I guess it would depend upon the type of solvent used. I don't think it would be prudent to use something potent like Methyl-Ethyl-Ketone or similar. You would (preferably) not want anything to penetrate the MDF during that process.
The professional installer guys no doubt have a proprietary process which simplifies this, but I'm sure they'd be thrilled not to tell us about it. 🙂
Dave.
Davey, I removed bass panels, the silicone not hard to get off at all, I just use my fingers, rub back and fourth and roll it off 🙂
TYU, you keep saying removing the bars makes a diff?
1-DID YOU take measurement of tension on the ribbons before you removed the bars? If you did I'd like to know how you pulled that off. IF NOT then most likely thier not under the exact same tension as before!!!!
Also are they at the exact same degree angles "all ways" in thier listening postition, we know how much a degree can influence the sound on an Ap.
TYU, you keep saying removing the bars makes a diff?
1-DID YOU take measurement of tension on the ribbons before you removed the bars? If you did I'd like to know how you pulled that off. IF NOT then most likely thier not under the exact same tension as before!!!!
Also are they at the exact same degree angles "all ways" in thier listening postition, we know how much a degree can influence the sound on an Ap.
Foam removal? I use my thumbs as it rolls the grit of the dead foam into a ball over the foams still-functioning glue! Same for the cured caulked fixing silicone. But then the predicament of facing an unproductive process of attempting to work accurately in a space <1mm by meters long for many hours in the hope I could get half a patch job done and not be worse off with my high end speakers never occurs😀
A quick comparison btw - Stages vs all other Apogee panels are different in that they don't have a lower clamp set. They have over clamps (rebate/foam edge), mounted over the bass ribbon and screwed through onto a back board. The under clamp is made from the back board of the Stage and the foam stands proud of the edge with no rebate - a serious flaw imho. These were not made with long life in mind, foam disintegration typically occurred in 10-12 years for the Stage. As the under-foam fails the side tension from the tuning clamp fails as the ribbon bonds to the residual adhesive. Silicon on the tuning side replicates this, locking the free edge in place as per the exposed foam adhesive, preventing the tensioning process. The Stage also differs in that the magnet array is mounted from the back, and in the dire event of a magnet coming loose can be accessed (sort of!) - screwed and glued in place from the back. Removing the grid is a bad idea as the board needs the strength of the grid to hold the tension.
Other planar Apogees have over clamps (rebate/foam edged), under clamps (rebate/foam edged) and those are mounted on the back board. The magnet grid is mounted over the back board next to the under clamps, inaccessible except when the panel is out.
Both designs need both foam edges (over/under) and free side movement to work.
Really - when a panel is 20-30 years old it's overdue time to properly refurbish the speakers with attention to all details of ageing, and the details often overlooked in original manufacture. When your caps dry out in your 1980's Krell you don't use the garden hose to make them wet (!) or replace with fluro light starters do you?
Down here in oz there was a series that had some funny bush repairs on it, one showed a couple of bush dudes stuffing a nailed care tyre with long grass to be able to drive to safety. When in the bush - do what needs to be done and your life depends on it! But this is simply not applicable for high end speaker repair - a compromised "solution" will always be just that.
It is to be expected that for what was the highest of high end speakers back in the 1980/90's there will be some running costs for owning a classic - and with amplifier plus source requirements the cost is not only with the speakers. Few debate that a panel Apogee will perform better with a good high current amplifier than a $100 general store brand! And that a high end turntable will give more realism than a $100 usb tt from ebay! Yet some will fight against a REAL, complete methodical repair procedure that gets the best from speakers, typically costing less than the required ancillary components - these of course accepted as being a requirement!
I can tell in no uncertain terms a properly refurbished Apogee (eg Caliper) cost of about $3-5k will outperform a patched Caliper by a greater margin than a $100:$20,000 amp comparison, assured...
My mission is to get the most from a classic Apogee in a refurbishment, no apologies for that.
And now - an overdue contextual dig, especially for Davey. You sell high end active crossover solutions sold (in theory) to exceed the function of a passive xover. You repair Apogee versions of the same. I doubt you would condone the use of mismatched electronics parts on one or both channels of your xover (or teach to fit such) - and as a person who understands your field would probably have a fair idea of the compromise such inferior substitutions would result in. Yet you attack me for applying my understanding of Apogee's in the same way? For Davey - this will always be about the conflict... 😕
A quick comparison btw - Stages vs all other Apogee panels are different in that they don't have a lower clamp set. They have over clamps (rebate/foam edge), mounted over the bass ribbon and screwed through onto a back board. The under clamp is made from the back board of the Stage and the foam stands proud of the edge with no rebate - a serious flaw imho. These were not made with long life in mind, foam disintegration typically occurred in 10-12 years for the Stage. As the under-foam fails the side tension from the tuning clamp fails as the ribbon bonds to the residual adhesive. Silicon on the tuning side replicates this, locking the free edge in place as per the exposed foam adhesive, preventing the tensioning process. The Stage also differs in that the magnet array is mounted from the back, and in the dire event of a magnet coming loose can be accessed (sort of!) - screwed and glued in place from the back. Removing the grid is a bad idea as the board needs the strength of the grid to hold the tension.
Other planar Apogees have over clamps (rebate/foam edged), under clamps (rebate/foam edged) and those are mounted on the back board. The magnet grid is mounted over the back board next to the under clamps, inaccessible except when the panel is out.
Both designs need both foam edges (over/under) and free side movement to work.
Really - when a panel is 20-30 years old it's overdue time to properly refurbish the speakers with attention to all details of ageing, and the details often overlooked in original manufacture. When your caps dry out in your 1980's Krell you don't use the garden hose to make them wet (!) or replace with fluro light starters do you?
Down here in oz there was a series that had some funny bush repairs on it, one showed a couple of bush dudes stuffing a nailed care tyre with long grass to be able to drive to safety. When in the bush - do what needs to be done and your life depends on it! But this is simply not applicable for high end speaker repair - a compromised "solution" will always be just that.
It is to be expected that for what was the highest of high end speakers back in the 1980/90's there will be some running costs for owning a classic - and with amplifier plus source requirements the cost is not only with the speakers. Few debate that a panel Apogee will perform better with a good high current amplifier than a $100 general store brand! And that a high end turntable will give more realism than a $100 usb tt from ebay! Yet some will fight against a REAL, complete methodical repair procedure that gets the best from speakers, typically costing less than the required ancillary components - these of course accepted as being a requirement!
I can tell in no uncertain terms a properly refurbished Apogee (eg Caliper) cost of about $3-5k will outperform a patched Caliper by a greater margin than a $100:$20,000 amp comparison, assured...
My mission is to get the most from a classic Apogee in a refurbishment, no apologies for that.
And now - an overdue contextual dig, especially for Davey. You sell high end active crossover solutions sold (in theory) to exceed the function of a passive xover. You repair Apogee versions of the same. I doubt you would condone the use of mismatched electronics parts on one or both channels of your xover (or teach to fit such) - and as a person who understands your field would probably have a fair idea of the compromise such inferior substitutions would result in. Yet you attack me for applying my understanding of Apogee's in the same way? For Davey - this will always be about the conflict... 😕
Sounds right Garz...........thanks for your time............good info for me anyway on the stage setup..................I never new..for sure...
I just pulled my Stages out.....Wow...what a sound...
I feel so lucky to have found these speakers back in the 90s .....one of a kind sound ....well for me anyway..............gezzzzz..
Frist thing you hear is the weight...these speakers bring to the sound....
An can be driven with 60 tube watts.....
I just pulled my Stages out.....Wow...what a sound...
I feel so lucky to have found these speakers back in the 90s .....one of a kind sound ....well for me anyway..............gezzzzz..
Frist thing you hear is the weight...these speakers bring to the sound....
An can be driven with 60 tube watts.....
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That's just nonsense Graz. It's a complete apples/oranges comparison, which you're thinking about from an 'audiophile' perspective and not an engineering perspective. I'll tell you what, you leave the technical electrical stuff to me and I won't tell you how to improve the fabrication process for your ribbons. Fair enough?
EVERYBODY here is aware that (excepting for cost) a complete refurbishment with new ribbons is the preferable way to approach all these issues. How much clearer do you think you need to make that? It's intuitively obvious to everybody.
The issue that should be obvious to you......and apparently isn't....is that not everybody can afford to refurbish their Apogee's! However, in the mean time, they would still like to enjoy listening to them without the buzzing. How difficult a concept is that to grasp? My goodness.
The silicone repair is simply an effective way to extend the longevity of these excellent speakers with very minimal $$$ outlay. THAT's good engineering AND good value-added.
For those that don't know, Graz has his own forum.....which I no longer participate in. However, he comes on this forum to rebut and/or argue my statements, but I'M the one seeking out the "conflict." That's rich!! 🙂🙂
Here you go: http://www.apogeeacoustics.com/forum/index.php
Oh, I'm sure Olaf will appreciate his silicone repair idea being compared to a couple of bush dudes in the Australian outback stuffing grass into flat tires. 🙂 (What a silly-*** tale/comparison.)
Cheers,
Dave.
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Why Anyone needs to run Graz off.. the one man still standing saleing Apogee parts.......what dose dav fear......... with His silliness...an BS... that was ran in the dicht years ago......hehe
all this silliness...over an over..give it up.....youll feel a lot better....bad vibes ...not good for the Apogees Diy mods....have fun
all this silliness...over an over..give it up.....youll feel a lot better....bad vibes ...not good for the Apogees Diy mods....have fun
Why is this thread so polarizing? Its quite simple.
You have the means to fix these wonderful speakers, but not the money? Silicone.
You have the money, but not the means to fix? Go to Graz and his installers.
Either way, you live with the end result. Like many others, I was very happy with my siliconed Duetta Sigs, and could have lived with them permanently, but a pair of Scinnies came up and someone else just had to have the Duetta Sigs.
So you see, no mud slinging, condescension, or "your wasting your time" comments are really necessary.
In the end, Apogee speakers offer quite a bit more than just snob appeal.
Tyu - I have seen your good work on Acoustats, and you easily have the means to fix. You of all people should understand. I know you had your doubters on you bias ground and resistor value mods - that obviously did not sway your choice in trying, correct?
You have the means to fix these wonderful speakers, but not the money? Silicone.
You have the money, but not the means to fix? Go to Graz and his installers.
Either way, you live with the end result. Like many others, I was very happy with my siliconed Duetta Sigs, and could have lived with them permanently, but a pair of Scinnies came up and someone else just had to have the Duetta Sigs.
So you see, no mud slinging, condescension, or "your wasting your time" comments are really necessary.
In the end, Apogee speakers offer quite a bit more than just snob appeal.
Tyu - I have seen your good work on Acoustats, and you easily have the means to fix. You of all people should understand. I know you had your doubters on you bias ground and resistor value mods - that obviously did not sway your choice in trying, correct?
Graz joined this forum in 2013 but up until a few days ago had made a grand total of zero contributions to DIYaudio.com. There's a reason why participation has dwindled to essentially zero on his forum, but DIY interest in Apogee issues has increased on this forum. You might think about that a bit. 🙂
John,
You are absolutely spot on with your "You have the means....You have the money....statement." The situation is completely clear.
Cheers,
Dave.
I don't see it being polarising to be honest. There are a couple of entrenched views for some years ago and some interesting cultural differences across at least 3 continents. Or normal for the internet!
The only potential points of disagreement is whether the special goop gets you back to factory new performance and whether a fully restored speaker is better than new. And until we can get all 3 in the same place we won't know.
As there is no restoration path for stages (the subject of this thread) the whole discussion has drifted. However I have learned a lot as I hope have some others.
Graz joined this forum in 2013 but up until a few days ago had made a grand total of zero contributions to DIYaudio.....
I gess your the only one who cares....An I can just see all the silliness you would have posted if he had!....
Any an all info on Apogees... For the few people who care....is welcomed by me....
An for johns point on the fix... nothing new....Most well never do it anyway....an that has nothing to do with putting down anyone....dav just needs to lives in the past.....not good for my Mods ...thay don't like it...hehe....
Yes yes.....post drift.
I gess your the only one who cares....An I can just see all the silliness you would have posted if he had!....
Any an all info on Apogees... For the few people who care....is welcomed by me....
An for johns point on the fix... nothing new....Most well never do it anyway....an that has nothing to do with putting down anyone....dav just needs to lives in the past.....not good for my Mods ...thay don't like it...hehe....
Yes yes.....post drift.
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No, I don't even believe those are points of disagreement...at least not to me. I will stipulate that the silicone will not return the speakers to "factory new performance" and that a "fully restored speaker is most likely better than new."
Graz is simply interested in minimizing DIY-inspired efforts because he doesn't think DIY'ers have the talent and/or parts/equipment to properly work on the speakers. He's partially correct on that, but he misses the premise/position that most Apogee owners are starting from. This aspect of his business model has been clear from early on.
Graz has no endorsed solutions for any issues that don't involve acquiring products/services from he and his installers. And currently has zero solutions for Stage repairs himself. In Graz' mind, you Stage owners are sort of screwed.
Dave.
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Only thing I got from Grazs post....Was the NEW to Me info on the Stages...an how it differs from the others ....how thay were made.... that maybe why I like the sound so much....Less MDF less every thing....less Must be more in this case.....My Stages sound greate
wish other could hear the sound ....with Mods.......Like added a Bass driver Zobel........keep the info coming
wish other could hear the sound ....with Mods.......Like added a Bass driver Zobel........keep the info coming
Nope. Absolutely not. 🙂
The silicone repair is a proven option, so I've decided to put my money where my mouth is and retrofit a conventional driver array into the speaker. Even though I'm working with Duetta's, the concept is perfectly viable for Stage's (or others) and is in keeping with the spirit of the original query of this thread.
Since Stage owners with broken woofer ribbons are out in the cold, this will be a possible option for DIY-inspired folks to get their speakers back on the air.....albeit in a hybrid configuration.
Also, I'm going to implement the setup so it can be completely removed and the appropriate pieces reinstalled to allow a full woofer ribbon refurbishment at some later date.
My MRT drivers are still in fine shape since I was very careful with power amplifier on/off transients and DC-offset issues back when I was using the speakers in bi-amp configuration.
I have some suitable drivers on the way from Madisound.
Cheers,
Dave.
Many thoughtful posts here. I think we should not forget the DIY aspect. It may mean different things to different people. Personally, nothing beats the feeling of fixing something yourself, be it speaker, car, house etc. and seeing/hearing the end result-doesn't have to be as good as done by an outsourced professional, but the satisfaction is way better.
I look forward to seeing Dave's project unfold.
The only way I would rip my bass panels out is if they were truly destroyed.
I consider myself lucky that 85% of my very minor buzz issue is coming from the front cover. There is definitely a silicone fix in my near future as I would like to do it before the foam completely disappears. Then later down the road a proper refurb.
I have also noticed that my magnets are pretty well aligned top and bottom but are a little off in the middle and only the Left one. The Right speaker is pretty bang on from just a visual inspection with a very bright light. I wish I could go back to not knowing that.
The only way I would rip my bass panels out is if they were truly destroyed.
I consider myself lucky that 85% of my very minor buzz issue is coming from the front cover. There is definitely a silicone fix in my near future as I would like to do it before the foam completely disappears. Then later down the road a proper refurb.
I have also noticed that my magnets are pretty well aligned top and bottom but are a little off in the middle and only the Left one. The Right speaker is pretty bang on from just a visual inspection with a very bright light. I wish I could go back to not knowing that.
Been playing with Edge in open baffle mode and trying to simulate a stage. Not a lot of luck in finding an accurate enough drawing so a bit of guesswork, but looks like a pair of 10" units will fit in there. Reason for looking at a pair is that it does flatten the response off IN THE SIM. This differs from the usual approach to OB espoused by Linkwitz where you flatten the peak in response and then boost the bass. My current thought is that you could use the peak to your advantage due to the crossover at 750Hz.
The other reason for a pair is you can see the bass falls off below 150Hz so either a lot of boost is needed or a handover to a sub early on.
But without cutting a hole in some foamboard and measuring its all conjecture! OB is one of the more empirical areas of the speaker art still...
The other reason for a pair is you can see the bass falls off below 150Hz so either a lot of boost is needed or a handover to a sub early on.
But without cutting a hole in some foamboard and measuring its all conjecture! OB is one of the more empirical areas of the speaker art still...
Attachments
Be nice if the stage was like the rest of the fulrange Aps, could remove the MT section and build a nice diapole
The only way I would rip my bass panels out is if they were truly destroyed.
That's a fact!
As for the driver for the Stage...10"may be right.... my fear..is the movement feed back into the frame.... an may have more buzzzzes than to stock ribbon driver.....If you don't go You wont know.........Hehe...try to have fun doing what ever.................
Thinking About how these Apogee bass panels were made ..I was told by Jason that if I pull the bars off the top an bottem of the Stages Bass drivers...an pulled the screws out of the spring tuning board....an moved the
tuning board... I may hear the sound of the glue from the foum....freeing the foil...an it would help the bass sound better...............this was in the 90s
........I have done this to ever pr..............
That's a fact!
As for the driver for the Stage...10"may be right.... my fear..is the movement feed back into the frame.... an may have more buzzzzes than to stock ribbon driver.....If you don't go You wont know.........Hehe...try to have fun doing what ever.................
Thinking About how these Apogee bass panels were made ..I was told by Jason that if I pull the bars off the top an bottem of the Stages Bass drivers...an pulled the screws out of the spring tuning board....an moved the
tuning board... I may hear the sound of the glue from the foum....freeing the foil...an it would help the bass sound better...............this was in the 90s
........I have done this to ever pr..............
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