What I look for is emotion in music : smallest variations of an solo instrument, sweetness of violins, ultrafast acceleration dynamics of the orchestra starting up, whispering of a soprano to be suspended in air, then singing loud with soul to die for, drama of the orchestra stopping right in a full meaning silence, soft and complexe timbres of ancient instrument...
To summarise being suspended and flying with harmonic waves, or feeling the force and fury when it is rushing.
Sorry for my poor english, hope some of you can understand my meanings...
To summarise being suspended and flying with harmonic waves, or feeling the force and fury when it is rushing.
Sorry for my poor english, hope some of you can understand my meanings...
I have hesitated commenting here, as my views will likely not be popular. First, a tiny bit of my history:
I grew up in a household that was very into music. The "HiFi" system included an original Voice of the Theater, complete with 200v DC power supply. Mono, this was long before stereo.
Later, the VOT was replaced by a local Audio shop's custom boxes with (as far as I can rememer), Altec woofer and multi-cell horn tweeter, bass-reflex box. Sound was improved.
Much later, I got into the industry, and delivered Magneplanar speakers. Much improvement. Far smoother results, better imaging, more detail. Yes, more power was required, so the system got a Phase Linear 700. (Mine now)
Later, when my dad moved, the Magneplanars were replaced by KEF 105s. Again, improved performance, especially in the bass.
The above was my dad's last system, and I got the amp after....
My system includes KEF 101s and some subs I built. I'm a strong believer in modern, well damped direct radiators and plenty of power..... To me the main attraction of the old "high efficiency" systems was that you couldn't get big amps, and you did with what you could.... Power is pretty cheap now.
I grew up in a household that was very into music. The "HiFi" system included an original Voice of the Theater, complete with 200v DC power supply. Mono, this was long before stereo.
Later, the VOT was replaced by a local Audio shop's custom boxes with (as far as I can rememer), Altec woofer and multi-cell horn tweeter, bass-reflex box. Sound was improved.
Much later, I got into the industry, and delivered Magneplanar speakers. Much improvement. Far smoother results, better imaging, more detail. Yes, more power was required, so the system got a Phase Linear 700. (Mine now)
Later, when my dad moved, the Magneplanars were replaced by KEF 105s. Again, improved performance, especially in the bass.
The above was my dad's last system, and I got the amp after....
My system includes KEF 101s and some subs I built. I'm a strong believer in modern, well damped direct radiators and plenty of power..... To me the main attraction of the old "high efficiency" systems was that you couldn't get big amps, and you did with what you could.... Power is pretty cheap now.
So what you need is something really neutral sounding. Or do you think Maria Callas cares about mesh plates 2A3 tone?🙄
Btw, neutral is no synonym of unrefined, just the contrary, and also the contrary of common audiophile sense according to which refineded sounding is synonym of special sounding. Neutrality is summum refinement! Mainstream sound is nor neutral, nor special, nor refined, mainstream is just the unrefined taste of the masses, beurk! And VOTs and DHTs have also been mainstream some time ago... 300B tone, Altec tone... Beurk!
The Golden Age of Audio, is NOW, with state of the art gear. Audio gear has never been so good as it is NOW, though it's flawed compared to the gear we will use tomorrow. Send vintage stuff to museums, forget about it, and don't wasre valuable time and money in it!
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There are some existing implementations that use the 604 with additional bass drivers. This one is well regarded:
815A UREI HiFi-Do McIntosh/JBL/audio-technica/Jeff Rowland/Accuphase 12-67905-49120-00
Here's a good-looking version of the 604's standard bass reflex enclosure:
The eXemplar System
Two points from this review seem particularly relevant -
1) they suit near field listening "I found that leaving anything between four feet and eighteen feet between me and the front plane of the speakers worked equally well"
2) even with the recommended 250 litre enclosure, the reviewer (and manufacturer) saw a clear need for a subwoofer, for some types of music.
Plots provided by Great Plains Audio show them to be about -5dB at 40Hz, in the recommended enclosure. To go lower (for organ music), you probably do need a sub.
With respect to 604s in sealed boxes:
My own build uses cheap, shameless copies of the 604 (pictured). The specs indicate that it can't do bass (Fs of 50Hz, Xmax only 2.5mm), so I don't try. I use them in small sealed boxes, where they roll off under 120Hz*. I sit these directly on top of the bass boxes to keep the centre-to-centre spacing small.
A 604 would go a bit lower. In a 50 liter sealed box, the -3dB point should be 90Hz. That's still fairly high to cross to a sub.
1) you'd probably want stereo bass drivers (not just one), and to keep the distances small. That is: use the bass boxes as stands for the 604 boxes.
2) you don't really need to highpass the 604. Using a sealed box and low power input will keep the excursion very low. My clones were fine even when I first got them and used them on OB. 15" drivers can take quite a kicking.
*this is lower than predicted, the P.Audio published specs are (often) a bit off.
A final point: the 604 may not be compatible with a beryllium driver / diaphragm upgrade. If you were serious about that, you should check before you buy.
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Have a look in Toole's book at thr power response you get with those prehistorical UREI / Altec 604 devices with their big cone/ small horn ! True old papa vintage sound!😀
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I don't have the book, but I can guess: the output narrows at the top of the cone's range, then widens at the bottom of the horn's range.
For many people that's an acceptable compromise. For people who do care, some manufacturers (B&C and Beyma, probably others) have published polars / directivity maps for their coaxials, and some of them look pretty good.
I don't understand audiophile interest for technically obsoltete designs...🙄
Room Reflections & Human Adaptation for Small Room Acoustics | Audioholics
Btw, I have a pair of 12 Tannoy dual concentric in my garage, and find this stuff sounds desperately colored and especially dull in the mids.
Room Reflections & Human Adaptation for Small Room Acoustics | Audioholics
Btw, I have a pair of 12 Tannoy dual concentric in my garage, and find this stuff sounds desperately colored and especially dull in the mids.
I currently have UREI 813C in my living room. It is somewhat bass shy despite of its huge size, especially when not soffit mounted. Woofer is staggered tuned crossed around 200Hz, I guess. My ones probably only go to 40Hz at best, but piano and the other low freq instruments sound much more life like than the small speaker that goes to 30Hz.
Sure, so why get back to a special point in time? What's so fascinating in the vintage stuff? What's the pay back for nostalgic investments?🙄
I think the bottom point is to not get an efficient speaker for classical music.
A well designed 2 watt low impedance output amp can drive 85 db efficient speakers without any problems attaining momentous peaks of 25 watts.
A well designed 2 watt low impedance output amp can drive 85 db efficient speakers without any problems attaining momentous peaks of 25 watts.
...with 20-25 dB higher levels of modulation distortion than modern well-designed and -implemented horn loaded loudspeakers. Direct radiators sound opaque and compressed in comparison, even if the direct radiating drivers are quite large.
If you don't care about those two attributes, then I would guess that you're happy with what you guys already own.
I know that high modulation distortion, group delay and compression distortion at or near concert levels are deal breakers for me. The OP asked very good questions. I think it's courtesy to answer his questions rather than argue your own favorite clichés.
Cask05's Main Rig - My Photo Gallery
Pano...remember this? http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...kes-speaker-sound-dynamic-22.html#post4349595
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...kes-speaker-sound-dynamic-22.html#post4349595
Chris
If you don't care about those two attributes, then I would guess that you're happy with what you guys already own.
I know that high modulation distortion, group delay and compression distortion at or near concert levels are deal breakers for me. The OP asked very good questions. I think it's courtesy to answer his questions rather than argue your own favorite clichés.
Cask05's Main Rig - My Photo Gallery
Pano...remember this? http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...kes-speaker-sound-dynamic-22.html#post4349595
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...kes-speaker-sound-dynamic-22.html#post4349595
Chris
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Bitte..., sorry..., pardon..., perdón..., what are you talking about?😕
When i hear, for example a Lowther, Supravox, Fostex, Altec i only feel i am closer to the cone and its nastinesses, even if i am listening at 3m and over... That's for me the typical Hi eff speaker cliché, the Sakuma full of sake audiophile cliché...
You don't like music,guys, you simply like the sound of certain SPEAKERS! SPEAKERS THAT SOUND LIKE HARLEY DAVIDSONS, PETARDEO INCLUDED, LOL!
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Without wishing to give too much food to the threadtroll who seems to be more interested in stirring then debating, I don't reckon there has been anywhere as much progress in direct radiators in the last 25 years as there has been in horn systems and related high efficiency technologies. Both NXT and BMR (beyond manger) have failed or failed to get traction and those are the only things that are really leap out. box speakers are the same now as they were when I bought my first system. Horns however have evolved considerably.
Dont agree the cone part, remember that awfull bextrene tone in the late seventies, and the light paper cone nasty tone eversince, Lowther masterpieces, coming first...D
Fully agree the horn part, it has become the acceptable part of hi eff set ups. Big cones the ony offenders to me.
Btw, i like to debate, voting is my only concern...😀
Fully agree the horn part, it has become the acceptable part of hi eff set ups. Big cones the ony offenders to me.
Btw, i like to debate, voting is my only concern...😀
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hmm, in terms of the loudspeaker technology, I can't deny a technical progression in a part is sometimes causing a draw back in the other part, even if one is the improved version of the older. In a professional audio world, no one can still make better small monitor speaker than NS10M, which is still ubiquitous in the professional studios over the world for 40+ years, because it does something that no other can't. Yamaha has released improved version of NS10M many times, but no one liked them.
Also, many new speaker technology is more like just another new invention, and they can't be compared each other. i.e. horn vs dome. They are just 2 different technologies, and one is not the improved version of the other.
More importantly, the aesthetic value has no relationship to the technical progression. For example, many people were very impressed with the sheer musicality of the very first Sonus Faber product when certain type of small classical chamber music is played, but it can sound bad playing the other kind of music. Later, they started releasing much more expensive, more technologically progressed speakers that is much more versatile and more accurate, but as you may know, the magic is just gone. Sonus Faber has become just another very expensive speaker with little trace of their first few magical products. Less aesthetic value for some people.
I won't be surprised that if someone choose an old Tannoy instead of a new B&W for classical music playback, and many actually do. They do have just different value that can't be substituted each other.
