TYU,
Why has this came to be a vendetta with you , You don't even understand what Dave is doing!!!! even if it's written in plain english, I know it will work, all he did was remove the perforated panel with the magnets glued on, it can be replace later, as it's also screwed in place as well, and has to go back in exactly the same position or screws holes won't line up, Quit being a transfer parrot. This is a good procedure, save's a lot of time in rebuilding the bass section and the MRTW mount is like it should be, That said, back off please, till at least you know what your talking about.
Why has this came to be a vendetta with you , You don't even understand what Dave is doing!!!! even if it's written in plain english, I know it will work, all he did was remove the perforated panel with the magnets glued on, it can be replace later, as it's also screwed in place as well, and has to go back in exactly the same position or screws holes won't line up, Quit being a transfer parrot. This is a good procedure, save's a lot of time in rebuilding the bass section and the MRTW mount is like it should be, That said, back off please, till at least you know what your talking about.
Looks like hes going to cut some wood to fit the Duettas bass opening....mount some bass drivers.....looks tuff.....like something you could do Al..
Just more Sussilliness.....
Just more Sussilliness.....
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It's not surprising Graz and some of his followers would ignorantly ridicule my efforts on this project. And it's pretty clear tyu doesn't have anything constructive to offer. I would have expected nothing less. 🙂
Fortunately, Graz can't operate with impunity on this forum and delete/edit my comments. 🙂
Anyways, back to the topic at hand.
Al, no, not Watkins or Dayton 12" drivers. 🙂 Those are larger than the cover opening....at least most of it. Also, not preferable from a polar response standpoint....IMHO.
An array of smaller drivers will narrow higher in frequency than a couple (or single) of larger drivers and yield a better polar response match to the MRT. That, in conjunction with a modified crossover scheme, should yield a horizontal polar response transition with very little abruptness.
The drivers are 6.5" Peerless transducers which are fairly inexpensive. (I'm going to use six of them in each speaker.) If you compute the Xmax*SD*6 product of these six drivers compared to a couple of larger cones, the maximum SPL capability is nearly the same. The woofer section of this system will be able to play LOUD and clean. 🙂
Cheers,
Dave.
Fortunately, Graz can't operate with impunity on this forum and delete/edit my comments. 🙂
Anyways, back to the topic at hand.
Al, no, not Watkins or Dayton 12" drivers. 🙂 Those are larger than the cover opening....at least most of it. Also, not preferable from a polar response standpoint....IMHO.
An array of smaller drivers will narrow higher in frequency than a couple (or single) of larger drivers and yield a better polar response match to the MRT. That, in conjunction with a modified crossover scheme, should yield a horizontal polar response transition with very little abruptness.
The drivers are 6.5" Peerless transducers which are fairly inexpensive. (I'm going to use six of them in each speaker.) If you compute the Xmax*SD*6 product of these six drivers compared to a couple of larger cones, the maximum SPL capability is nearly the same. The woofer section of this system will be able to play LOUD and clean. 🙂
Cheers,
Dave.
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I, for one, am watching Dave's progress with much interest. Simply because i find this whole topic fascinating. I hope I never need to do it, but if it comes down to that I will be thankful for someone doing it before me.
I really wish all the potshots would stop as it's going to kill this thread early.
Seriously, if someone is going to be dissuaded from applying the silicone fix to their speakers by weak assertions that they will be destroying them, then that person probably shouldn't do it.
That being said, people with buzzing Stages have no other options than to apply silicone or find some one who can. Those with damaged woofer panels have no other recourse than to do what Dave is doing or find someone to do it for them or throw them in the garbage.
This has all been established early on and doesn't need to be rehashed every other post.
I really wish all the potshots would stop as it's going to kill this thread early.
Seriously, if someone is going to be dissuaded from applying the silicone fix to their speakers by weak assertions that they will be destroying them, then that person probably shouldn't do it.
That being said, people with buzzing Stages have no other options than to apply silicone or find some one who can. Those with damaged woofer panels have no other recourse than to do what Dave is doing or find someone to do it for them or throw them in the garbage.
This has all been established early on and doesn't need to be rehashed every other post.
Hi, Davey
I wonder, whether Peerless #830657 SDS Line 6.5" Woofer, is your choice?
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/peerless-woofers-6-7/peerless-830657-6.5-sds-woofer/
Best regards,
I wonder, whether Peerless #830657 SDS Line 6.5" Woofer, is your choice?
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/peerless-woofers-6-7/peerless-830657-6.5-sds-woofer/
Best regards,
No, actually they're a different Peerless model with more Xmax.....and a bit higher price. 🙂
While waiting for the drivers, I've put my other (siliconed) speaker up on the table and have been having some fun. I've run some tests visualizing the effect bear mentioned previously (very interesting) and also evaluating the silicone repair I did a while back. (It's still working fine.)
If you're investigating buzzing this is a good way to do it. It's best if you perform this testing with the speaker tipped upright (normal position) on solid surface vice horizontal on a table. This way possible table vibrations and air between the table and the speaker doesn't introduce itself to the audible result.
It's also important to have a frequency generator with a continuously variable adjustment (as I've shown in the photo) so you can manually/slowly sweep through the entire range and dwell at certain frequencies to localize issues.
You may not like what you hear, so I suggest if you have any doubts, don't do it. 🙂
On another topic, here's a quick video showing why you should not "penguin" these speakers around the floor to move them. Be very careful because twisting action of the frame can stress in places you might not expect. 🙂 Most of you Apogee-meisters are aware of this shortcoming already, but maybe it might help some of the newbies.
https://youtu.be/wLwiLlyCncI
Cheers,
Dave.
While waiting for the drivers, I've put my other (siliconed) speaker up on the table and have been having some fun. I've run some tests visualizing the effect bear mentioned previously (very interesting) and also evaluating the silicone repair I did a while back. (It's still working fine.)
If you're investigating buzzing this is a good way to do it. It's best if you perform this testing with the speaker tipped upright (normal position) on solid surface vice horizontal on a table. This way possible table vibrations and air between the table and the speaker doesn't introduce itself to the audible result.
It's also important to have a frequency generator with a continuously variable adjustment (as I've shown in the photo) so you can manually/slowly sweep through the entire range and dwell at certain frequencies to localize issues.
You may not like what you hear, so I suggest if you have any doubts, don't do it. 🙂
On another topic, here's a quick video showing why you should not "penguin" these speakers around the floor to move them. Be very careful because twisting action of the frame can stress in places you might not expect. 🙂 Most of you Apogee-meisters are aware of this shortcoming already, but maybe it might help some of the newbies.
https://youtu.be/wLwiLlyCncI
Cheers,
Dave.
Attachments
You keep mentioning me in most posts - why? OK - I'll bite. Point by point.
First up - the why you are where you are now. Total clusterf***!! If your silicone attempt on the second speaker hadn't resulted in a wrecked bass panel you would now be extolling the virtues of your handiwork. It didn't - so now you pretend you were intending to do this for research etc. The man in the mirror may be fooled, others wince...
Hybrid methodology. It is easy to take the mrtw frame off of an intact complete bass assembly (4 small bolts), and cut a simple complete trapezoid bass baffle in thicker mdf. Revesible, no harm. Holes for the cone drivers (of choice), and simple cross-dowel holes to rigidly mount the tweeter readily made. BUT - this either didn't occur to you - or you wish to perpetuate the myth this was a planned experiment by involving the damaged carcass!! Instead you take a purpose built planar ribbon structure, rip out a glued and screwed steel (it's only lateral prop) grid to make compromised space for a compromised insert requiring compromised choices that will have to be screwed into the planar bass inner aperture! How many degrees of rigidity loss, how many surplus rattly parts, what lack of rigidity when compared to a purpose built solid baffle? 6 cones generate a lot of energy, as for "ignorant" I was making speakers using the better relatives of those Peerless cones 15 years ago!
Forum. No I don't administrate (nor do I on my forum), but believe I am free to respond - especially as you continue to mention me repeatedly and attack others for finding agreement in sentiment for your published destructive course.
Bottom line. If you hadn't have failed in the silicone play - we would not be witnessing your monty-python does audio show. Sad waste of a once good speaker. And if you stopped mentioning my name in your posts all the time I wouldn't remind you of what cap you wear😉
Touching my face for you - Graz🙄
First up - the why you are where you are now. Total clusterf***!! If your silicone attempt on the second speaker hadn't resulted in a wrecked bass panel you would now be extolling the virtues of your handiwork. It didn't - so now you pretend you were intending to do this for research etc. The man in the mirror may be fooled, others wince...
Hybrid methodology. It is easy to take the mrtw frame off of an intact complete bass assembly (4 small bolts), and cut a simple complete trapezoid bass baffle in thicker mdf. Revesible, no harm. Holes for the cone drivers (of choice), and simple cross-dowel holes to rigidly mount the tweeter readily made. BUT - this either didn't occur to you - or you wish to perpetuate the myth this was a planned experiment by involving the damaged carcass!! Instead you take a purpose built planar ribbon structure, rip out a glued and screwed steel (it's only lateral prop) grid to make compromised space for a compromised insert requiring compromised choices that will have to be screwed into the planar bass inner aperture! How many degrees of rigidity loss, how many surplus rattly parts, what lack of rigidity when compared to a purpose built solid baffle? 6 cones generate a lot of energy, as for "ignorant" I was making speakers using the better relatives of those Peerless cones 15 years ago!
Forum. No I don't administrate (nor do I on my forum), but believe I am free to respond - especially as you continue to mention me repeatedly and attack others for finding agreement in sentiment for your published destructive course.
Bottom line. If you hadn't have failed in the silicone play - we would not be witnessing your monty-python does audio show. Sad waste of a once good speaker. And if you stopped mentioning my name in your posts all the time I wouldn't remind you of what cap you wear😉
Touching my face for you - Graz🙄
Ah, my effort is a "destructive Monty-Python cluster**** while wearing a *****cap" of some sort? Awesome! 🙂
I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that my silicone repair failed. I've mentioned numerous times that it worked fine. The speaker I have on the table in the latest photo IS the one I siliconed about two years ago and it's still working well. I never even attempted the silicone repair on the second speaker. I guess in addition to my *****cap, I'm wearing a liar cap too? 🙂
Regarding the hybrid effort: I'm well aware there are more expensive/better options in the Peerless line up. There are also numerous other drivers better than anything in the Peerless line up. If I were going all out I wouldn't even look in the Peerless catalog. Regardless, part of the reason I selected these particular drivers is because I already had four of them on the shelf.
The drivers you used in the FK1 system are better.....basically just one step up from the ones I'll be using. You COULD have chosen much better drivers for the Perigee system than you did.
I'm well aware of a couple of different construction options I could have taken. I chose this one.....you don't like it....BFD.
I'm still unclear on what your recommendation is for folks who have Stages with broken woofers and/or deteriorated foam. You don't offer Stage refurbishment and you believe folks attempting the silicone repair are ruining their speakers. What solution(s) ARE you offering? Maybe this spare time you have would be better spent designing/fabricating some Stage woofer ribbons to help these folks out? That, I could respect.
Regarding your forum: You're listed as "moderator" of every single area of that forum and I'm well familiar with phpBB privileges. That "moderator" status gives you complete carte blanche on that forum. The type of "discussion" we're having now would have been removed already had it happened on your forum. Deny that!
Anyways, these straw man arguments you keep responding with are ridiculous and tiresome.
Dave.
I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that my silicone repair failed. I've mentioned numerous times that it worked fine. The speaker I have on the table in the latest photo IS the one I siliconed about two years ago and it's still working well. I never even attempted the silicone repair on the second speaker. I guess in addition to my *****cap, I'm wearing a liar cap too? 🙂
Regarding the hybrid effort: I'm well aware there are more expensive/better options in the Peerless line up. There are also numerous other drivers better than anything in the Peerless line up. If I were going all out I wouldn't even look in the Peerless catalog. Regardless, part of the reason I selected these particular drivers is because I already had four of them on the shelf.
The drivers you used in the FK1 system are better.....basically just one step up from the ones I'll be using. You COULD have chosen much better drivers for the Perigee system than you did.
I'm well aware of a couple of different construction options I could have taken. I chose this one.....you don't like it....BFD.
I'm still unclear on what your recommendation is for folks who have Stages with broken woofers and/or deteriorated foam. You don't offer Stage refurbishment and you believe folks attempting the silicone repair are ruining their speakers. What solution(s) ARE you offering? Maybe this spare time you have would be better spent designing/fabricating some Stage woofer ribbons to help these folks out? That, I could respect.
Regarding your forum: You're listed as "moderator" of every single area of that forum and I'm well familiar with phpBB privileges. That "moderator" status gives you complete carte blanche on that forum. The type of "discussion" we're having now would have been removed already had it happened on your forum. Deny that!
Anyways, these straw man arguments you keep responding with are ridiculous and tiresome.
Dave.
I'm thinking the level of civility on this thread is basically lacking, and it has caught my attention over a number of days now. I'm really unhappy, please don't make me unhappy. The bickering needs to stop. NOW. Points, and bin time will follow if it continues. Note that any thought of commenting on this should be preceded by a careful look at the forum rules.I'm surprised at the moderation threat here, but okay.
Those of you familiar will know that Graz and I haven't seen eye-to-eye on Apogee matters for many years. No surprise there. 🙂
Insults regarding my DIY efforts are something I'm well used to and have come to accept. They don't really bother me, BUT they will be responded to. 🙂
Anyways, if anybody is still interested, I've pretty much completed my "hybrid" Duetta ("Daveyetta") speaker. Attached is a photo from a few days ago after the woofer installation and before I reattached the MRT. This speaker is in my listening room now and sounds darn good. The equalization estimate I programmed into my DSP unit is pretty much as expected and very similar to the tuning response of the Duetta ribbon woofer when measured up close. An approximate 6db peak centered near 40Hz yields a fairly well balanced sound.
Ultimately, I will have to remove the MRT's and take these outdoors to perform some ground-plane testing with the speaker tipped over on its side. That should yield a really good measurement, I think.
I don't see any reason why this "hybrid" approach can't be used with Stages (or others.) If you have buzzing speakers and a full-on woofer refurbishment is required, then you won't be destroying the speaker any more than an Apogee professional installer would if performing that work. And, if you construct it the way I did, you can back-out the entire modification and change direction and go with the professional option easily.
tyu, thanks for the video compliment. As you might have surmised, I have some firsthand experience with that particular failure mode. I repaired a Caliper speaker for a fellow a long time ago that cracked right where the ribbon exits the clamp. I'm not 100% positive his problem happened because of twisting action, but it seems likely since he related to me his extensive speaker positioning experiments. 🙂
I'm sure my video is being submitted to the Academy as Best Documentary Short as we speak. 🙂
Cheers,
Dave.
Those of you familiar will know that Graz and I haven't seen eye-to-eye on Apogee matters for many years. No surprise there. 🙂
Insults regarding my DIY efforts are something I'm well used to and have come to accept. They don't really bother me, BUT they will be responded to. 🙂
Anyways, if anybody is still interested, I've pretty much completed my "hybrid" Duetta ("Daveyetta") speaker. Attached is a photo from a few days ago after the woofer installation and before I reattached the MRT. This speaker is in my listening room now and sounds darn good. The equalization estimate I programmed into my DSP unit is pretty much as expected and very similar to the tuning response of the Duetta ribbon woofer when measured up close. An approximate 6db peak centered near 40Hz yields a fairly well balanced sound.
Ultimately, I will have to remove the MRT's and take these outdoors to perform some ground-plane testing with the speaker tipped over on its side. That should yield a really good measurement, I think.
I don't see any reason why this "hybrid" approach can't be used with Stages (or others.) If you have buzzing speakers and a full-on woofer refurbishment is required, then you won't be destroying the speaker any more than an Apogee professional installer would if performing that work. And, if you construct it the way I did, you can back-out the entire modification and change direction and go with the professional option easily.
tyu, thanks for the video compliment. As you might have surmised, I have some firsthand experience with that particular failure mode. I repaired a Caliper speaker for a fellow a long time ago that cracked right where the ribbon exits the clamp. I'm not 100% positive his problem happened because of twisting action, but it seems likely since he related to me his extensive speaker positioning experiments. 🙂
I'm sure my video is being submitted to the Academy as Best Documentary Short as we speak. 🙂
Cheers,
Dave.
Attachments
Looks good. I do wonder if I should have planned an array instead of a single driver, but budget not there for this round. Maybe next time...
Yes, you can always do that later. 🙂
The Apogee hybrid models with box woofers were a huge compromise....IMHO. A single woofer in a dipole configuration is a big step in the right direction.
I think folks looking at my project might think solely about bottom-end response. My primary objective here is not bottom-end response but rather optimum integration of the top-end response to the MRT.
You could make a good case that any of the Apogee speakers smaller than Duetta's should probably be three-way systems with companion dipole sub-woofers to relieve the bass responsibilities from the ribbons. However, much would depend upon listening environment, program material, and how loud a person likes to play the system. 🙂
Cheers,
Dave.
The Apogee hybrid models with box woofers were a huge compromise....IMHO. A single woofer in a dipole configuration is a big step in the right direction.
I think folks looking at my project might think solely about bottom-end response. My primary objective here is not bottom-end response but rather optimum integration of the top-end response to the MRT.
You could make a good case that any of the Apogee speakers smaller than Duetta's should probably be three-way systems with companion dipole sub-woofers to relieve the bass responsibilities from the ribbons. However, much would depend upon listening environment, program material, and how loud a person likes to play the system. 🙂
Cheers,
Dave.
I would agree with you. The 3 way that PJBlakey did with ripole bass is where I will possibly end up. Luckily you can forgive a lot for the performance of the 26" MT ribbon, at least in our teeny british living rooms.
Looks cool..........Hehe........thanks for the pic....Apogees & Acoustats can be setup in minny ways.....but still sound great....Justsaying
Best sound I ever got out of my buzzzing Duetta Sigs ...was to use the MT ribbon with my 2+2s in the 90s...........had a Krell KBX crossover.... I ran them with....sweet sound..
What are the impedance of the Bass drivers in the setup?.............all open in the back?..........
An then with the ribbon in the mix....?
I have two 12 ported subs...if you can call them subes....I use with all my speakers....like a 3way setup... I just run the mans fullrange........crossover the 12s at 40-60hz....................
Been doing some more work with the Stages MT...
Just backet of on the top & bottem bar Screws...
After not being moved for over 20years....just that.. taken some presher off the bars an ribbons.... opened up the top end a lot.....better image hight... an just more better output.....lot fun....
Best sound I ever got out of my buzzzing Duetta Sigs ...was to use the MT ribbon with my 2+2s in the 90s...........had a Krell KBX crossover.... I ran them with....sweet sound..
What are the impedance of the Bass drivers in the setup?.............all open in the back?..........
An then with the ribbon in the mix....?
I have two 12 ported subs...if you can call them subes....I use with all my speakers....like a 3way setup... I just run the mans fullrange........crossover the 12s at 40-60hz....................
Been doing some more work with the Stages MT...
Just backet of on the top & bottem bar Screws...
After not being moved for over 20years....just that.. taken some presher off the bars an ribbons.... opened up the top end a lot.....better image hight... an just more better output.....lot fun....
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Hi Davey,
The project looks very nice. I am interesting how MRT will be attached.
Btw, I found locally a guy is selling Hivi M6N aluminum magnesium midbass. The price for pair is 45 euro, but he gave me an offer, 8 pcs for 155 eur, what I think, is not a bad price, i. e. less than 20 eur per piece. Unfortunately at this moment there are only 4 psc on the stock, but I think they could be a good candidate. I am not sure, whether to go on 4 or 6 pcs per side.
The specs are very similar to your Peerless:
HiVi M6N 6" Aluminum/Magnesium Midbass
nominal diameter 6 inch
power RMS 45 watts
power max 90 watts
response 46 to 8,000 Hz
sensitivity 89dB
Fs 46Hz
Re 6,5 Ohms
Qms 4,69
Qes 0,42
Qts 0,39
Diaphgram mass 13,6 gr
Xmax 4,3mm
There is on this forum a favorable thread about this Hivi M6N in open baffle.
Are your connections, two in parallel and then, 3 in series?
Any measurements should be fine to see.
Good luck and best regards
The project looks very nice. I am interesting how MRT will be attached.
Btw, I found locally a guy is selling Hivi M6N aluminum magnesium midbass. The price for pair is 45 euro, but he gave me an offer, 8 pcs for 155 eur, what I think, is not a bad price, i. e. less than 20 eur per piece. Unfortunately at this moment there are only 4 psc on the stock, but I think they could be a good candidate. I am not sure, whether to go on 4 or 6 pcs per side.
The specs are very similar to your Peerless:
HiVi M6N 6" Aluminum/Magnesium Midbass
nominal diameter 6 inch
power RMS 45 watts
power max 90 watts
response 46 to 8,000 Hz
sensitivity 89dB
Fs 46Hz
Re 6,5 Ohms
Qms 4,69
Qes 0,42
Qts 0,39
Diaphgram mass 13,6 gr
Xmax 4,3mm
There is on this forum a favorable thread about this Hivi M6N in open baffle.
Are your connections, two in parallel and then, 3 in series?
Any measurements should be fine to see.
Good luck and best regards
The MRT will be reattached exactly where it was removed. A 2 ohm resistor in series to raise the impedance to 4.5 ohms. The original passive crossovers will not be used.
I'm going to wait to reattach the MRT until I've taken some ground plane measurements outdoors of the bass panel only.
Also, the cover will fit perfectly back in place over the whole assembly. That will probably be the final step.
Driver pairs are wired in series and then the three pairs wired in parallel. Net impedance a bit less than a single driver and equal voltage to all six drivers.
I suppose those HiVi drivers would be okay for a Stage application. I have no experience with them.
Dave.
I'm going to wait to reattach the MRT until I've taken some ground plane measurements outdoors of the bass panel only.
Also, the cover will fit perfectly back in place over the whole assembly. That will probably be the final step.
Driver pairs are wired in series and then the three pairs wired in parallel. Net impedance a bit less than a single driver and equal voltage to all six drivers.
I suppose those HiVi drivers would be okay for a Stage application. I have no experience with them.
Dave.
About the MT for the Duettas...an all othere Apogees FR ribbons... are monted from the side of the Bass driver.....so thay are in free air like.....All the medal open in the back....this give max output...
The Stages the MT is monted on to the MDF.....this cuts the MT output down.... from the Mass added to the Magnets,metal an feed wire from the MDF.....With the Centaur...thay moved away from monting the 26" MT on the MDF ...an left it open...more are less....got better output an sound...
This is why... after living an working with the Centaur Minors I got the MT to sound better ... than the same MT in the Stages.....
Pulling the Bars off the minors MT an seting there monts up like all the new Graz replament ribbons are with out the Bars...Realy opened up the the sound for the Better....an got far better sound an output than the Stages....
now by just taken some of the pressure off the top an bottem bar screws that hold the Stages MT ribbons....I have got more output an better sound out of the Stages setup..
But the new Graz ribbons for my Stages are the next step...
Also I have found because the Stages are Diff in the way the bass driver medal magnets mont is put in from the outside ...all othere Apogee FR type ribbons Bass drivers are monted from the inside ...this adds more mass to the medal an magnets.....this give less an diff output from the stages.....the diff I hear in the stages bass driver an the Duetta Sig my friend just got re-worket......is the Stages have a more opend an clearer mid ...the Duetta have a darker sound.....
the pic shows the MT mont on the side......
The Stages the MT is monted on to the MDF.....this cuts the MT output down.... from the Mass added to the Magnets,metal an feed wire from the MDF.....With the Centaur...thay moved away from monting the 26" MT on the MDF ...an left it open...more are less....got better output an sound...
This is why... after living an working with the Centaur Minors I got the MT to sound better ... than the same MT in the Stages.....
Pulling the Bars off the minors MT an seting there monts up like all the new Graz replament ribbons are with out the Bars...Realy opened up the the sound for the Better....an got far better sound an output than the Stages....
now by just taken some of the pressure off the top an bottem bar screws that hold the Stages MT ribbons....I have got more output an better sound out of the Stages setup..
But the new Graz ribbons for my Stages are the next step...
Also I have found because the Stages are Diff in the way the bass driver medal magnets mont is put in from the outside ...all othere Apogee FR type ribbons Bass drivers are monted from the inside ...this adds more mass to the medal an magnets.....this give less an diff output from the stages.....the diff I hear in the stages bass driver an the Duetta Sig my friend just got re-worket......is the Stages have a more opend an clearer mid ...the Duetta have a darker sound.....
the pic shows the MT mont on the side......
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