Possible change of midwoofer for the Aurora - illuminator 15wu
Just running it through its paces against the Audiotechnology c-quenze 15H. Look pretty promising so far though. Also the limited space behind the driver when in the cabinet will benefit from the more open basket design of the illuminator.
Still waiting on a price for the CNC. They're pretty busy so I have to wait in line but fingers crossed its feasible.
Knocked up a model of the illuminator this evening to give a better idea of how it will fit within the cabinet and baffle(will show the improved 'breathing room' later.
Just running it through its paces against the Audiotechnology c-quenze 15H. Look pretty promising so far though. Also the limited space behind the driver when in the cabinet will benefit from the more open basket design of the illuminator.
Still waiting on a price for the CNC. They're pretty busy so I have to wait in line but fingers crossed its feasible.
Knocked up a model of the illuminator this evening to give a better idea of how it will fit within the cabinet and baffle(will show the improved 'breathing room' later.
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i'm very keen to hear what your quote for the cnc comes back as, because i can make up the model in the same way (though not as amorphous) with maya unlimited and cad, but i always wondered what the cost would be to make it real. for smaller polymer and metal objects you can 3d print them with stereo lithography at rapid prototyping websites all over starting to pop up. pretty reasonable pricing too.
OK maybe the CNC option isn't such a great idea. At least not from that particular shop I was interested in anyway.
Had the quote back today and its uneconomical for small runs of say 5 pairs of speakers. My design is slightly complex and does require a 5 axis machine for most of the parts so a design that can stick within the confines of a 3 axis machine would likely be much more economical I'm told.
Basically it breaks down into a £500 tooling, programming and setup charge per run. And then each pair in that run would be £400 with a minimum order of 5 pairs - if you order more you get it for less. This includes MDF obviously.
So for 5 pairs your looking at £2500. I was thinking more along the lines of half that at the very most. I really hope they get what they're asking but it won't be from me
. If you do 3 or 4 runs at that price you could buy yourself a really nice used 5 axis machine!
I'll keep shopping around but I suspect I'll have to do this the old fashioned way.
Had the quote back today and its uneconomical for small runs of say 5 pairs of speakers. My design is slightly complex and does require a 5 axis machine for most of the parts so a design that can stick within the confines of a 3 axis machine would likely be much more economical I'm told.
Basically it breaks down into a £500 tooling, programming and setup charge per run. And then each pair in that run would be £400 with a minimum order of 5 pairs - if you order more you get it for less. This includes MDF obviously.
So for 5 pairs your looking at £2500. I was thinking more along the lines of half that at the very most. I really hope they get what they're asking but it won't be from me
. If you do 3 or 4 runs at that price you could buy yourself a really nice used 5 axis machine!I'll keep shopping around but I suspect I'll have to do this the old fashioned way.
That would be a very good suggestion under normal circumstances but my cabinet shapes are problematic for laminated construction and only get worse the large the cabinets get.
I'll figure something out even if its means just doing all the work myself for the first few pairs. I've only had one quote so I'm hopeful shopping around will drop the price.
Had another quote its better than the first but still £1750. It seems the setup charge is the killer - £450 this time vs £500. This charge isn't so bad if your having a large production run done but for just 5 pairs, its a big deal.
Its also a recurring charge so everytime you want that particular model done and whether its one pair or ten pairs, they're gonna charge that.
You do this a couple of times and you've spent the best part of £4 or £5k on what? 10 pairs of parts for speakers? Silly really when you consider this is MDF and an 8ft x 4ft sheet of 18mm costs around £40 for the decent moisture resistant stuff.
With that in mind, I'm seriously thinking about just getting myself a CNC machine. For up to £5k you can buy some fairly serious looking 3 or 4 axis machines that would suit low volume use.
Something like this:
Brand New 1500w 4ftx 4ft CNC Router/Cutter/Engraver +CE | eBay UK
Although I don't fancy the idea of a half ton machine travelling half way around the world but the price and build quality seems to be there.
Hmm much more research needed but its definitely worth looking at I think.
Its also a recurring charge so everytime you want that particular model done and whether its one pair or ten pairs, they're gonna charge that.
You do this a couple of times and you've spent the best part of £4 or £5k on what? 10 pairs of parts for speakers? Silly really when you consider this is MDF and an 8ft x 4ft sheet of 18mm costs around £40 for the decent moisture resistant stuff.
With that in mind, I'm seriously thinking about just getting myself a CNC machine. For up to £5k you can buy some fairly serious looking 3 or 4 axis machines that would suit low volume use.
Something like this:
Brand New 1500w 4ftx 4ft CNC Router/Cutter/Engraver +CE | eBay UK
Although I don't fancy the idea of a half ton machine travelling half way around the world but the price and build quality seems to be there.
Hmm much more research needed but its definitely worth looking at I think.
Shin, London Metropolitan University have a 5 axis and I think you can pay a yearly fee and get some kind of membership which gives you a subsidised charge for getting stuff made in their workshop. I don't think you need to be a Tower Hamlets resident - its worth contacting them.
Another option is Corian?- I know the guys at Corian UK, they have their own internal workshop and I get big discounts inc tooling costs, maybe I could introduce you.
btw your rendering skills are ******** good
Another option is Corian?- I know the guys at Corian UK, they have their own internal workshop and I get big discounts inc tooling costs, maybe I could introduce you.
btw your rendering skills are ******** good
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Mate I'd nearly do the things in billet aluminium for you for that price
(That's what I'm dong for my next speakers
What about getting the majority of it done on a 2 axis machine, then doing the facets yourself?
Haha, surreal isn't it. When I went into this I was there thinking yeah it'll be around £800 or £1000 at the most. But nope double that
I'm still waiting on one last quote and I should have that by early next week but I'm not holding out much hope. This has probably done me a favour really because there's nothing quite like having complete control over everything and a cnc machine has the capability to earn money all by itself should fellow DIY'ers want a small job doing for a reasonable price. There's definitely a niche for that based on what I've been experiencing in the last couple of months.
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Thanks for the suggestion but I'm all the up in Chesterfield and was looking for a relatively local company to do the work (current quotes have been from companies in Sheffield, Derby and Nottingham for reference). I've just bought a Citroen Berlingo mini van so I could collect materials myself rather than relying on hefty delivery charges and the potential for damages.
I'll try to exhaust other possibilities before looking further afield.
What's the costing like though? I was looking into acrylic for the baffles but again its uneconomical. An 80mm thick sheet with dimensions 900mm x 210mm is £300. That's a big slab of acrylic so it was never going to be cheap but that's still £600 for a pair of baffles. I'd imagine corian was about the same price?
Cheers, excellent tool is CAD.
Can you PM me your email address bill and I'll send the file.
What do they work in? I can export to most common 3D formats such as STEP and IGES etc.
Say, I think we have been down this "road" before.
I'm assuming the baffle is the complex structure that requires more than a 3 axis machine. Correct?
OK, so perhaps not a poly infused cement for production.. but a hard cast urethane seems about right to me for this application.
Smooth-Cast® 300, 300Q, 305, 310 Product Information | Smooth-On
YouTube - Pouring Liquid Plastic Resin into a Mold | Mold Making Tutorials
If you "void out" a lot of the non-essential areas then it will require a lot less urethane. And in fact you could use another material to dampen those voids to get a better product altogether. (..remember the silicone caulk in the pipe?)
I'm assuming the baffle is the complex structure that requires more than a 3 axis machine. Correct?
OK, so perhaps not a poly infused cement for production.. but a hard cast urethane seems about right to me for this application.
Smooth-Cast® 300, 300Q, 305, 310 Product Information | Smooth-On
YouTube - Pouring Liquid Plastic Resin into a Mold | Mold Making Tutorials
If you "void out" a lot of the non-essential areas then it will require a lot less urethane. And in fact you could use another material to dampen those voids to get a better product altogether. (..remember the silicone caulk in the pipe?)
I don't understand the set up fee? Once set up we are good for every run. But then we use a 3-axis machine.
dave
Hey Shin, good to see you back in business!
Your builds set an example for amateurs like myself!
Just wanted to ask your opinion: how do you think ATC dome mids compare to these Seases you picked for your latest project? Do they offer higher degree of clarity and resolution? I'm asking because I have the ATC mids here and been thinking if I should ditch them and get something else?
The CNC idea wasn't as simple as I thought. A 3 or 4 axis machines isn't completely sufficient for all that I'd be throwing at it. A 5 axis is but there's no such thing as a reasonably priced 5 axis machine. A good used one that useful for cutting 4x4ft sheets starts around £15k if your lucky enough to find one at that price, the vast majority are significantly higher than that.
So I've gone back and looked at what will do what I need and the simplest and most cost efficient option is a very good industrial panel saw coupled with a 3 axis CNC router. These 2 machines will accomplish 99% of what a 5 axis machine would do for my applications. The basic idea here is I'd cut the tricky mitres and straight lines with the panel saw and the more intricate details such as rebate channels, driver cutouts and so on would be added with the CNC machine.
For the panel saw I've bought a Robland E300. This is an absolute beast of a machine weighing nearly half a ton with a 4hp motor, 12" blade, digital readouts on the blade angle and fences. I've ordered this with the 1.25m long sliding table so its relatively compact.
Here's the same machine with the 2.5m sliding table option:
That thing is gonna make a lot of dust so I've got a JET DC1300 extractor to handle all that as I work.
For the CNC machine I was looking at the High Z S-1000 from CNC Step:
We're also converting the carport into a workshop to give more room than the current garage. So for a time there isn't going to be any build pictures of speakers but I will show the new workshop in progress.
So I've gone back and looked at what will do what I need and the simplest and most cost efficient option is a very good industrial panel saw coupled with a 3 axis CNC router. These 2 machines will accomplish 99% of what a 5 axis machine would do for my applications. The basic idea here is I'd cut the tricky mitres and straight lines with the panel saw and the more intricate details such as rebate channels, driver cutouts and so on would be added with the CNC machine.
For the panel saw I've bought a Robland E300. This is an absolute beast of a machine weighing nearly half a ton with a 4hp motor, 12" blade, digital readouts on the blade angle and fences. I've ordered this with the 1.25m long sliding table so its relatively compact.
Here's the same machine with the 2.5m sliding table option:
That thing is gonna make a lot of dust so I've got a JET DC1300 extractor to handle all that as I work.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
For the CNC machine I was looking at the High Z S-1000 from CNC Step:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
We're also converting the carport into a workshop to give more room than the current garage. So for a time there isn't going to be any build pictures of speakers but I will show the new workshop in progress.
Hey Shin, good to see you back in business!
Your builds set an example for amateurs like myself!
Just wanted to ask your opinion: how do you think ATC dome mids compare to these Seases you picked for your latest project? Do they offer higher degree of clarity and resolution? I'm asking because I have the ATC mids here and been thinking if I should ditch them and get something else?
Well they're very different products. If you did press the W12 into the same spot as an ATC dome mid then you'd be sacrificing dynamics for resolution but the W12 isn't tuned as a midrange because it can and will do bass. There's an obvious trade for that flexibility and its in the sensitivity. I'd take either depending on the mood I'm in. If you've got the ATC's and they're the supers rather than standards I'd consider them keepers.
Wait till you've got them in a design, listen to them, live with them for a few months and then decide.
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