in the U.S. appears to be around $15K based on what I can find. The warranty is ten (10) years so I would say Yamaha is pretty confident about their durability. (I've owned Yamaha high end gear in the ancient past, and they both stocked spare parts long term and the equipment was pretty reliable.)
The Yamaha information said they coated the zylon with a UV stabiliser to reduce degradation and fixed that problem. The zylon dome feels firm or stiff to touch but is not very soft like a normal fabric dome driver yet they still describe it as a soft dome. The day I listened to the NS5000 I heard B&W 803D and the Yamaha was much better and cost much less.
Based on a short listen they were spectacular at TAVES last year, easily top three among competitors >10x their retail. I recall a very unaffected, natural presentation. Interesting to see heritage names like Yamaha and Technics enter this market again.
..again, it has a coating of Monel - or basically a nickel and copper alloy.
-this coating protects the fabric from UV damage.
..it's a thermal arc sprayer application (typically used for carbide treatments on things like drill bits).
Thickness for this sort of application is measured in micrometers. So it's extremely thin.
Thickness for this sort of application is measured in micrometers. So it's extremely thin.
Ok, I spoke to the ICA importer today.
To make the piano finish product, you have to buy two different products called POL10 and POL13. They have to be mixed, usually 70/30 or 60/40 and then a catalyst to be added. For the final coat the addition of parafine is advised.
The cost of these in Bulgaria is (per litre):
EUR7.85 for POL10
EUR7.06 for POL13
EUR16.25 for the catalyst
EUR9.52 for the parafine
They said that after a few coatings it produces very deep piano finish which is also very hard. I`m sure you`d have them in Croatia, if not - Bulgaria is not far and postage won`t brake the bank 🙂
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