And likely a lot more cost effectively when it comes to just the machine time, let alone capital expenses.
I'm used to the one at Chris'. I don't know the detail on that one, but my impression is yours seems a tike (ie you can get a lot meatier ones).
BTW, i'd consider £15k for a decent 3-axis machine a not bad price at all.
dave
I think you will find the jet dust collector is too small! You might want to get a Y adapter and use two of them. In my setup my saw is a bit bigger (Felder K975) and a small Jet just doesn't do it. If you are not really getting all the dust some of it builds up inside and the adjustment stops get dirty and inaccurate. In the worst case if can actually ruin internal parts. BTY Be sure to ground the dust vent. JBL pro lost a woodshop due to a vent fire!
Also be sure to get two saw blades, no down time from sharpening or accidents.
I took a look at that Chinese 3 axis router. It is 15% the price of mine and claims to be much more powerful. Mine is french made! It is fine for little stuff, but saw dust is a real killer. You will also need to find real industrial router bits.
I came to the same conclusion that a good saw is much more cost effective than a complex router.
Best of luck.
Also be sure to get two saw blades, no down time from sharpening or accidents.
I took a look at that Chinese 3 axis router. It is 15% the price of mine and claims to be much more powerful. Mine is french made! It is fine for little stuff, but saw dust is a real killer. You will also need to find real industrial router bits.
I came to the same conclusion that a good saw is much more cost effective than a complex router.
Best of luck.
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Hi Simon, thanks for sharing your thoughts and tips.
The dealer I visited didn't have any Felder on display but he did have the lower end Hammer K3 Winner in. I had a look around the machine and it was impressive for the money but ultimately I dismissed it as the build quality raised question marks, particularly the sliding table, the fences and the feel of the blade adjustment knobs. I'd put the K3 in the 'hi-end hobbyist saw' bracket rather than the industrial one. They also had some Altendorf in stock but the only one in my size and price range was the RA6 and compared to the more expensive F45 ELMO it just didn't feel as sturdy, the guy said the RA6 was made in China unlike the other models from Altendorf which are German engineered. Certainly the F45 was the best he had in the show room but at £25k it should be! It was essentially CNC controlled and all the fences and blade adjustments were done using numerical input for extreme accuracy. A dream machine for sure.
In the end for my budget it came down to the SCM Minimax SC3W, the Wadkin SP130 or the Robland E300. The SCM was too small, more like a regular sized table saw rather than a panel saw. Very well built though. As for the Wadkin I almost went with this one but the thing that put me off was the very noisy motor and the sliding table action wasn't quite as smooth as some of the others. The Robland felt the most like the Altendorf F45 out of them all in terms of build. The table slides easily with a gentle push of the finger and the whole construction is generally massive. The induction motor was also surprisingly quiet, at least compared to the noisy Wadkin. There's zero play or flex in any part of the machine and the accuracy of the adjustments with digital gauges on the fences sealed the deal for me so that's the one I went with.
That's disheartening to hear about the dust extractor. I never saw it running but the dealer specifically recommend the JET as being capable of handling extraction duties from the machine. Are you sure its the same model you have? The guy did have a smaller one in stock that shifted 950m3/h as opposed to 1300m3/h from the model I ordered. If you can confirm I'll give them a ring just to double check and if needs be, change my order to the larger 1800m3/h model.
Any particular brand you'd recommend? The saw doesn't come fitted with one from the factory so this is something I'll need to get at some point. The machine is also fitted with a 120mm scoring function but I'm not sure how much I'll use this. I'm not cutting veneered or melamine stock.
I've still no real clue about which machine to go for. The Chinese ones promise a little too much for not so much money - you always get what you pay for and like virtually everything that's manufactured in China its made to a price. Add on top of that the import duties and shipping costs from them to a UK port and from there to my door and suddenly its not the fantastic bargain it appeared to be.
The European CNC machines are few and far between unless you've a significant budget. Most affordable models <£5k seem to be hobbyist desktop models and this is no bad thing for a one man workshop but they aren't particularly fast. They're accurate though with most of the ball screw models quoting 0.01mm repeatable accuracy. The quicker models are generally rack and pinion but again they start around £7k upwards.
I'm still not 100% sure I need a CNC machine at all to be honest. Its definitely luxury territory more than necessity. I can do by hand what the CNC would do and with not dissimilar accuracy for the task at hand. Where CNC comes into its own is the part to part tolerance and lack of labour involved. Just program the G-Code, a bit of calibration and then push go. Pretty easy stuff.
Hmm... I might forgo the CNC for now and upgrade my other tools. I could do with a new jigsaw, dual action sander and new spray equipment is never a bad investment.
Yep I spent the chunk of my budget on the panel saw. Its where the vast majority of work will be done.
Lots of CNC DIY'ers out there but its whole new ball game. I'll stick with audio but that's definitely a very impressive venture to undertake. The videos in particular on that website make almost want to go out and at least try to build one... almost.
Wow, I'm glad that someone else is in the same boat as I. I have to ask swmbo before I do anything, or prep myself for the fallout of red that follows....... Enough on that. Also, I note that you've come to the same conclusion as me. Good tools are worth more than they cost. From a woodworking perspective you are on the right track. I am going to start some cabinet speaker projects tomorrow that I hope will be far above par.
Just a primer on a couple things I've done so far myself......
KTMM's Woodworking Projects @ LumberJocks.com ~ woodworking community
Looking forward to seeing the completed works you have ahead.
Just a primer on a couple things I've done so far myself......
KTMM's Woodworking Projects @ LumberJocks.com ~ woodworking community
Looking forward to seeing the completed works you have ahead.
Hey Dave,
Indeed these things come in all shapes and sizes. I looked over a fair few machines and whilst its compact I wouldn't call 480kg less meaty. That's about the weight of 5 average sized men. Good luck dead lifting that 😀
But I've no doubt there's even more robust machines out there. This one is professional workshop or light industrial. Ideally suited to a one man workshop who takes care of his tools and uses them correctly. The heavier one's are generally made to take the abuse from two guys on minimum wage throwing wood through it all day everyday for the next 20 years.
I had the same impression..
..figuring that it would take a 🤐 of a lot of time (and frustration) to come up with similar results. 😀
Still, having previously looked into pricing on 5+ axis machines 😱 - I can understand the desire.
BTW, (though you are probably already aware), ShopBots is another non-DIY source for CNC machines at "lower" prices. (..and I use the word "lower" euphemistically.) 😱 They also a "5" axis machine (moving table) for less than 40K US, a veritable bargain. 😀
Just use the fork lift.
The shop Chris is at tends towards mid-level industrial. It is huge boon to have access to all the tools there. The dust extraction system probably wouldn't fit in your garage.
dave
What about importing a used machine from the Continent? The company I work for has imported VMCs, Horizontal Boring machines, CNC Lathes, etc from a variety of Europe based machine re-sellers. Many of them will even re-furbish the machine as well. Here are a few contacts. Maybe you can email them your requirements.
Monique de Mol
info@jmach.nl
Machinehandel Jansen Metaalbewerkings machines , metalworkingmachines , mashinen
Jansen Machinehandel BV
Tel: +31 (0) 76 5015750
E-mail: info@jansenmachinehandel.nl
Machinehandel Jansen Metaalbewerkings machines , metalworkingmachines , mashinen
Richard Peter
WERKZEUGMASCHINEN-HANDEL GMBH
Tel.: 0049 - (0)7223 - 96170
Hans Klein, Werkzeugmaschinen-Handel GmbH
rpe@klein-werkzeugmaschinen.de
Petr Strycek or
Gabriela Štorková
FERMAT CZ s.r.o.
Tel: + 420 773 339 642
Fermat
storkova@fermatmachinery.com
Thomas Leleu
Tél +33 320756097
tleleu@groupefmo.com
THe other options is an airsled Appliance, Furniture, Safe & ATM Movers, Moving Equipment & Systems – Air Sled.
BTW for moving bigger machines I would contact Jack Vaughen at AirBarge Offers a unique Modular System of standard load bearing platforms and containers that float on an air cushion. These Units provide virtually frictionless movement in any direction for loads of any size and weight when powered from a standard. They specialise in moving large objects like airframes, aircraft engines, High Voltage transformers, etc..
Since the issue primarily seems to be the front baffle why not make it out of a mould of a high density PVC.This way you need to only make a single mould from say aluminum on the CNC machine and reuse the mould.
Indeed it is nice to have access to good tools. Chris must be very proud of his workshop.
I don't think you know how lucky you are in being able to see most of the machines at once. I would have gone with the Altendorf except it was more than twice the price!
As to the dust collector my saw uses 315mm blades and has both the normal in table and an over the blade dust collector, so if your dealer suggested that one I would go with it. Check after a few uses to be sure dust is not building up, if it is since you are a good customer the dealer should exchange it for a larger model. Those units are slightly different than the ones sold here so I cannot make a specific answer.
Now as to blades, Freud is about as inexpensive as I would go. Forrest is considered a step up but there are a lot of good blades. More important is the blade design. There are some blades that are "Thin Kerf" the idea is that you do not waste as much wood. Some prefer the thicker blades to make a straighter and smoother cut. The most popular tooth style is "ATB" or alternate top bevel. One tooth tips to the left the next to the right. These do not leave a flat bottom cut if you are doing grooving. Then there is number of teeth, on this I cannot give you decent advice as too many teeth and the saw cuts slower, makes more dust and risks burning the edge. Too few teeth and you will get splintering at the cut edge. As wood quality varies so will your expectation of the blade you need. There are combination blades with a few teeth grouped and then a gap until the next group, these are hand to leave in the machine if someone else will use it. As to the small counter rotating blade on my machine using it is optional so I use it rarely but it is well worth having.
So you might want to pick up a few Freud blades and see which works best for you. Even more important is who will resharpen you blades!
I have other machines that I use to make templates, so we do mostly template routing. It has the advantage of being easier to do on large panels for small details. You can use your saw to make templates if you cut pieces and glue them up to fit.
There is one big difference, here we use "Dado" blades to cut "Rebates" also know as "Rabbits." So a lot of work you would route we do on the same saw. My set of "dado" blades were around $2000! But they take standard carbide inserts so the never need to be sharpened. When a "Dado" is sharpened it looses diameter and unless all the parts are matched it is ruined.
I have a wood shaper which is an over sized router built into a table. It has the distinction of being the machine that most removes fingers, so we rarely use it. Instead we have a small router lift fitted into one of the bench tops.
So in my opinion you are doing everything dead bang right!
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Thanks for the advice Simon.
Yes the Altendorfs are very expensive but the quality and precision seems to be the best available. I particularly loved the idea of cnc control over the straight, crosscut and mitre fences. All you had to was enter your data on a touch screen and the whole lot gracefully adjusted using servo motors. Extremely accurate and a little bit cool too. 🙂
I think the extractor will be OK, I can't see the dealer selling the wrong product especially when he had the chance to sell me the next model up for more money. When I ring to arrange delivery later this week I'll double check just to be sure.
Generally I like thin kerf blades, they cut faster with less load on the motor cutting thicker material but they can flex a tad more than the thicker kerfs. For most work I can live with that though. 48 tooth seems to be the sweet spot for MDF in terms of cut quality vs. speed. I've ordered Trend blades this time around, never used them before but they seem to be a step up over the Bosch/Dewalt I've had before.
Yes the Altendorfs are very expensive but the quality and precision seems to be the best available. I particularly loved the idea of cnc control over the straight, crosscut and mitre fences. All you had to was enter your data on a touch screen and the whole lot gracefully adjusted using servo motors. Extremely accurate and a little bit cool too. 🙂
I think the extractor will be OK, I can't see the dealer selling the wrong product especially when he had the chance to sell me the next model up for more money. When I ring to arrange delivery later this week I'll double check just to be sure.
Generally I like thin kerf blades, they cut faster with less load on the motor cutting thicker material but they can flex a tad more than the thicker kerfs. For most work I can live with that though. 48 tooth seems to be the sweet spot for MDF in terms of cut quality vs. speed. I've ordered Trend blades this time around, never used them before but they seem to be a step up over the Bosch/Dewalt I've had before.
Hi,
could you give advice on blade selection?
I have 10inch blade capacity, but 48tooth on a 12inch blade sounds like enormous teeth.
How do we recognise a thin kerf from a thick kerf?
Most of my blades are tipped. Does that make them equivalent to a thin kerf since the tip are much wider than the blade thickness?
could you give advice on blade selection?
I have 10inch blade capacity, but 48tooth on a 12inch blade sounds like enormous teeth.
How do we recognise a thin kerf from a thick kerf?
Most of my blades are tipped. Does that make them equivalent to a thin kerf since the tip are much wider than the blade thickness?
Great to see you back Shinobiwan.
I notice that you are considering the Scanspeak Illuminator 15WU. I do see the rear ventilation in the narrow enclosure being a bit of a concern and the neo magnet being a very appealing solution. However I can tell you that I tried the SS15WU in a 2 way and it simply wasn't up to scratch. It just doesnt have the midrange clarity and detail necessary.
I notice that you are considering the Scanspeak Illuminator 15WU. I do see the rear ventilation in the narrow enclosure being a bit of a concern and the neo magnet being a very appealing solution. However I can tell you that I tried the SS15WU in a 2 way and it simply wasn't up to scratch. It just doesnt have the midrange clarity and detail necessary.
I find the digital display of blade height and angle very useful. The old fashioned fence ruler with magnifier allows setting to with .005" by eye which is close enough for my work.
I forgot to mention blade speed. I run mine at 5000 rpm which makes a smoother cut and more smaller dust.
The Dewalt blades sold here in their best grade are decent blades. We should distinguish between real particle board and MDF. Particle board is fairly rough grained and kills blades quickly so a cheap blade is reasonable. MDF is designed for machining and I would probably use a 12" 60 tooth ATB blade to cut it. Thin kerf would work particularly on a sliding table saw. I have also use HDF in 1" thick. A two person job to move a sheet!
If you get to real wood the thicker blade has an advantage. When you cut figured wood (Lots of curvy grain) the wood actually will not be straight after you cut it! That is because the board was trued at the mill and when you cut it the internal stresses change. Zebra wood is the worst I have ever used for this. The best approach for figured wood is to cut over size and the joint or edge trim if you have a table clamp.
But you really seem to have a handle on the kind of work you want to do and what it takes. So best of luck and may you end up with all ten fingers!
Don't be afraid to use a 7.5" blade on a 10" saw if your cut isn't too deep. It's easier on the saw.
If you don't recognize the difference, ask your local hardware guy.
No, the thin kerf is a result of a thinner blade and thinner 'tips' They do cut faster but as Simon says...
Hi David, good to see you still around. Still tweaking and modifying the set of speakers that replaced the Deltas or have you come up with another design?
Are your thoughts in comparison to the revelator and cquenze? I've had the revelators in both sizes and their great drivers. Pretty much up there with the cquenze. I haven't done much at all with the illuminators though.
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