Thank dog for the uFonken... i started packing up your solid cedar uFonkenSET today.
dave
🙂
You know, I might love big HE woofers & compression drivers, but I don't feel short changed either with the little 'uns. What they do well, they do very well, & they're great little nearfield monitors. Listening to them now actually. Russ Barenberg, When at Last.
You know, I might love big HE woofers & compression drivers, but I don't feel short changed either with the little 'uns. What they do well, they do very well, & they're great little nearfield monitors. Listening to them now actually. Russ Barenberg, When at Last.
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on the issue of Audio Nirvana specs, my pair of stamped frame AN Super 8 are pretty good with Qt ~0.25
by~17.75KHz, dead-on-axis, AN8's output exceeds that of several of my helper tweeters including Selenium's ST-324 and exceeds BOFU by over 25dB at that frequency and perspective.
fwiw I like FE206EN's strong midrange when used in a Karlson - AN8 has more on the top.
here's a recent real BOFU vs AN Super 8 on-axis in-room in a Druid style pipe
here's AN Super 8 on-axis in-room vs FE206EN in the same pipe
by~17.75KHz, dead-on-axis, AN8's output exceeds that of several of my helper tweeters including Selenium's ST-324 and exceeds BOFU by over 25dB at that frequency and perspective.
fwiw I like FE206EN's strong midrange when used in a Karlson - AN8 has more on the top.
here's a recent real BOFU vs AN Super 8 on-axis in-room in a Druid style pipe
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
here's AN Super 8 on-axis in-room vs FE206EN in the same pipe
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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Perhaps I wasn't clear. Based on my measured T/S for the AN10 Super, the 2.8 cab size is ok, but the vent is messed up. You can also see that David isn't really trying to optimize for the driver since his port recommendations are a 6 in dia "big port" or 2 3" dia ports. These are clearly not equivalent. David is also adament about no "tube" for these ports.
he's probably trying to obtain some semblance of balance - when I mounted my (quite a bit off-spec) AN Super 10 in a 70 liter reflex tuned to around 41Hz, cone control became chaotic/poor - it does much better in a Karlson where some useful work can be obtained. There's no use in a lot of instances to have a small signal graph which goes low when the system is incapable of any useful dynamics. A graph won't show dynamic capability and sometimes its best just to observe the cone behavior with real demanding music sources.
compare the on-axis response of AN Super 10 stamped frame in reflex vs a Large Advent in the same spot - from this perspective AN10 is quite a bit "brighter"
compare the on-axis response of AN Super 10 stamped frame in reflex vs a Large Advent in the same spot - from this perspective AN10 is quite a bit "brighter"
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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Sounds favourite. Well, sounds like that was the objective anyway. Possibly. IIRC, many of these boxes predate the existence of the AN drive units.
thank you very much freddi for these posts. the fostex driver looks quite good side by side with the AN. is the fostex phase plug modified or the stock driver?
i'm still not convinced i'm going to like a rising response. the pioneer is probably closer to what i'd normally listen at. have you got any off axis measurements?
thanks again.
- stock FE206EN - great Karlson driver - kills my muddy Klipschorns on drums😀 - good vocals - no off axis - I've not felt well - to do it outside means probably move a pc and amp towards another part of the house to string wires out a window. In Karlson application at driver is tilted up typically 25-30 degrees then sliced and influenced by the tapered slot. I could mark a piece of paper and rotate a speaker indoors - then we'd probably see about what will happen - how many degrees seems fair for a fullrange?
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You can also see that David isn't really trying to optimize for the driver since his port recommendations are a 6 in dia "big port" or 2 3" dia ports. These are clearly not equivalent.
When I asked Dicks about which size to use for the 2.8 Ambience (with AN Super 8), he indicated the twin 3-inch ports were preferred.
I have actually found a pretty similar response curve in my cabinets, which follow the 2.8 plans exactly. There is a little peakiness in the mid-treble that I took quite a while to get equalized out. The bass is decent, not great. Where they excel is from about 600 Hz to say, 8K Hz, especially with stringed instruments.
When I asked Dicks about which size to use for the 2.8 Ambience (with AN Super 8), he indicated the twin 3-inch ports were preferred.
I have actually found a pretty similar response curve in my cabinets, which follow the 2.8 plans exactly. There is a little peakiness in the mid-treble that I took quite a while to get equalized out. The bass is decent, not great. Where they excel is from about 600 Hz to say, 8K Hz, especially with stringed instruments.
there's not a lot of rear chamber volume in my "xk8" cabinet - bass is good with AN8 and lacks the "hit" ramp-up of of some K - its an empirical muck and measure process to find optimal slot height for this particular Karlson coupler - I think a shorter height from the getgo would be fine.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I'm sure this has been covered elsewhere but I don't understand a full range in a karlson. Seems like putting the driver behind the slots would cause major diffraction issues. Not trying to open a can-o-worms, just trying to understand.
if the mids and highs are balanced (when in the coupler) then they can sound good, lively and better than direct radiator. A weak and muddy speaker would not sound so good. My fullrange experience in Karlson is very limited - AN Super 8, FE206EN, AN Super 10, W8-1772, BetsyK, Panasonic "metal", 12LTA plus some vintage low end 8s and things like alnico SP12. At some point a good coaxial 10 or 12 may "outperform" a good fullrange. Moving mass should be low although I've one 12" coaxial with 51g mms with a 109oz magnet slug which is ok. There's no limitations to the highs in a regular Karlson. The klam-projector variety where the driver is typically buried much deeper can use adjustment (- with coax - just run the horn hotter) as there's much less direct sound.
You call that very limited? The only karlson I've ever heard was used as a sub with an Altec 416-8a where it worked very well. I want to try some large fr drivers to use in my shop while I scroll saw, so not critical listening but want something dynamic for big band and orchestra. AN super 10 in a karlson might be a candidate. Wish I could hear some though.
AN10 in a 70 liter reflex tuned 41Hz was kinda funky - weak bass, peaky midrange - extended highs - LR network probably would help as would higher box tuning - - parameters were off with fs ~50 and qts around 0.42 - a friend used to regular multi-way speakers made a gesture suggesting to toss it out the window - but he probably would do that with many FR.
Carl's estimate of Karlson rear chamber Vbr=(Vas*qts*fs)/50 would be a starting point for a new AN10 coupler (and likely would help a 12LTA coupler vs the little k12)
when I mounted AN10 into a Karlson X15 copy, there was more useful work than with a reflex and some real impact - that has around 2.2 cubic feet internal volume back chamber and around 1 cubic foot up front. It might sound better without the curved reflector - make it more like a Karlsonette and use a decent size vent as some mids come from the backwave.
you can get an idea of X15 size vs K15 - that's AN10 mounted in the X15 copy -
AN10 sounds good in K15 - you might want to play with the vent (stock 32-40 sq.in as starting point) and perhaps lowpass gap area. It looks out of place to run a 10 in K15 but was done back in their day. Its a mellow but pretty sound on a number of genre and vocal types ranging from hiphop to opera to country - a smaller coupler could be practical with some cost in LF extension.
(imageshack lost my pic of AN10 in K15)
416 is a great K15 woofer either running standard tuning or John Tucker's Exemplar setup.
AN10 parameters
for a really little K, Faital's 4FE30 sounds really good - but its horrifically expensive
12LTA is rather gutless - but might come alive in K15 - ? Leland has a few over at his website cheap. - do you have anything to try in your K15?
Carl's estimate of Karlson rear chamber Vbr=(Vas*qts*fs)/50 would be a starting point for a new AN10 coupler (and likely would help a 12LTA coupler vs the little k12)
when I mounted AN10 into a Karlson X15 copy, there was more useful work than with a reflex and some real impact - that has around 2.2 cubic feet internal volume back chamber and around 1 cubic foot up front. It might sound better without the curved reflector - make it more like a Karlsonette and use a decent size vent as some mids come from the backwave.
you can get an idea of X15 size vs K15 - that's AN10 mounted in the X15 copy -
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
AN10 sounds good in K15 - you might want to play with the vent (stock 32-40 sq.in as starting point) and perhaps lowpass gap area. It looks out of place to run a 10 in K15 but was done back in their day. Its a mellow but pretty sound on a number of genre and vocal types ranging from hiphop to opera to country - a smaller coupler could be practical with some cost in LF extension.
(imageshack lost my pic of AN10 in K15)
416 is a great K15 woofer either running standard tuning or John Tucker's Exemplar setup.
AN10 parameters
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
for a really little K, Faital's 4FE30 sounds really good - but its horrifically expensive
12LTA is rather gutless - but might come alive in K15 - ? Leland has a few over at his website cheap. - do you have anything to try in your K15?
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Thanks! John Tucker's first build was the karlson I heard. He, Jeff Markwart, and I worked together at JSC back in the 90's. Great guys that went from noobs to gurus in about a year.
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That sounds like a darn good idea. Trouble is, if I remember correctly, that really nice mid-hi tractrix that Ra7 has was hand made by him and his girlfriend when they were given access to John Inslow's special mould - for the rest of us it doesn't look like an easy DIY option. Anybody care to recommend a more DIY'able mid-high FLH ?
ooops, that was entirely off-topic.
Well, as for AN drivers - if I wasn't cursed with ears that are super-sensitive to cone-break up I'd be most tempted, but I am losing confidence in the likelihood that I will enjoy a single FR driver over the long-haul after finding the FE127 more or less simply intolerable and now I'm having some doubts about the EL-70 that require investigation (perhaps the P10 treatment?).
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i'm starting to think this is why i'm struggling to find something i like. granted i've only had a handful of DIY full rangers from local audio clubs to listen to.
my main problem is i can also hear when 3 or 4 way systems crossover, not so much a blip or dip in SPL but a shift in source position. if a note from a string resonates across a wide frequency range then i get the disorientating feeling that the sound its self is wobbling up and down. took me until recently to realise this was actually what i was hearing, i had for the longest time thought it was just the drivers being terrible.
i'm thinking some kind of 3 way type system with a woofer(s) up to say 150-300hz, a bigger full range covering up to 7-8khz then cross over to a tweeter for everything above that, (hopefully) avoiding the worst of the breakup. that way most of the sound i can position the easiest should be coming from a single source.
i want the big sound image and most importantly have a fairly large space to fill, so the little 4 inchers are out the question for the full-range, they just don't have enough presence for me, unless someone can present a horn type set-up that makes them 'bigger'. so i'm left trying to find something in the region of 8-12 inches for the full range that still keeps the level of detail reasonably high.
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