NO...Delta..Never seen those.....
if there aluminum on both sides yours are the Vary frist ones on Mylar... I gess 3 runs in front... 3in back....
.All Mine are Kapton-backed ribbon ...with aluminum only on the fornt... 6 runs......
Always wonet to hear the dubbel sided ones...to see if the image was higher...the dubbel side ones on mylar had to give more out?...an a diff image..!
.Thay changed becase the mylar could get hot an you could get sage are brake..the kapton can take the heat...The ribbon in the pic looks like what was used in the Deutta....?...an looks yello..like Kapton? maybe there 3 diff ribbons used in the Stage?..gofig
...The North Creek tweeter high-pass network topology and component values largely unchanged. I tried a few other topologies and varied the high pass Q, but in the end I kept returning to a Cascade Bypassed 67.1uF/1.5mH second order high pass. There are two reasons for this: 1) it is my feeling the current network pushes the tweeter ribbon as low as it will go while still remaining an effective transducer; 2) the failure level is so low that it may be the most dependable driver in history.
Vary cool thanks for the pic....
if there aluminum on both sides yours are the Vary frist ones on Mylar... I gess 3 runs in front... 3in back....
.All Mine are Kapton-backed ribbon ...with aluminum only on the fornt... 6 runs......
Always wonet to hear the dubbel sided ones...to see if the image was higher...the dubbel side ones on mylar had to give more out?...an a diff image..!
.Thay changed becase the mylar could get hot an you could get sage are brake..the kapton can take the heat...The ribbon in the pic looks like what was used in the Deutta....?...an looks yello..like Kapton? maybe there 3 diff ribbons used in the Stage?..gofig
...The North Creek tweeter high-pass network topology and component values largely unchanged. I tried a few other topologies and varied the high pass Q, but in the end I kept returning to a Cascade Bypassed 67.1uF/1.5mH second order high pass. There are two reasons for this: 1) it is my feeling the current network pushes the tweeter ribbon as low as it will go while still remaining an effective transducer; 2) the failure level is so low that it may be the most dependable driver in history.
Vary cool thanks for the pic....
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Mine are 4 trace sinsudol, kapton backed, I have played these very loud and they don't move at all, was thinking about hooking it direct to amp and running active to see how low it can handle.
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As for running the MT as low as you can.....you well lose highs.....from my stand point...I wish my Stages
Had the topend of the minors....I gess that gets to your point of sawing off the mdf behind of the Stages MT.....gess I have thought of this minny time...
looks like you right on time in your thinking Delta..
4 runs was what I ment........yours may have no real playing time on them...or that were babyed.....eather way it all good...
Maybe your MT ribbon type can handel the heat better.....who knows...
I gess the MT 6 runs like all my Stages an Minors.... small runs up an down dose not handel the heat as well...
Well we ever know??........I say know....
Most have move away from these old Apogees......I gess thay think were nuts... to have so much say about them...an to still be using a speaker that cant be replacet an can die at any min...
I have tride to get away from all Apogees.....but when I see them being gave a way for so little $$....I just cant.....that life I gess....
By the way none of my Apogees have ever stop working!.... I did get replacement MT ribbon for my frist Stages in the early 90 from Jason.... but that was my falt...I was trying to upgread the wire that runs up an down on the sides of the MT ribbons...an had no aluminum soder ....an when I got the MT with the soder that came with them.... I fix the MT ribbons an never even put the new MT in...hehe
There was NO cost Stages were still under ...warranty.....what 25 years a go....
by the way all Stages have the date made....on the top bar on the bass panels?
I see in your pic....90...my frist pr were 90s also but had the 6 run MT.......yours look dame good for a 25 year old pr.....good job ...thanks for open them up...you let some of the 1990 air out...hehe
Had the topend of the minors....I gess that gets to your point of sawing off the mdf behind of the Stages MT.....gess I have thought of this minny time...
looks like you right on time in your thinking Delta..
4 runs was what I ment........yours may have no real playing time on them...or that were babyed.....eather way it all good...
Maybe your MT ribbon type can handel the heat better.....who knows...
I gess the MT 6 runs like all my Stages an Minors.... small runs up an down dose not handel the heat as well...
Well we ever know??........I say know....
Most have move away from these old Apogees......I gess thay think were nuts... to have so much say about them...an to still be using a speaker that cant be replacet an can die at any min...
I have tride to get away from all Apogees.....but when I see them being gave a way for so little $$....I just cant.....that life I gess....
By the way none of my Apogees have ever stop working!.... I did get replacement MT ribbon for my frist Stages in the early 90 from Jason.... but that was my falt...I was trying to upgread the wire that runs up an down on the sides of the MT ribbons...an had no aluminum soder ....an when I got the MT with the soder that came with them.... I fix the MT ribbons an never even put the new MT in...hehe
There was NO cost Stages were still under ...warranty.....what 25 years a go....
by the way all Stages have the date made....on the top bar on the bass panels?
I see in your pic....90...my frist pr were 90s also but had the 6 run MT.......yours look dame good for a 25 year old pr.....good job ...thanks for open them up...you let some of the 1990 air out...hehe
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Delta....I had forgot...if the Switch in the back of the Stages is set on High ...an not Normal.....the Stages MT moves Vary little an dose not get hot,even when played vary loud.....
Till I got my lates pr of Stages... I have Never used the high seting.....but after getting the minors an hearing such a big an better topend I put the crossover switch to high...
For years I have read on the Apogee fourm...how bad the Apogee switchs sounded.....if your are going to leave the switchs set to high...go in to the crossover an with a wire bypass the switch!....then set the switch to normal....an then the switch is out of the path....this dose give a better sweeter sound out of the MT..............
What the switch dose in the High seting is bypass the trap....the 10mf cap an res.an small coil....see pic.....then it leves only the 70mf in the path set at a high crossover point...the trap drops the crossover point even lower....there for get more movement an much hoter MT...........
In the Minors the switchs are only on the bass driver...
But in the Centaur the switch is in the bass an MT..
This bypass Switch make a Big diff in the Sound....like diff caps an coils can....ribbons well not forgive like other speakers......
Soon I well be adding a nother cap in parallel with the 70mf .....I well start with 10mf to lower the crossover point to see what happens with the sound an the movement....the traps cap is in series
Till I got my lates pr of Stages... I have Never used the high seting.....but after getting the minors an hearing such a big an better topend I put the crossover switch to high...
For years I have read on the Apogee fourm...how bad the Apogee switchs sounded.....if your are going to leave the switchs set to high...go in to the crossover an with a wire bypass the switch!....then set the switch to normal....an then the switch is out of the path....this dose give a better sweeter sound out of the MT..............
What the switch dose in the High seting is bypass the trap....the 10mf cap an res.an small coil....see pic.....then it leves only the 70mf in the path set at a high crossover point...the trap drops the crossover point even lower....there for get more movement an much hoter MT...........
In the Minors the switchs are only on the bass driver...
But in the Centaur the switch is in the bass an MT..
This bypass Switch make a Big diff in the Sound....like diff caps an coils can....ribbons well not forgive like other speakers......
Soon I well be adding a nother cap in parallel with the 70mf .....I well start with 10mf to lower the crossover point to see what happens with the sound an the movement....the traps cap is in series
Attachments
![stage_crossover[1].jpg](/community/data/attachments/434/434030-a0d727374c499bb17e41d0daa532bded.jpg?hash=oNcnN0xJm7)
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Assuming that schematic is correct, the notch filter will have no effect on the crossover point or movement of the Stage MT driver. It's tuned to a frequency much higher than the high-pass filter.
Once again, this might be a case where the published schematic is in error. I've mentioned it previously, but I want to caution everybody again about the accuracy of Apogee schematics. They're all suspect.....in my opinion.....and we can't make any conclusions from them.
Dave.
Once again, this might be a case where the published schematic is in error. I've mentioned it previously, but I want to caution everybody again about the accuracy of Apogee schematics. They're all suspect.....in my opinion.....and we can't make any conclusions from them.
Dave.
Attachments
Also, I'm not sure where this assertion of the driver getting hotter is coming from. Can you elaborate? Did you confirm that with an IR thermometer? Or some other measurement?
Since the Stage high-pass filter is unchanged with position of the notch filter, I have a hard time believing the driver would run "hotter" with the same low-frequency information present.
And, if the high-pass filter is unchanged, I also have a hard time believing there would be a change in visible movement of the driver.
If your assertion is that the crossover schematic is incorrect, please update it for us.
Dave.
Since the Stage high-pass filter is unchanged with position of the notch filter, I have a hard time believing the driver would run "hotter" with the same low-frequency information present.
And, if the high-pass filter is unchanged, I also have a hard time believing there would be a change in visible movement of the driver.
If your assertion is that the crossover schematic is incorrect, please update it for us.
Dave.
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As part of my research found this in the 1992 stereophile review of the centaur minor "Unlike previous designs, the ribbon
is not supported at points along its length.
This technique of removing diffraction-causing
braces was pioneered during conceptual development
of Apogee's $65,000 Grand loudspeaker."
Now unless anyone has a line to Jason B or anyone else who was actually there, this is not gospel, but something to consider. The early ribbon a few posts up certainly has those braces. The suspension part seems to be of a similar vintage (and the instructions mention centaur but not minor). Curious. You would have thought if one 26" unit needed it they would all need it.
More research needed.
is not supported at points along its length.
This technique of removing diffraction-causing
braces was pioneered during conceptual development
of Apogee's $65,000 Grand loudspeaker."
Now unless anyone has a line to Jason B or anyone else who was actually there, this is not gospel, but something to consider. The early ribbon a few posts up certainly has those braces. The suspension part seems to be of a similar vintage (and the instructions mention centaur but not minor). Curious. You would have thought if one 26" unit needed it they would all need it.
More research needed.
The notch is right frequency wise compared to my minor schematic and what is published on the north creek website. Although for the minor its only 1-2dB. There is definately a rising response in that area that needs correcting for.
Yep, we can make the assumption the notch filter values are correct and there is indeed a rising response that needs attention.
However, tyu's assertions that the driver moves more and gets "hotter" when the notch filter is engaged make no sense to me. I see no evidence in the relative electrical responses to support that claim. Even his assertion itself seems counter-intuitive to me since I would suspect if there is any greater movement of the driver or "hotness" it would manifest with the switch in the closed position and not the normal position.
Oh well.
Dave.
Maybe he's getting a bit of dc from the amp, that would make them move and get hot, just a thought
Davey, what xo freq should I start at running the stage active bi-amp?
Al
Davey, what xo freq should I start at running the stage active bi-amp?
Al
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Only thought I had was that maybe the ribbon has a resonance around there. Have certainly read that in the dim past. But the notch (or trap as I think Apogee call it) is way too low Q for that.
Al,
Yeah, that could be......but engaging or disengaging the notch filter wouldn't make any difference to that condition. As usual with his posts, I find myself puzzled and with more questions than answers. 🙂
For the Stage, my suggestion is the same as it is with all Apogee speakers......start with the stock curves and experiment from there. In the case of the Stage, that's 500Hz with LR2 slopes and make sure the relative polarities are understood.
Bill,
The ribbon itself wouldn't have nearly enough resonance and/or impedance change to cause that kind of condition.
Cheers,
Dave.
Bill....it eze to see in the pic of the MT... that the centaur crossover is vary close to the Stages..So i think thats why the Centaur was given the Suspensions peaces .....the minor crossover is much higher.....
70mf in the Stage an Cenaur...
30mf in the minor.....all most no movement....
The words of George Short ....that I have NO reason NOT to trust...more than anyone here that's never even owen a pr of Stages...!
Less some noitall...blowhard...hehe..An yes I gess some well say I put this pic of the crossover togather myself all roung so you would think it right....Bal..Bal..Bal...seen it all befoe....the need to be right....over rides the truth...even when it in your face...good luck with that...
"tweeter high-pass network topology and component values largely unchanged. I tried a few other topologies and varied the high pass Q, but in the end I kept returning to a Cascade Bypassed 67.1uF/1.5mH second order high pass. There are two reasons for this: 1) it is my feeling the current network pushes the tweeter ribbon as low as it will go while still remaining an effective transducer; 2) the failure level is so low that it may be the most dependable driver in history. The Cascade Bypass is accomplished with a group of Zen and Crescendo polypropylene capacitors. The 1.5mH inductor is 12 AWG.
I changed the trap quite a bit, as I felt it was still a bit too bright and also too narrow"
Delta
as far as Dc sure some.... but 5 pr driven with highend amps over 25 years of owen Satges
Maybe ...but there was always movement from day one....Hehe...gofig
70mf in the Stage an Cenaur...
30mf in the minor.....all most no movement....
The words of George Short ....that I have NO reason NOT to trust...more than anyone here that's never even owen a pr of Stages...!
Less some noitall...blowhard...hehe..An yes I gess some well say I put this pic of the crossover togather myself all roung so you would think it right....Bal..Bal..Bal...seen it all befoe....the need to be right....over rides the truth...even when it in your face...good luck with that...
"tweeter high-pass network topology and component values largely unchanged. I tried a few other topologies and varied the high pass Q, but in the end I kept returning to a Cascade Bypassed 67.1uF/1.5mH second order high pass. There are two reasons for this: 1) it is my feeling the current network pushes the tweeter ribbon as low as it will go while still remaining an effective transducer; 2) the failure level is so low that it may be the most dependable driver in history. The Cascade Bypass is accomplished with a group of Zen and Crescendo polypropylene capacitors. The 1.5mH inductor is 12 AWG.
I changed the trap quite a bit, as I felt it was still a bit too bright and also too narrow"
Delta
as far as Dc sure some.... but 5 pr driven with highend amps over 25 years of owen Satges
Maybe ...but there was always movement from day one....Hehe...gofig
Attachments
![2gucsc1[1].jpg](/community/data/attachments/434/434147-d9e1d90c5c15625587f5eab8358b47a7.jpg?hash=2eHZDFwVYl)
![centaur_xo_zps84ad8d6f[1].jpg](/community/data/attachments/408/408987-eda184c52913e2c9760141067e8e8f79.jpg?hash=7aGExSkT4s)
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Your contention was that engaging/disengaging the Stage trap filter caused a movement and heat change to the MT transducer. I didn't see any response or elaboration to that question.
Regarding the Centaur crossover drawing: It's clearly wrong. You've either drawn it incorrectly or misinterpreted the layout. Hint: Note the position of the two inductors in the high-pass network and think about the load that places on the amplifier. That's where your mistake is.
Cheers,
Dave.
Regarding the Centaur crossover drawing: It's clearly wrong. You've either drawn it incorrectly or misinterpreted the layout. Hint: Note the position of the two inductors in the high-pass network and think about the load that places on the amplifier. That's where your mistake is.
Cheers,
Dave.
Dav..... do you do any thinking... befour you just troll buy....the i-phone is kill you trolling playground.... to bad for you
Delta.....Sorry i cant give more info but there just a fue of us Stage ...Apogee [owners] doing anything diff...an you just open yours up yesterday...hehe...
see what i mean...have fun
But Who in there right mind .....would ask a man for advice that cant even take his own.....Hehe...good luck.....
Dav...google could be your friend...if you... did not alredy noitall.....good luck
Apogee Acoustics • View topic - New Centaur Minor owner
not my art work...hehe
Delta.....Sorry i cant give more info but there just a fue of us Stage ...Apogee [owners] doing anything diff...an you just open yours up yesterday...hehe...
see what i mean...have fun
But Who in there right mind .....would ask a man for advice that cant even take his own.....Hehe...good luck.....
Dav...google could be your friend...if you... did not alredy noitall.....good luck
Apogee Acoustics • View topic - New Centaur Minor owner
not my art work...hehe
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That Centaur Minor thread on the new forum just regurgitates the old schematic drawing. Unfortunately, it looks like the old Straightwire forum is no longer available to search, but for those Apogee forum old-timers you'll remember I noticed the problem with that schematic many many years ago. It's been at least ten years ago to my recollection.
Al,
Welcome to the "noitall" club. You're in good company. 🙂
Hilarious.
Dave.
Al,
Welcome to the "noitall" club. You're in good company. 🙂
Hilarious.
Dave.
Davey, to get into the old straightwire forum I use google search and look for an old thread of mine, once in you can move about 🙂
Wow he's got it locked right down, got into thread , but go no further. What a shame 🙂 , A lot of good info by yourself, blakley ,few, pur, and others and not to forget muralman 🙂 Thats robbery of forum inteligence.
Al
Wow he's got it locked right down, got into thread , but go no further. What a shame 🙂 , A lot of good info by yourself, blakley ,few, pur, and others and not to forget muralman 🙂 Thats robbery of forum inteligence.
Al
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Al,
I found it! 2002! It's been over fourteen years ago. 🙂 Ha!
help me for a doubt in a centaur crossover - AudioWorld's StraightWire Forums
Dave.
I found it! 2002! It's been over fourteen years ago. 🙂 Ha!
help me for a doubt in a centaur crossover - AudioWorld's StraightWire Forums
Dave.
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