+1
Also in light of the less knowledgable organists who may come after you, maybe best to ensure pieces are stock off-the-shelf standardized.
Ben
Round #4. Mark Andersen is on his way back today. Two approaches are going to be tried.
First, we're going to try to use the Artisan Sound Engine like an external MIDI workstation. The Peterson components don't send SYSEX messages to them. The Artisan computer can't handle them. Bob Dommer is at a trade show. He's going to be available for telephone support late this afternoon.
Approach two is to run a separate Artisan MIDI system in parallel with the Peterson system. The Artisan encoders don't produce SYSEX messages. The question is how do we gain access to the wiring from the keyboards, pedalboard and tab switches? Mark is going to be flying by the seat of his pants today.
If neither of these methods work, I honestly don't know what we are going to do. The only question then may be Phillips head or Flat?
Bach On
First, we're going to try to use the Artisan Sound Engine like an external MIDI workstation. The Peterson components don't send SYSEX messages to them. The Artisan computer can't handle them. Bob Dommer is at a trade show. He's going to be available for telephone support late this afternoon.
Approach two is to run a separate Artisan MIDI system in parallel with the Peterson system. The Artisan encoders don't produce SYSEX messages. The question is how do we gain access to the wiring from the keyboards, pedalboard and tab switches? Mark is going to be flying by the seat of his pants today.
If neither of these methods work, I honestly don't know what we are going to do. The only question then may be Phillips head or Flat?
Bach On
A lot of unknowns.
I'd think in terms of flexibility, maintainabilty, simplicity, and future options. I sure wouldn't want to be caught in the kind of gotcha you are in now. And not leaving any cliche unmentioned, now or inevitably you'll need to bite the bullet.
Not kidding.
Ben
I'd think in terms of flexibility, maintainabilty, simplicity, and future options. I sure wouldn't want to be caught in the kind of gotcha you are in now. And not leaving any cliche unmentioned, now or inevitably you'll need to bite the bullet.
Not kidding.
Ben
YES!!!!!! 😀
We got the digital system working this afternoon. And it sounds great! All the concern about not having enough bass were in vain. We actually had to turn the bass down a little. That's what I wanted the option to be able to do.
Mark said that we got a new version of Peterson's MIDI. He said he'd used the older Peterson MIDI without problems several times. But this was the first time with the new Peterson product. It sends SYSEX messages that caused the Artisan stuff to stop working.
He had to do some soldering and change some plugs in the Peterson stuff. We also had to change a DIP switch. Bob Dommer talked him through it by phone. But Mark wasn't on the phone more than about 10 minutes. It took him about an hour to get things done. Instead of using the standard MIDI OUT. We're using the Instrument Out. It doesn't send the SYSEX messages.
We tested each division. And they all worked fine.
When I let Mark play and I walked around the Sanctuary, I had tears in my eyes. I'd been working on this for so many months. And to finally hear it was just so great. 🙂 The sound fills the Sanctuary very well. Strong, but not over-powering.
I'll be doing adjustments and tweaking things over the next few days - perhaps for weeks. But Mark and I agree that it is a very nice sound already. He said the speakers worked very well with the digital sounds. I can hear some vibration on a couple of notes. I suspect it is some pipes in the chamber. I'm going to get someone to play the problem notes while I go in the chamber and listen for the rattles and vibrations.
Thanks to everyone here for their invaluable advice, terrific help and constant encouragement. I doubt it would sound anywhere as good without the guidance I received.
I didn't get the Rolls unit in the mix. But I'll get it done soon and see what results I get with it in the mix.
The doctor said the finger bone is now healed. I'll just have to play to get the stiffness and mobility worked out and going.
Ben - if you ask me to take measurements - you can just forget it! 😉 I've got to practice and figure out what to play Sunday. I will do some measurements later. But I'm already pleased with what I'm hearing. It was worth the wait.
The only complexity will be if we need to change the voices or alter the voices or the individual notes. After this is done initially, anyone would find it works like any other organ.
FYI: the volume adjustment of all individual ranks goes from -10 through +10. Minus is softer, plus is louder. Currently, all are set at 0 - which is the mid-way point. I can see a few need beefing up and others may need to be turned down. But Mark showed me how to do that.
Got a hair cut early in the morning. Then it's off to the church to play!!!
Bach On
We got the digital system working this afternoon. And it sounds great! All the concern about not having enough bass were in vain. We actually had to turn the bass down a little. That's what I wanted the option to be able to do.
Mark said that we got a new version of Peterson's MIDI. He said he'd used the older Peterson MIDI without problems several times. But this was the first time with the new Peterson product. It sends SYSEX messages that caused the Artisan stuff to stop working.
He had to do some soldering and change some plugs in the Peterson stuff. We also had to change a DIP switch. Bob Dommer talked him through it by phone. But Mark wasn't on the phone more than about 10 minutes. It took him about an hour to get things done. Instead of using the standard MIDI OUT. We're using the Instrument Out. It doesn't send the SYSEX messages.
We tested each division. And they all worked fine.
When I let Mark play and I walked around the Sanctuary, I had tears in my eyes. I'd been working on this for so many months. And to finally hear it was just so great. 🙂 The sound fills the Sanctuary very well. Strong, but not over-powering.
I'll be doing adjustments and tweaking things over the next few days - perhaps for weeks. But Mark and I agree that it is a very nice sound already. He said the speakers worked very well with the digital sounds. I can hear some vibration on a couple of notes. I suspect it is some pipes in the chamber. I'm going to get someone to play the problem notes while I go in the chamber and listen for the rattles and vibrations.
Thanks to everyone here for their invaluable advice, terrific help and constant encouragement. I doubt it would sound anywhere as good without the guidance I received.
I didn't get the Rolls unit in the mix. But I'll get it done soon and see what results I get with it in the mix.
The doctor said the finger bone is now healed. I'll just have to play to get the stiffness and mobility worked out and going.
Ben - if you ask me to take measurements - you can just forget it! 😉 I've got to practice and figure out what to play Sunday. I will do some measurements later. But I'm already pleased with what I'm hearing. It was worth the wait.
The only complexity will be if we need to change the voices or alter the voices or the individual notes. After this is done initially, anyone would find it works like any other organ.
FYI: the volume adjustment of all individual ranks goes from -10 through +10. Minus is softer, plus is louder. Currently, all are set at 0 - which is the mid-way point. I can see a few need beefing up and others may need to be turned down. But Mark showed me how to do that.
Got a hair cut early in the morning. Then it's off to the church to play!!!
Bach On
How to Sclupt a Statue of an Elephant?
From the block of stone you are given, just chip away everything that is not an Elephant. Guess you can put the chisel down for now. WHG
YES!!!!!! 😀
>snip>
Got a hair cut early in the morning. Then it's off to the church to play!!!
Bach On
From the block of stone you are given, just chip away everything that is not an Elephant. Guess you can put the chisel down for now. WHG
I did a little organ demo for the choir last night after choir practice. I played it full and loud to impress.
I think it did.
Many of these people are the ones who contributed substantial money for the organ fund. And they serve as good barometers for the remainder of our congregation.
Still have lots to do. But it is already a great improvement.
Bach On
I think it did.
Many of these people are the ones who contributed substantial money for the organ fund. And they serve as good barometers for the remainder of our congregation.
Still have lots to do. But it is already a great improvement.
Bach On
Hi Bach On,
Post #425: "...it sounds great! All the concern about not having enough bass were in vain. We actually had to turn the bass down a little."
That's what I was hoping for 🙂. And with your tenacity you'll get all the little rattles and resonances fixed too.
Regards,
Post #425: "...it sounds great! All the concern about not having enough bass were in vain. We actually had to turn the bass down a little."
That's what I was hoping for 🙂. And with your tenacity you'll get all the little rattles and resonances fixed too.
Regards,
I see a few downloads. But I don't know the program that will open them up.
I used notepad and found the data.
Thanks!
I used notepad and found the data.
Thanks!
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WinISD and TL.app will open .wdr I think. I also recently saw a couple of sets of measured parameters of these drivers on AVS forum which were not really even close to what you measured but I thought this thread was done so I didn't bother poking the bear.
Since we are apparently still talking about this, here's the t/s measurements I was referring to. I found a third one as well while searching for the first two.
HT 18 D4 TS Parameters - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Anyone have an accurate SI 18" 4ohm VC winISD file ? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
What are the optimum drivers for the Stonehenge enclosure from DIYSG? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
These are all measurements of the D4, can't remember if OP has D2 or D4 but it really doesn't matter much. Looking only at MMS they should be very similar on both models, it's all the same soft parts with a slightly different coil. It would not be cost effective to use different parts other than the coil.
These measurements put MMS at 458g, 499g, and 480g. Right in the ballpark of the manufacturer published specs and Ricci's prototype measurement. Compare that to your measurements at 843g and 592g.
I don't know what production run these were from but they were posted on 05-14-2015,10-27-2014, 10-06-2015.
Your measured MMS (the corrected lower MMS) is in the neighbourhood of 100 - 150 grams more than these. That implies all new soft parts, not a different factory assembling the same parts. I think it is overwhelmingly unlikely that all new soft parts are being used. There's no way specs could drift THAT far without a word from Stereo Integrity. It's not a reputable company when it comes to accurate specs but even they are not THAT bad.
HT 18 D4 TS Parameters - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Anyone have an accurate SI 18" 4ohm VC winISD file ? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
What are the optimum drivers for the Stonehenge enclosure from DIYSG? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
These are all measurements of the D4, can't remember if OP has D2 or D4 but it really doesn't matter much. Looking only at MMS they should be very similar on both models, it's all the same soft parts with a slightly different coil. It would not be cost effective to use different parts other than the coil.
These measurements put MMS at 458g, 499g, and 480g. Right in the ballpark of the manufacturer published specs and Ricci's prototype measurement. Compare that to your measurements at 843g and 592g.
I don't know what production run these were from but they were posted on 05-14-2015,10-27-2014, 10-06-2015.
Your measured MMS (the corrected lower MMS) is in the neighbourhood of 100 - 150 grams more than these. That implies all new soft parts, not a different factory assembling the same parts. I think it is overwhelmingly unlikely that all new soft parts are being used. There's no way specs could drift THAT far without a word from Stereo Integrity. It's not a reputable company when it comes to accurate specs but even they are not THAT bad.
Have you talked to Nick?
Please be careful of what you dogmatically state.
You know my qualifications.
And you may know or not know who I deal with and who I know in the audio business. And who calls me for testing and advice in all things audio related.
I state the facts as carefully as I can. I do make mistakes. And when in error I both admit it and correct it.
The measurements I made are as valid as the ones you post until we know the methods used to make the measurements and can compare them.
If they were done as constant current and mass added methods they are a valid comparison. A driver set up vertically or horizontally on a table makes very little difference. But there is a possibility that the measurement systems themselves are the source of the variances.
How I know this is from first hand experience with working with many other measurement systems.
CLIO
MLSSA
KLIPPEL
WTPRO
WT2
WT3
DATS
ARTA
REW
And the good old SCOPE and FUNCTION GENERATOR and MULTIMETER method.
I have used all of these. And compared all of these to my reference WTPRO.
And not just once or twice. But on a regular basis.
I can tell you from experience that the WT3 and the DATS system offer the greatest variability in the measurements produced. I had a number of clients that had them and within 5 minutes of taking a measurement we had two different sets of parameters to look at. Not something that I would base a design off of. And the other soundcard based systems when properly calibrated are pretty much spot on.
You speak with high regard about the Klippel system. And you should. It is a well engineered factually based on empirical evidence method of measuring drivers.
Please note that I have exactly the same measurements on drivers that were Klippel tested by RedRock Acoustics. Can you say that of any test you have performed? I keep these as a golden standard. Carefully tucked away in a nice box. They are my sanity test. Also note that There are a few different methods of calibrating my tester that only Klippel and WTPRO have in common.
Has your test equipment or the equipment of those whom you are comparing the measurements with been verified as accurate by an outside party?
Your guess that there is variation in the soft parts is pretty educated. And very believable. And is most likely the cause of the variation.
This driver is in a class all by itself. An enormous value for the price.
But that cost constraint has it's limitations. And we can see an example of what can happens within a run of drivers when they are offered at a cost that is so favorable to the consumer.
All I'm saying is that there are 6 measurements in total, 3 that I just posted, one is manufacturer's published spec and one is the prototype tested by Ricci on data-bass. All these are in close agreement with the MMS spec.
The 6th measurement is yours. It has a vastly different MMS than all the others. And I'll hazard a guess and say that yours was the only one that was measured in a car.
I've stated from the beginning that I believe that is what is causing the difference. There are many boundaries and cavities in a car in close proximity to the DUT that can affect the impedance curve even if the doors and trunk are open. There's still an environmental loading on the driver.
As we all know if you take an enclosed speaker and measure impedance outside you will get a different curve than if you measure it in a concrete basement in a corner of the room. The same thing goes for drivers not in an enclosure. The environment with it's boundaries and cavities will affect the impedance curve.
I can't vet any of the measurements, the only one of the 6 with published details about the measurement and equipment used is Ricci's as far as I know. But the fact that 5 of them are close and one of them is unlike all the others is a huge red flag to me. 100 - 150 g change in MMS is not indictative of normal differences in production runs or even production runs from different factories using the same parts. These are all off the shelf parts, I seriously doubt he changed up the parts list in between production runs. Even if he did, it would probably be changes that decrease MMS, not increase it, since that's how you save money.
Anyway, looking at the post date of 05-14-2015 on the one measurement, it's very likely that is from the same production run anyway and MMS on that one is 458 g. And it appears to have been measured with REW, not DATS to WT3. For the others you can blame this on WT3 and DATS all you want (if that's what was used to measure) but I'm not buying it. It is a terrible device but consistency and accuracy are not problems that I've read about (assuming the device is actually working, which is a big problem). It might not be as accurate as other measurement systems but it isn't going to be 150 g off in MMS.
The 6th measurement is yours. It has a vastly different MMS than all the others. And I'll hazard a guess and say that yours was the only one that was measured in a car.
I've stated from the beginning that I believe that is what is causing the difference. There are many boundaries and cavities in a car in close proximity to the DUT that can affect the impedance curve even if the doors and trunk are open. There's still an environmental loading on the driver.
As we all know if you take an enclosed speaker and measure impedance outside you will get a different curve than if you measure it in a concrete basement in a corner of the room. The same thing goes for drivers not in an enclosure. The environment with it's boundaries and cavities will affect the impedance curve.
I can't vet any of the measurements, the only one of the 6 with published details about the measurement and equipment used is Ricci's as far as I know. But the fact that 5 of them are close and one of them is unlike all the others is a huge red flag to me. 100 - 150 g change in MMS is not indictative of normal differences in production runs or even production runs from different factories using the same parts. These are all off the shelf parts, I seriously doubt he changed up the parts list in between production runs. Even if he did, it would probably be changes that decrease MMS, not increase it, since that's how you save money.
Anyway, looking at the post date of 05-14-2015 on the one measurement, it's very likely that is from the same production run anyway and MMS on that one is 458 g. And it appears to have been measured with REW, not DATS to WT3. For the others you can blame this on WT3 and DATS all you want (if that's what was used to measure) but I'm not buying it. It is a terrible device but consistency and accuracy are not problems that I've read about (assuming the device is actually working, which is a big problem). It might not be as accurate as other measurement systems but it isn't going to be 150 g off in MMS.
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