What about Empire tables?
I bought an Empire 208 a while ago, and used the guts to make a new table.
They are not as sought after as the more famous Garrards and Lencos, so I think you can find them for better prices.
Randy
I bought an Empire 208 a while ago, and used the guts to make a new table.
They are not as sought after as the more famous Garrards and Lencos, so I think you can find them for better prices.
Randy
is that a Dual 1214 that you are working on?
And I see what you mean in the Lab60....motor is practically 3" wide.
It makes me wonder how big the motor is in the Garrard 301/401 when people say that they are so massive and that one in the lab60 is by no means small for such an application.
I have a few people I know keeping an eye out for some old turntables for me and to let me know when they see garrard, lenco, and thorens. I am also now going to tell them to let me know when they see Dual 12xx and Miracord tables.
I know you didn't have Miracord in the "BIG" list that you had above but they look like they are built solidly and could still be fun to toy with.
And I see what you mean in the Lab60....motor is practically 3" wide.
It makes me wonder how big the motor is in the Garrard 301/401 when people say that they are so massive and that one in the lab60 is by no means small for such an application.
I have a few people I know keeping an eye out for some old turntables for me and to let me know when they see garrard, lenco, and thorens. I am also now going to tell them to let me know when they see Dual 12xx and Miracord tables.
I know you didn't have Miracord in the "BIG" list that you had above but they look like they are built solidly and could still be fun to toy with.
of Empires...
There was a reference Empire turntable made some time ago by Atmashere. They called it an "enhanced" Empire 208. There are certain tables that I have always coveted, and the Empires are in that group. Love to see some photos of it.
One thing that I am looking at doing is developing a belt drive to idler drive "conversion" kit. Take a Rega and do a conversion...or whatever belt drive table you have...
There was a reference Empire turntable made some time ago by Atmashere. They called it an "enhanced" Empire 208. There are certain tables that I have always coveted, and the Empires are in that group. Love to see some photos of it.
One thing that I am looking at doing is developing a belt drive to idler drive "conversion" kit. Take a Rega and do a conversion...or whatever belt drive table you have...
What's so good about idler? More side forces than a belt, as the belt forces can be balanced on opposed sides of the plinth. I guess it might be steady (low flutter) and not susceptible to belt stretch oscillation. But I still want a direct-drive that just keeps on running...
from what I gather from everything I have read it is the fact that idlers have better torque than belts and direct drives. Therefore, they dont suffer from the drag from the tonearm like other designs.
Here's an old pic of my "Empire". I made a corian plinth for it, so it doesn't look like an Empire anymore.
Randy
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I don't know but I have 2 (a 1219 and a 1229) and I love the sound. I also have a belt (1246) and a DD (721) and I won't trade the 1219 for nothing in the world. I've had Pioneer's and Denon's which are both lovely machines but once The Sound Idea, the DUAL house here in S.A. redone my 1219 that was the end for me and it's my daily deck.
No side force on a Lenco - the idler make contact with the underside of the platter not the rim. May be that's one of the reasons Lencos sound better (he said only slightly biased 😉 )
Karl
all that talk about tables... I had a chance to listen and compare (on basic Rega arms) Reference Benz cartridge ($2-$3 k)to my budget gems and there is a WORLD of difference. No fun ;0). You gotta treat all those "giant killer ,idler , DD wonders threads with a smile.
is that a Dual 1214? and comments to Kal, phivates, and cyclecamper (and others)
Jean Nantais (of Lenco fame) started out with a modified Miracord (a 10H? or maybe a 20H? I can't remember what he said in an email). The Dual that I have is a 1216. Not sure, but I suspect the only difference s are minor between it and a 1214 (Dual experts please wade in).
Kal Rubinson: as in THE Kal Rubinson? Perhaps funny that in the day idler to belt drive conversions occurred. I still think that a belt to idler conversion can make sense, but maybe "new construction" may be better. Idler to belt may be easier as large, "torquey" motors were the norm in the idlers compared to the belt drives. Of course now-a-days multiple motors/idlers could be used or replacement high torque motors fitted, and larger mass platters. I happen to have a very nice, very quiet, large AC induction motor I am setting up to make a new idler turntable. This motor could be used in a retro-fit of a belt drive to an idler drive as well, as long as a suitable mounting scheme can be accomplished, and assuming it would fit (I've seen automotive alternators smaller than this motor)
cyclecamper: I am not "dissing" DD here, or BD drive either. I am just stating that it seems that there has been the resurgence of interest in idlers over the last few years, and if one wants to explore the possibility, there are still some examples of idlers out there that are still affordable. I have a few DD tables as well: a Yamaha P750, a Kencraft GX870 (Kenwood/Trio), and Dual 721.
Someplace I read Ken Kessler (of Stereophile, TNT Audio, and HiFi News), and Art Dudley(Stereophile) have adopted idlers as their references. In fact KK has had an idler as a reference for the better part of a decade or longer.
randytsuch: I need to find your pix...
ORNJ: The increased torque is the whole point as far as I am concerned, and assists in the conservation of inertia. This can be accomplished a few ways:
phivates: ...er, how about interpretation? The argument about one being absolutely better than the other (in terms of drive method) are not really that valid. I cannot stae this enough: there are very good (and very good sounding) examples of each drive type out there. midfi's experiences seem indicative of many who have tried an idler drive, and even modest idler drives can sound very good. And yes, pretty much every direct drive that has been produced continues to work (well a huge amount of them), unles absolutely beat. All of the plastic ones did not help the DD get or keep a good reputation . Do a search for Keneda turntable plinths.
limono: Not really, unless folks have something to benefit from their promotion of a particular idea. I don't. I am just stating that all things considered, affordable idlers are still out there (even from some of the "BIG" names), and their performance can be superior to other types, assuming any comparisons occur with equally prepared (as in 100%) working) turntables with similar (or the same) cartridge brand and model, or table/arm cartridge combination.
'nuff said.
Jean Nantais (of Lenco fame) started out with a modified Miracord (a 10H? or maybe a 20H? I can't remember what he said in an email). The Dual that I have is a 1216. Not sure, but I suspect the only difference s are minor between it and a 1214 (Dual experts please wade in).
Kal Rubinson: as in THE Kal Rubinson? Perhaps funny that in the day idler to belt drive conversions occurred. I still think that a belt to idler conversion can make sense, but maybe "new construction" may be better. Idler to belt may be easier as large, "torquey" motors were the norm in the idlers compared to the belt drives. Of course now-a-days multiple motors/idlers could be used or replacement high torque motors fitted, and larger mass platters. I happen to have a very nice, very quiet, large AC induction motor I am setting up to make a new idler turntable. This motor could be used in a retro-fit of a belt drive to an idler drive as well, as long as a suitable mounting scheme can be accomplished, and assuming it would fit (I've seen automotive alternators smaller than this motor)
cyclecamper: I am not "dissing" DD here, or BD drive either. I am just stating that it seems that there has been the resurgence of interest in idlers over the last few years, and if one wants to explore the possibility, there are still some examples of idlers out there that are still affordable. I have a few DD tables as well: a Yamaha P750, a Kencraft GX870 (Kenwood/Trio), and Dual 721.
Someplace I read Ken Kessler (of Stereophile, TNT Audio, and HiFi News), and Art Dudley(Stereophile) have adopted idlers as their references. In fact KK has had an idler as a reference for the better part of a decade or longer.
randytsuch: I need to find your pix...
ORNJ: The increased torque is the whole point as far as I am concerned, and assists in the conservation of inertia. This can be accomplished a few ways:
- huge motors with high torque, platters with very large mass, a compromise between the high torque and high platter mass approach;
- multiple smaller motors (think The Voyd reference/Audionote TT3);
- and multiple contacts using a single belt (like the Funk Firm's "Vector Drive") that applies torque to the belt in at least 3 locations rather than in one.
- there are several DDs that have significant torque, but the required electronics to keep these on speed can have an effect on the sound, and often DDs were poorly implemented
phivates: ...er, how about interpretation? The argument about one being absolutely better than the other (in terms of drive method) are not really that valid. I cannot stae this enough: there are very good (and very good sounding) examples of each drive type out there. midfi's experiences seem indicative of many who have tried an idler drive, and even modest idler drives can sound very good. And yes, pretty much every direct drive that has been produced continues to work (well a huge amount of them), unles absolutely beat. All of the plastic ones did not help the DD get or keep a good reputation . Do a search for Keneda turntable plinths.
limono: Not really, unless folks have something to benefit from their promotion of a particular idea. I don't. I am just stating that all things considered, affordable idlers are still out there (even from some of the "BIG" names), and their performance can be superior to other types, assuming any comparisons occur with equally prepared (as in 100%) working) turntables with similar (or the same) cartridge brand and model, or table/arm cartridge combination.
'nuff said.
Let me ask something....and this may sound REALLY stupid.
but the main part of a turntable is:
an electric motor
speed controller
some sort of transmission system to transfer energy to the platter
Platter
and thonearm
now, how hard would it be to use a speed controller, electric motor and set up a system with belts to make your own idler drive?
You would have to also get a cart build to hold everything but has anyone tried to make their own from scratch before with good results?
but the main part of a turntable is:
an electric motor
speed controller
some sort of transmission system to transfer energy to the platter
Platter
and thonearm
now, how hard would it be to use a speed controller, electric motor and set up a system with belts to make your own idler drive?
You would have to also get a cart build to hold everything but has anyone tried to make their own from scratch before with good results?
Thanks for the open minded response. My 25 year hiatus from these info-wars has left me jaw-dropped on a bunch of issues. Idler drive? Like the Garrard I had to get away from? Which I still own? And the full range speakers in the Ampex console with the 6V6 pp mono amps with only 12 watts, which I also still have? Not junk?
Cool.
Cool.
What kind of Garrard do you have? Some say that it has to be the 301/401 to be worth restoring while others such as Nanook here say it is still a good option.
It sounds like the biggest and most obvious improvement you can make to your old table it to build your own plinth from layered birch plywood to get rid of the rumble and then balancing everything else out so there is no woble. pretty good deal if you have a Garrard laying around. I have already started hitting up antique stores and garage sales looking for anything I can find.
My old timer Garrard is a RC88/4 I think. My newest is a Type A Mk II, which came with a Pickering Fluxvalve cart. Free, off Craigslist. So no 301/401 BigDeal. I gotta ask, do we have to say plinth? Why not plynthe? Won't a base work anymore?
I would love to have this ampex combo.... if you ever want to "get away from them" ;0)
Just forget those idler clunkers .They are only good for "foot tappers" ;0)
Just forget those idler clunkers .They are only good for "foot tappers" ;0)
haha, I dont know what else to call it other than plinth....chassis maybe? Deck? Plank?
It would be interesting to hear about what you thought just upgrading those lower end garrards and what your impressions are and how much better they sound.
It would be interesting to hear about what you thought just upgrading those lower end garrards and what your impressions are and how much better they sound.
of toe tapping and "junk"
I'll take toe tapping to boredom (cd)...
phivates; Yup, all of it is still worthy of consideration as long as it is in good operating condition. Capacitors may need to be replaced as well as resisitors in electronic equipment (and tubes too if burnt), but with modern cartridges, and wiring (which is what I think makes a huge difference), one can have a great "vintage" system. The stuff you said that you still own was never junk.
randy: interesting blog. The table looks pretty good, except I would use a "sub-plinth" or second plinth of wood. It can help to stabilize the tall all-thread legs you use. Dito for the stand alone motor pod.
ORNJ: Plinth is the term that I have always used. If you call it something else no probs, folks will get it. Plinth just means "base platform".
Folks have made their own tables over the years. To me the biggest hassles are getting a good, suitable platter and bearing. After that, motors can be had, but can be quite expensive (particularly high torque induction types). AC motors require a sine wave to maintain speed and a phasing capacitor at the minimum. Electronic solutions can get pretty expensive, but are possible. DC motors have their own problems too. I've checked into using RC motors and controllers, but brushless types can be a little expensive, and the speeds are huge (sometimes several 100's to 1000's of RPM per volt). A hybrid belt/idler system is what the "idler" style Thorens tables use. It all can be done given enough time, effort and money (believe me I've looked at it all and do have a solution, but $$$s are the biggest roadblock to overcome).
I think the smartest thing one can do if wanting to build a complete new table is to re-plinth an existing turntable, such as my Sugden BD-1, add a new/better/modern tonearm with the required wiring, and a suitable cartridge.
As I stated previously, the gutted changers with my 219 arm run in the same league as a Roksan Xerxes MkI/modded RB250/Ortofon MC3Turbo cartridge (about $7k-$8k to replace with current models) and my Oracle Alex MkII/SME309/Grado Sig8 (similar cost to replace with new production, as the smallest Oracle table with suspension is the DelphiV, there is the suspensionless Paris, and no Alexandria).
I'll take toe tapping to boredom (cd)...
phivates; Yup, all of it is still worthy of consideration as long as it is in good operating condition. Capacitors may need to be replaced as well as resisitors in electronic equipment (and tubes too if burnt), but with modern cartridges, and wiring (which is what I think makes a huge difference), one can have a great "vintage" system. The stuff you said that you still own was never junk.
randy: interesting blog. The table looks pretty good, except I would use a "sub-plinth" or second plinth of wood. It can help to stabilize the tall all-thread legs you use. Dito for the stand alone motor pod.
ORNJ: Plinth is the term that I have always used. If you call it something else no probs, folks will get it. Plinth just means "base platform".
Folks have made their own tables over the years. To me the biggest hassles are getting a good, suitable platter and bearing. After that, motors can be had, but can be quite expensive (particularly high torque induction types). AC motors require a sine wave to maintain speed and a phasing capacitor at the minimum. Electronic solutions can get pretty expensive, but are possible. DC motors have their own problems too. I've checked into using RC motors and controllers, but brushless types can be a little expensive, and the speeds are huge (sometimes several 100's to 1000's of RPM per volt). A hybrid belt/idler system is what the "idler" style Thorens tables use. It all can be done given enough time, effort and money (believe me I've looked at it all and do have a solution, but $$$s are the biggest roadblock to overcome).
I think the smartest thing one can do if wanting to build a complete new table is to re-plinth an existing turntable, such as my Sugden BD-1, add a new/better/modern tonearm with the required wiring, and a suitable cartridge.
As I stated previously, the gutted changers with my 219 arm run in the same league as a Roksan Xerxes MkI/modded RB250/Ortofon MC3Turbo cartridge (about $7k-$8k to replace with current models) and my Oracle Alex MkII/SME309/Grado Sig8 (similar cost to replace with new production, as the smallest Oracle table with suspension is the DelphiV, there is the suspensionless Paris, and no Alexandria).
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