Ah, cars...the love/hate necessity of civilization. In some ways, it'll be better when the oil runs out, and we go back to horses. If a horse pisses you off, you can eat it. The ultimate revenge. 😉
I'm kidding, of course. 'We' will likely have some sort of electric/hydrogen/"Mr. Fusion" transports to be irritated at and will be totally inedible...
I remember the W2's. I had suggested them to a friend at the time who bought a pair, and they Did sound good as I remember. He was thrilled, and I was the amateur 'expert' who'd thought they were 'the real thing'. And as omnis were then, they were the only thing for their price point that Actually Worked...Good. Funny how time and a little education changes one's perspective...yet again...
And re 'the effort', yeah, me too. *L* It's being an interesting mental/technical exercise, and so far yielding pleasant results given the materials I'm employing towards it. And I'm hoping to continue improving 'my breed'. Even if in the final analysis, if all that comes of it is to leave a definitive 'how to' manual for another DIYer to refer to and a vid or 2 that teases that person into the effort, I won't be utterly disappointed. Just moving the 'high water mark' up a tad can be a reward...
As is said, we stand on the shoulders of giants...and life is a relay race writ large...*S* Now if I can only get this torch to not sputter so much....😉
I'm kidding, of course. 'We' will likely have some sort of electric/hydrogen/"Mr. Fusion" transports to be irritated at and will be totally inedible...
I remember the W2's. I had suggested them to a friend at the time who bought a pair, and they Did sound good as I remember. He was thrilled, and I was the amateur 'expert' who'd thought they were 'the real thing'. And as omnis were then, they were the only thing for their price point that Actually Worked...Good. Funny how time and a little education changes one's perspective...yet again...
And re 'the effort', yeah, me too. *L* It's being an interesting mental/technical exercise, and so far yielding pleasant results given the materials I'm employing towards it. And I'm hoping to continue improving 'my breed'. Even if in the final analysis, if all that comes of it is to leave a definitive 'how to' manual for another DIYer to refer to and a vid or 2 that teases that person into the effort, I won't be utterly disappointed. Just moving the 'high water mark' up a tad can be a reward...
As is said, we stand on the shoulders of giants...and life is a relay race writ large...*S* Now if I can only get this torch to not sputter so much....😉
Jer-
I mentioned the older Altec and JBL drivers to get folks thinking about what makes a really good full range driver. Maybe some more patent research is in order. It was and is possible to get broad-band performance out of larger drivers, albeit at the expense of a little efficiency. But nowadays, power is cheap, and voice coil technology has come a long way in terms of power handling and durability. Just a matter of finding the stuff.
I, too at one point had some LE-8's, but they sounded so good (open back baffles) I was loathe to tear then up. One of my shining moments was putting 20 of them in 8 cu ft boxes in the ceiling over the piano lounge at the old Union Plaza in Vegas. They cried bloody murder when they got the bill, but when they heard the room, not another word.
Anyway, I digress-
Hope your recone guy got it right-
I mentioned the older Altec and JBL drivers to get folks thinking about what makes a really good full range driver. Maybe some more patent research is in order. It was and is possible to get broad-band performance out of larger drivers, albeit at the expense of a little efficiency. But nowadays, power is cheap, and voice coil technology has come a long way in terms of power handling and durability. Just a matter of finding the stuff.
I, too at one point had some LE-8's, but they sounded so good (open back baffles) I was loathe to tear then up. One of my shining moments was putting 20 of them in 8 cu ft boxes in the ceiling over the piano lounge at the old Union Plaza in Vegas. They cried bloody murder when they got the bill, but when they heard the room, not another word.
Anyway, I digress-
Hope your recone guy got it right-
Glo, that train of thought is what is making me consider tearing into (or up) instrument speakers as opposed to 'hi-fi'/audiophile intended speakers as a 'motor' for my investigations. They're designed for high power levels, robust construction (one can hope), and I change their 'nature' (if you will) so radically that other than the basic specs with regard to the voice coil parameters, heat tolerance, and the like...their 'normal' characteristics become moot. "Well, I guess they sounded good." *L*
And, to be honest, I eyed my LE-8's and thought "Hmmm.....nah..." I had them reconed by Orange County Speakers in CA, who ought to know what they're doing by now. So I'll let them live (relive?) a normal activity. Besides, I've got the mids, dome tweets, and xovers that came with them... Once upon a time they resided in a pair of abused cabinets until I rescued them literally from an apt. complex trash.
I've got a pair of Utah D12P's woofs and their matching H-068 horns that are going to become my shop speakers when I figure out just how weird looking I can make them hanging from the ceiling. *L* They aren't 'big power' rated, so I'd rather they replace the cheapie double pair of Pioneer bookshelf units I'm currently abusing there. The D12's need reconing, which I've done before. The voice coils and spiders are in good shape, so I'm just going to do the 'cone swap' that I do with one of my Walsh cones.
As for 'full range' and that pursuit, I'm still more focused on investigating the diameter where the cone 'begins' trying to act like a conventional woofer. As you pointed out, perusal of the patent may lend a hint as to where that transition occurs. I'd rather let the cone handle the frequencies it's intended (or that I intend) for it to reproduce, and let a more conventional woofer handle the bottom. Bass is omnidirectional by it's nature, anyway.
Besides, HHR has worked out how to make the original full range design work. I'd rather head off on my own tangent. *G*
And, to be honest, I eyed my LE-8's and thought "Hmmm.....nah..." I had them reconed by Orange County Speakers in CA, who ought to know what they're doing by now. So I'll let them live (relive?) a normal activity. Besides, I've got the mids, dome tweets, and xovers that came with them... Once upon a time they resided in a pair of abused cabinets until I rescued them literally from an apt. complex trash.
I've got a pair of Utah D12P's woofs and their matching H-068 horns that are going to become my shop speakers when I figure out just how weird looking I can make them hanging from the ceiling. *L* They aren't 'big power' rated, so I'd rather they replace the cheapie double pair of Pioneer bookshelf units I'm currently abusing there. The D12's need reconing, which I've done before. The voice coils and spiders are in good shape, so I'm just going to do the 'cone swap' that I do with one of my Walsh cones.
As for 'full range' and that pursuit, I'm still more focused on investigating the diameter where the cone 'begins' trying to act like a conventional woofer. As you pointed out, perusal of the patent may lend a hint as to where that transition occurs. I'd rather let the cone handle the frequencies it's intended (or that I intend) for it to reproduce, and let a more conventional woofer handle the bottom. Bass is omnidirectional by it's nature, anyway.
Besides, HHR has worked out how to make the original full range design work. I'd rather head off on my own tangent. *G*
Jer-
Please don't tear up your LE8's. There are a number of sites dedicated to them. Personally, I would ditch the crossover and tweeter and let 'em run bareback. You will be surprised at how good they sound, especially w/o the phase distortion of the xover.
Now, on to the motors. I did some research on the web two years ago, and again this afternoon and found some interesting stuff.
There are at least two outfits that will custom build voice coils. One does aluminum. You get to specify all the dimensional stuff- Don't have a feel for prices yet- will call.
One of the difficulties in building a magnetic structure is getting the magnet itself. Today I saw a woofer whose magnetic assembly was made of six or so stacks of very powerful rare earth disc magnets arranged about the pole. Very easily customizable.
Looking a little further, I found a site that sells these magnets at surprisingly affordable prices. Some are so powerful they come with safety warnings about getting your skin caught between a magnet and a piece of iron! Now you get to choose how strong your magnet is!
As for the magnetic assembly itself, I don't see anything that can't be made on a small metal lathe with better results and tighter tolerances (most parts in low cost speakers are die punched). We just need to learn more about the iron alloys used in these assemblies.
Most magnetic assemblies are zinc or cadmium plated to resist corrosion- a simple dip in a slightly acidic copper sulphate solution will accomplish the same goal. Copper likes iron if it is clean and has been degreased. Electroplating, while simple, is optional.
While we're building our motor, and since we have some leeway, why not look at motional feedback? A simple extra turn or two of wire on the voice coil, or better yet a co-axial variable capacitor using the metallic voice coil former and the pole piece of the magnetic assembly could provide capacitive positional signals of the cone motion to the driving amplifier.
Maybe it's possible to trim the servo's response to adjust that "mechanical crossover" point to suit the roll-off response of the cone?
What the hell was that stuff anyway?
Please don't tear up your LE8's. There are a number of sites dedicated to them. Personally, I would ditch the crossover and tweeter and let 'em run bareback. You will be surprised at how good they sound, especially w/o the phase distortion of the xover.
Now, on to the motors. I did some research on the web two years ago, and again this afternoon and found some interesting stuff.
There are at least two outfits that will custom build voice coils. One does aluminum. You get to specify all the dimensional stuff- Don't have a feel for prices yet- will call.
One of the difficulties in building a magnetic structure is getting the magnet itself. Today I saw a woofer whose magnetic assembly was made of six or so stacks of very powerful rare earth disc magnets arranged about the pole. Very easily customizable.
Looking a little further, I found a site that sells these magnets at surprisingly affordable prices. Some are so powerful they come with safety warnings about getting your skin caught between a magnet and a piece of iron! Now you get to choose how strong your magnet is!
As for the magnetic assembly itself, I don't see anything that can't be made on a small metal lathe with better results and tighter tolerances (most parts in low cost speakers are die punched). We just need to learn more about the iron alloys used in these assemblies.
Most magnetic assemblies are zinc or cadmium plated to resist corrosion- a simple dip in a slightly acidic copper sulphate solution will accomplish the same goal. Copper likes iron if it is clean and has been degreased. Electroplating, while simple, is optional.
While we're building our motor, and since we have some leeway, why not look at motional feedback? A simple extra turn or two of wire on the voice coil, or better yet a co-axial variable capacitor using the metallic voice coil former and the pole piece of the magnetic assembly could provide capacitive positional signals of the cone motion to the driving amplifier.
Maybe it's possible to trim the servo's response to adjust that "mechanical crossover" point to suit the roll-off response of the cone?
What the hell was that stuff anyway?
oooh I like were this is going... What I would day is ditch using what ever you are using and design and plan for a motor that can take some customization. What I mean is find a way to cool the voice coil to the allowable range be it heat sinks heat pipes vaper chambers. cooling vents and then look for a driver that would allow for those things. Or build a motor and let me know step by step I am very interested. also I forgot grammar
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"Today's episode: Glo goes incendiary" *L*
*LOL* Put the coffee cup down, and step away.... 😉
No, I'm Not going to slice 'n dice my LE8's...nice recones, and I've got some scruples about 'ancient audio'...although calling it 'ancient' kinda tosses me into that category as well, but WTF. *L*
You've obviously been busy. *G* Intriguing, all that, and certainly a solution that would eliminate the 'cut & try' of using/modifying existing drivers. That, and it would allow for designing a driver/motor that could be 'physically elegant', without the basket structure that comes with the existing driver...
I like that. I like the 'look' of the GP drivers, in the way that the cone is totally exposed, top to bottom...contributes to proper radiation without anything in the way, short of the vertical posts on some of their versions.
Motional feedback would be 'tres' cool', and very 'bleeding edge'. 😉 I'd dial in a heat sensor as a 'fail safe', but perhaps I'm just being paranoid. I could get over that. *L* MF and active eq would be killa'...
BTB, speaking of 'diversions'....
Do you remember the ESS Transars?
Have a look back...
https://www.google.com/search?q=ess...v&sa=X&ei=hEybVea3CsGuyASs76qYBA&ved=0CCwQsAQ
I do. I actually got to hear them. They were, as is noted, phenomenal. They were also fragile as eggs and, like the original Ohms, 'victims' of the current technology of the time. But what popped into my greyed matter literally just in the past hour was the way the bass stack was driven. The 'rod array' drove the stacked diaphragms, it was just mesmerizing to watch it....
...and it occurred to me...could a cone be driven by a single rod? What if you 'flip' the equation, and make the voice coil the magnet? The magnet is within a coil, 'spidered' top and bottom. The cone could be tapered to a diameter small enough to eliminate the need for a 'tweeter' of any sort. And as for the bass...well, I'm still of a mind to let a conventional woofer deal down there....
Make the whole cone out of carbon fiber or titanium. Making that 'birthday cake' layered cone makes my head hurt, and I've not even tried to make one. *L*
Anyway...poke holes in that conjecture...tell me I should stop taking drugs, or do different ones. *LOL* It just seems too obvious to have not been tried.
Even if you had to run a bias current to light it up, like your ML's...how crazy is that?
*LOL* Put the coffee cup down, and step away.... 😉
No, I'm Not going to slice 'n dice my LE8's...nice recones, and I've got some scruples about 'ancient audio'...although calling it 'ancient' kinda tosses me into that category as well, but WTF. *L*
You've obviously been busy. *G* Intriguing, all that, and certainly a solution that would eliminate the 'cut & try' of using/modifying existing drivers. That, and it would allow for designing a driver/motor that could be 'physically elegant', without the basket structure that comes with the existing driver...
I like that. I like the 'look' of the GP drivers, in the way that the cone is totally exposed, top to bottom...contributes to proper radiation without anything in the way, short of the vertical posts on some of their versions.
Motional feedback would be 'tres' cool', and very 'bleeding edge'. 😉 I'd dial in a heat sensor as a 'fail safe', but perhaps I'm just being paranoid. I could get over that. *L* MF and active eq would be killa'...
BTB, speaking of 'diversions'....
Do you remember the ESS Transars?
Have a look back...
https://www.google.com/search?q=ess...v&sa=X&ei=hEybVea3CsGuyASs76qYBA&ved=0CCwQsAQ
I do. I actually got to hear them. They were, as is noted, phenomenal. They were also fragile as eggs and, like the original Ohms, 'victims' of the current technology of the time. But what popped into my greyed matter literally just in the past hour was the way the bass stack was driven. The 'rod array' drove the stacked diaphragms, it was just mesmerizing to watch it....
...and it occurred to me...could a cone be driven by a single rod? What if you 'flip' the equation, and make the voice coil the magnet? The magnet is within a coil, 'spidered' top and bottom. The cone could be tapered to a diameter small enough to eliminate the need for a 'tweeter' of any sort. And as for the bass...well, I'm still of a mind to let a conventional woofer deal down there....
Make the whole cone out of carbon fiber or titanium. Making that 'birthday cake' layered cone makes my head hurt, and I've not even tried to make one. *L*
Anyway...poke holes in that conjecture...tell me I should stop taking drugs, or do different ones. *LOL* It just seems too obvious to have not been tried.
Even if you had to run a bias current to light it up, like your ML's...how crazy is that?
I have also been toying with that concept. And, one that would shrink a distributed source (relatively large voice coil) to a virtual point source.
Yeah, I thought about that too. But there's the practicality of the physical connection twixt cone and driven element, and how tightly you could make the apex of the cone. That's something I've run into with my 5 mil aluminum; the apex overlap is the area that's hardest to keep together, due to 'spring back' of the material....
And I think there's the 'law of diminishing returns' in there...anything from that narrow portion of the cone might go supersonic, and only impress your dog. *L*
"Well, how's it sound?"
"I'm not sure yet. Everytime I turn them up the dog tries to bite them..." *L*
And I think there's the 'law of diminishing returns' in there...anything from that narrow portion of the cone might go supersonic, and only impress your dog. *L*
"Well, how's it sound?"
"I'm not sure yet. Everytime I turn them up the dog tries to bite them..." *L*
Mags, BTB...(Sorry, got distracted by visions...*G*)...re your #345 (nice, consecutive numbers....SEE!? *L*)
Yeah, this would have a simplicity that borders on blatant. *L* Easier to cool from the get-go, as the plates above and below the coil could be aluminum that could 'hard attach' to the coil former. And lots of air around it, instead of being buried in the structure. I think the physics involved would work...it's just a linear motor after all, and they're not that uncommon. In this case, it would simply be restrained by the spiders top & bottom. And given a large enough coil and rare earth magnets, you could probably use it to drive nails. *L* Exciting a cone ought to be a piece of cake....
*Shrug* Like I've posted...Someone poke some holes in this. It just seems too easy, and anytime I hear or read about anything 'easy' (remember cold fusion?), I get suspicious and the BS Detector goes off....
...and I don't like the idea that it's coming from Me. *L*
Yeah, this would have a simplicity that borders on blatant. *L* Easier to cool from the get-go, as the plates above and below the coil could be aluminum that could 'hard attach' to the coil former. And lots of air around it, instead of being buried in the structure. I think the physics involved would work...it's just a linear motor after all, and they're not that uncommon. In this case, it would simply be restrained by the spiders top & bottom. And given a large enough coil and rare earth magnets, you could probably use it to drive nails. *L* Exciting a cone ought to be a piece of cake....
*Shrug* Like I've posted...Someone poke some holes in this. It just seems too easy, and anytime I hear or read about anything 'easy' (remember cold fusion?), I get suspicious and the BS Detector goes off....
...and I don't like the idea that it's coming from Me. *L*
Yeah, that's a problem that gets worse the smaller one goes with the apex. Your right there. Possibly the apex could be fabricated some other way and then mated to the cone later.
I decided a few days ago that my next cone would be driven in this fashion, just to see what transpires...
(Oh, there you are....*L*) Hi...
Cool, that will be a interesting test to run. With the 2 mil alum, you should be able to form the apex tighter than I can currently. Attachment to the vc might be problematic...unless you try using a piezo or something dinky, you'll have to dream up some sort of 'vc plug' to mate the cone to....*shrug*
For the 'V.X' concept, I was thinking along the lines of the way a router bit is secured into a router's collet. A tapered cone into a tapered receiver, with a matching tapered plug into the center of the cone. One could almost 'hot swap' the cones, if one could make the surround do the relative same thing....
...and I just thought of How...*slaps forehead*...
Yeah, I Do need sedating...*wry S*
Cool, that will be a interesting test to run. With the 2 mil alum, you should be able to form the apex tighter than I can currently. Attachment to the vc might be problematic...unless you try using a piezo or something dinky, you'll have to dream up some sort of 'vc plug' to mate the cone to....*shrug*
For the 'V.X' concept, I was thinking along the lines of the way a router bit is secured into a router's collet. A tapered cone into a tapered receiver, with a matching tapered plug into the center of the cone. One could almost 'hot swap' the cones, if one could make the surround do the relative same thing....
...and I just thought of How...*slaps forehead*...
Yeah, I Do need sedating...*wry S*
Thanks for the link. I found the Heil patent a few years ago, but never knew they actually made any working examples. That patent (and the stuff he mentions) has always intrigued me.
OK....voice coil plug..
Small piece of Lexan or any polycarb (polycarbs don't crack or shatter). Use a 'bell bit' to drill a disc. Insert screw into center hole of disc, clamp into stationary electric drill, use as a 'tabletop lathe'. Sand into desired diameter. Use center hole to attach cone.
Viola'. Watcha' got for a driver? *G*
Small piece of Lexan or any polycarb (polycarbs don't crack or shatter). Use a 'bell bit' to drill a disc. Insert screw into center hole of disc, clamp into stationary electric drill, use as a 'tabletop lathe'. Sand into desired diameter. Use center hole to attach cone.
Viola'. Watcha' got for a driver? *G*
Yeah, they actually worked. An absolute 'trip' to watch and hear them. I remember the rep telling me that a pair that they shipped to a show in Chicago got virtually destroyed by the freight company, and they had a wonderful all nighter putting them back together in time... Things like that befall some of the stuff we receive from out playground equipment suppliers. They shipped us once four slides, jammed vertically into a 4'x4' box on a pallet. It looked like a box of oversized french fries, and it was a bitch to unpack. All I could do was Sawzall the box vertically, and let everything fall over. Twits...
Well, I was thinking that the "Conus" guy may have adopted a piezo driver for some of the same reasons, i.e., the achieve good high frequency transduction.
Or this feller, here...
IKONOKLAST.ORG
...Something Small going on there....although I don't agree with apex to apex like that, given current experience. Takes a lot of people to fill a freeway, though...*G*
IKONOKLAST.ORG
...Something Small going on there....although I don't agree with apex to apex like that, given current experience. Takes a lot of people to fill a freeway, though...*G*