Of course, lets do that..who cares about the best in room bass response. Did you even read he wants this for HT and Rock and Roll, he isnt listening to 2-channel classical crap 😉
Last edited:
OK, its good to see that we are converging to the same point at least on the speaker them and not the houses 🙂
I have also lived in a few different places and I am originally form Peru and my father is a civil engineer so he constructed our houses there. I only can say that even though the houses we lived in Peru that were all concrete and bricks were awesome and also withstood one of the greatest earthquakes ( 7.4 degrees richter ) also the houses here in the US have their advantages, so I would say that the best house would be one design and constructed with exactly what you want to do with it in mind and do each section with different materials and technology according to whats needed. So no one is better.
Anyway, the Subwoofer I have is an Audiosource PSW 100 frequency response ( according to their literature so I dont know how accurate is it) is 30 to 250 Hz.
The house I live in is Sheetrock but the old speakers I have that have 10" JBL woofers shake it pretty nice and the kick from them is pretty decent.
The dimensions of the room are: around 15 feet by 30 feet. With us sitting in the middle to watch movies.
Thank you.
Leo
I have also lived in a few different places and I am originally form Peru and my father is a civil engineer so he constructed our houses there. I only can say that even though the houses we lived in Peru that were all concrete and bricks were awesome and also withstood one of the greatest earthquakes ( 7.4 degrees richter ) also the houses here in the US have their advantages, so I would say that the best house would be one design and constructed with exactly what you want to do with it in mind and do each section with different materials and technology according to whats needed. So no one is better.
Anyway, the Subwoofer I have is an Audiosource PSW 100 frequency response ( according to their literature so I dont know how accurate is it) is 30 to 250 Hz.
The house I live in is Sheetrock but the old speakers I have that have 10" JBL woofers shake it pretty nice and the kick from them is pretty decent.
The dimensions of the room are: around 15 feet by 30 feet. With us sitting in the middle to watch movies.
Thank you.
Leo
If this design is meant for movies at all then he is leading you down the wrong path!
Sorry about the house discussions, there was no need for the original comments about drywall.. its silly!
Sorry about the house discussions, there was no need for the original comments about drywall.. its silly!
Well. as I explained in the first pages of the thread, the speakers are going to be used for movies and music (rock and trans music mostly) 60% movies and 40% music I would say. With the occasional party where I will raise the volume some.
Leo
Leo
I know he missed that...its what 2-channel guys tend to do 🙁
For the expert two channel throwback vinyl lover guy...the OP posted this..
Um....I think he needs bass management!!
For the expert two channel throwback vinyl lover guy...the OP posted this..
Um....I think he needs bass management!!
I don't see a problem with that. In fact, that is what I do with my system, but I gear it more towards music (simply a 2-channel system).
It sounds like you are in the same boat. The question is, where do you want to emphasize the system?
Do you want a home theater system or do you want a stereo system?
I know you said it plays music only 40% of the time, but I just want to know which way you want to put the emphasis on the design.
I agree, the wall construction is really a diversion right now.
Is there a build difference?
Im not buying it because a properly integerated sub is seemless and it does not matter if its music or movies.
I never build my speakers based on anything more then wanting quality sound. I build them based on also knowing that I have subwoofers to handle all low bass frequencies that are not localized anyways.
Do you atleast agree that we will have a pre/pro or AVR involved with bass management so that we have a XO for the mains and the subwoofer?
I have followed the thread from the start since this is how I started out too ( I listed drivers and asked what I should do...I went active with the DCX and never looked back) . The OP is not a 2-ch audiophile type so it might be wrong to lead him down the path of 2.0 design logic.
Last edited:
I think that there is, but I am not well versed on Home Theater setup. maybe Leo should be posting on Audioholics forum?
However, there are differences between the two systems and that is why there is THX certified systems and home audio systems. Perhaps someone versed on this can chime in.
If home theater is really the important goal here, then you really should be discussing a 5.1 or 7.1 system instead of 2 speakers and a sub. Two different worlds.
I apologize if I may have been wasting a lot of time (mine and others) because I failed to read Leo's post on system goals.
No, no no. The 2 speaker setup is the way I want to go. You guys are on the right track!
I dont want to build a 5.1 or anything like that now and I dont know if I will in the future.
In that sense, I am a little like Thorsten, I still dont see the big advantage of the 5.1 setups.
At the most I will build these speakers and later use some simple ones with the current JBL's I have for the rear and thats it.
Leo
I dont want to build a 5.1 or anything like that now and I dont know if I will in the future.
In that sense, I am a little like Thorsten, I still dont see the big advantage of the 5.1 setups.
At the most I will build these speakers and later use some simple ones with the current JBL's I have for the rear and thats it.
Leo
Loren, you have been awesome. Don't take my questions the wrong way.
IMO, I would build my speakers for HT the same way I would for music. He is already picking the sensitivity/pro audio drivers so that is one part the only other part is the constant directivity but that is okay. He will get there with his next build 😉
There is no difference other then max SPL and constant directivity but I think both music and movies need those so in my experience good designs are just good speakers for both music and movies.
The big beef I have is all this silly talk bass in rooms with drywall and not using bass management., its foolish to consider not using it. Hence, your original F3 @ 58 Hz is 100% fine and you should move forward with that idea.
He wants two speakers that will also integrate with the HT setup. Nothing is really different just use a pre/pro or AVR with a sub out and main speakers set to small.
IMO, I would build my speakers for HT the same way I would for music. He is already picking the sensitivity/pro audio drivers so that is one part the only other part is the constant directivity but that is okay. He will get there with his next build 😉
There is no difference other then max SPL and constant directivity but I think both music and movies need those so in my experience good designs are just good speakers for both music and movies.
The big beef I have is all this silly talk bass in rooms with drywall and not using bass management., its foolish to consider not using it. Hence, your original F3 @ 58 Hz is 100% fine and you should move forward with that idea.
He wants two speakers that will also integrate with the HT setup. Nothing is really different just use a pre/pro or AVR with a sub out and main speakers set to small.
Maybe I was misleading on my respinse. I just said that I use it 60% for movies but I still want to do a Music system mostly, lets say like that.
The movies are going to sound great anyway and the quality of this setup plus the subwoofer will make it great no matter what.
I love my JBL setup and it is **** compared to what this is going to be 🙂
Leo
The movies are going to sound great anyway and the quality of this setup plus the subwoofer will make it great no matter what.
I love my JBL setup and it is **** compared to what this is going to be 🙂
Leo
Hi,
Yup. I have no data nor any opinion. Nowhere did I say "custom build rooms".
Instead I was actually referring to the common construction of normal homes without "custom build rooms". The kind of homes most posters from the US here likely live in.
Now how you arrive from that at the conclusion that I am talking about rooms custom build for good acoustics (I hope at least they are) which are likely found in less than 10% of all homes in the USA remains a mystery to me.
WHAT DEBATE? You are so far out of the ballpark, you are probably not even any longer in the same county.
Well, having good measurements is nice. I always like having them. I learned long ago however that just because something measures well it does not automatically sound good. I have used equalisation for a long time and I am very familiar with what such system (be they parametric and graphic EQ's operated and set by sound professionals or be they automatic computer controlled systems) can do and what they do not do.
WE? Who we?
Actually, I could not care what the in room response is like, if the results fail to make me enjoy the music. As it so happens, I am from a Pro-Audio background originally and (excluding 5.1) all the things you are talking about I had many chances to use (often requirements).
In the end, I find all things are compromises.
It seems I like the particular compromise I have arrived at, one that omits digital bass managements, AV Receivers and 5/7.1 Surround sound etc.
Equally, it seems you are very happy with the approach you take.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
Let the OP decide whose advise is more to HIS liking.
Is it? It is precisely the way REL (who have a very good reputation for making subwoofers for music only sytems) recommend it.
As said, I would not do that in a PA system and in most systems (run the Sub of the mains). But at home I have no desire to listen to fully active multiway, heavily equalised systems. I find these kind of systems just lack certain (subjective) qualities that are more relevant to me than a ruler flat frequency response.
And especially with Tube Amplifiers driving the mains and having solid state Amp's on subs just does not seem to work very well (I tried many times, remember, I'm ex pro-audio and used to have a fully active Speaker System with Motional Feedback of my own design in the 80's), I can always hear the subs play a different tune than the mains. So I end up switching them off.
A few years back I had a phase where I did have a digital EQ in my system (one with both parametric EQ's and graphic 3rd octave EQ) and at shows I was always reminded how much it sounded alike to other systems demoed using various forms of room EQ.
Eventually this wore off and I went back to a hardcore minimalist system and have been listening to much more music ever since and gotten more enjoyment.
I sincerely hope you get as much musical enjoyment from your system as I get from my own, despite the radically different approaches we take.
Ciao T
Yup. I have no data nor any opinion. Nowhere did I say "custom build rooms".
Instead I was actually referring to the common construction of normal homes without "custom build rooms". The kind of homes most posters from the US here likely live in.
Now how you arrive from that at the conclusion that I am talking about rooms custom build for good acoustics (I hope at least they are) which are likely found in less than 10% of all homes in the USA remains a mystery to me.
WHAT DEBATE? You are so far out of the ballpark, you are probably not even any longer in the same county.
Well, having good measurements is nice. I always like having them. I learned long ago however that just because something measures well it does not automatically sound good. I have used equalisation for a long time and I am very familiar with what such system (be they parametric and graphic EQ's operated and set by sound professionals or be they automatic computer controlled systems) can do and what they do not do.
WE? Who we?
Actually, I could not care what the in room response is like, if the results fail to make me enjoy the music. As it so happens, I am from a Pro-Audio background originally and (excluding 5.1) all the things you are talking about I had many chances to use (often requirements).
In the end, I find all things are compromises.
It seems I like the particular compromise I have arrived at, one that omits digital bass managements, AV Receivers and 5/7.1 Surround sound etc.
Equally, it seems you are very happy with the approach you take.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
Let the OP decide whose advise is more to HIS liking.
Is it? It is precisely the way REL (who have a very good reputation for making subwoofers for music only sytems) recommend it.
As said, I would not do that in a PA system and in most systems (run the Sub of the mains). But at home I have no desire to listen to fully active multiway, heavily equalised systems. I find these kind of systems just lack certain (subjective) qualities that are more relevant to me than a ruler flat frequency response.
And especially with Tube Amplifiers driving the mains and having solid state Amp's on subs just does not seem to work very well (I tried many times, remember, I'm ex pro-audio and used to have a fully active Speaker System with Motional Feedback of my own design in the 80's), I can always hear the subs play a different tune than the mains. So I end up switching them off.
A few years back I had a phase where I did have a digital EQ in my system (one with both parametric EQ's and graphic 3rd octave EQ) and at shows I was always reminded how much it sounded alike to other systems demoed using various forms of room EQ.
Eventually this wore off and I went back to a hardcore minimalist system and have been listening to much more music ever since and gotten more enjoyment.
I sincerely hope you get as much musical enjoyment from your system as I get from my own, despite the radically different approaches we take.
Ciao T
ThorenL, we both enjoy our setups a great deal.
I just think its not wise to design something strictly with 2.0 in mind...do you expect him to swap the sub over the the sub out channel for movies?
He posted from the start that he will be using these for movies 60% of the time. He does want incredible 2 channel for music too. Arguing over bass management is silly considering all the OPs requirements. You need to think about his real needs and not what you like to use. You have to think, he is not remotely like you...he is going to not fuss over the bass like you might these days.
That's nice....of course this thread is not a music only design thread so that point is kind of meaningless 😉
I just think its not wise to design something strictly with 2.0 in mind...do you expect him to swap the sub over the the sub out channel for movies?
He posted from the start that he will be using these for movies 60% of the time. He does want incredible 2 channel for music too. Arguing over bass management is silly considering all the OPs requirements. You need to think about his real needs and not what you like to use. You have to think, he is not remotely like you...he is going to not fuss over the bass like you might these days.
That's nice....of course this thread is not a music only design thread so that point is kind of meaningless 😉
Last edited:
Do you understand that they are discussing connecting your sub woofer to your mains and creating some sort of XO without using your AVR?
This means you will not have any LFE during movies (well, depending on your AVR), which will absolutely suck for movies.
Its just not a good design strategy, IMO.
Well if thats so, will there be a way to keep the subwoofer independent from the rest of the speakers, the way I have it now? So that if I play music in a party for example, I dont even have to turn the sub on at all?
Leo
Leo
Hi,
Okay. Then lets ask some more precise questions:
1) Will you be using an AV Receiver or a 2-Channel integrated Amplifier or Pre/Power Combo?
2) Your Audiosource Subwoofer has a single 10" Driver. Do you really want to put all the load of handling all the low frequencies below around 80Hz onto that Sub AND add another active crossover?
The kind of approach doug20 advocates does have merrit.
I have implemented such a kind of system in a friends Studio in the late 90's, using a BSS digital crossover/EQ combo (heavily modified), gosh, that cost nearly 5000 UK Pound retail back then and that was before the UK joined the PIIGS and the pound became worthless, We used a number of Amp's and modified (Focal twetter instead of Vifa) PMC Monitors, the 15" Versions with the 15" bass extenders.
The complexity is great, however you can get practically perfect time alignment, more or less rulerflat in room response (we had to compromise in the end as we could not get the same "flat" response across a wide enough area). The system is excellent for most jobs in the studio.
It sounds immediately impressive, mixes done using this setup translate very well (if you know what you are doing), yet I do not really enjoy listening to music on this system (neither does my friend in London, but he did not wanted a system to enjoy music on). Another friend has a PMC/Bryson setup for home. It shares many of these traits.
Such systems do not really have an easy way of acquiring them in steps. BUT if they float your boat, it is worth digging deep and getting something like that. If you buy Amp's and digital crossover carefully 2nd Hand, you can probably do all of it for under 1,500 USD, plan time to wait for bargains.
On the other hand, when I still had my main setup in London with Tannoy 15" Monitor Red coaxials and Tube Amp's, my studio owning friend often came over to have a listen (second opinion) at his mixes, but he never really was able to do that as my system had a tendency to take him away from the "observer" position into a "listener" frame of mind, where he stopped criticising his mixes and the sound but got emotionally involved in the music..
If you want that kind of system, my repeated experience over several decades is that these kind of setups do not do this particulary well. On the other hand an ancient Tubed Radio (we call them quite depreciatingly "steam radio" in Germany), for all it's obvious objective flaws does it very well.
Something along the lines of my suggestions maybe with a gainclone Kit or a nice tube Amplifier kit can deliver that.
So, again, choose your poison.
Ciao T
Okay. Then lets ask some more precise questions:
1) Will you be using an AV Receiver or a 2-Channel integrated Amplifier or Pre/Power Combo?
2) Your Audiosource Subwoofer has a single 10" Driver. Do you really want to put all the load of handling all the low frequencies below around 80Hz onto that Sub AND add another active crossover?
The kind of approach doug20 advocates does have merrit.
I have implemented such a kind of system in a friends Studio in the late 90's, using a BSS digital crossover/EQ combo (heavily modified), gosh, that cost nearly 5000 UK Pound retail back then and that was before the UK joined the PIIGS and the pound became worthless, We used a number of Amp's and modified (Focal twetter instead of Vifa) PMC Monitors, the 15" Versions with the 15" bass extenders.
The complexity is great, however you can get practically perfect time alignment, more or less rulerflat in room response (we had to compromise in the end as we could not get the same "flat" response across a wide enough area). The system is excellent for most jobs in the studio.
It sounds immediately impressive, mixes done using this setup translate very well (if you know what you are doing), yet I do not really enjoy listening to music on this system (neither does my friend in London, but he did not wanted a system to enjoy music on). Another friend has a PMC/Bryson setup for home. It shares many of these traits.
Such systems do not really have an easy way of acquiring them in steps. BUT if they float your boat, it is worth digging deep and getting something like that. If you buy Amp's and digital crossover carefully 2nd Hand, you can probably do all of it for under 1,500 USD, plan time to wait for bargains.
On the other hand, when I still had my main setup in London with Tannoy 15" Monitor Red coaxials and Tube Amp's, my studio owning friend often came over to have a listen (second opinion) at his mixes, but he never really was able to do that as my system had a tendency to take him away from the "observer" position into a "listener" frame of mind, where he stopped criticising his mixes and the sound but got emotionally involved in the music..
If you want that kind of system, my repeated experience over several decades is that these kind of setups do not do this particulary well. On the other hand an ancient Tubed Radio (we call them quite depreciatingly "steam radio" in Germany), for all it's obvious objective flaws does it very well.
Something along the lines of my suggestions maybe with a gainclone Kit or a nice tube Amplifier kit can deliver that.
So, again, choose your poison.
Ciao T
Hi,
Now why would you say a thing like that?
Any AVR worth using has enough bass management to send the LFE (and Sub) signals to the mains, if you so choose. The Bass Management in the computer software Video Player I use in my Media PC does that.
So I send the LFE to the L/R mains (and the surround channels encoded as something virtual surround - not the dolby version - it works pretty well actually.
Ciao T
Now why would you say a thing like that?
Any AVR worth using has enough bass management to send the LFE (and Sub) signals to the mains, if you so choose. The Bass Management in the computer software Video Player I use in my Media PC does that.
So I send the LFE to the L/R mains (and the surround channels encoded as something virtual surround - not the dolby version - it works pretty well actually.
Ciao T
Thanks. I try to listen to everything everyone says and I will challenge them when I have questions or feel something isn't right. It helps me learn.
The integration with the sub was what I was thinking of. If Leo has a "small" setting on his amp he should be able to use that to match the sub, which I still have to look at the specs on that.
Ok answering the question: For now I will be using the Technics SA-GX530 receiver I have that is around 15 years old but never dies 🙂
As soon as I have money I will get a better receiver and I can get a dedicated amplifier if it makes things better but for now just receiver.
I know that the subwoofer I have is small compared to the rest but It makes enough shaking in the room as it is so for now I think I will keep it. Later on if I see it is getting overshadowed by the speakers I will get a better one.
Leo
As soon as I have money I will get a better receiver and I can get a dedicated amplifier if it makes things better but for now just receiver.
I know that the subwoofer I have is small compared to the rest but It makes enough shaking in the room as it is so for now I think I will keep it. Later on if I see it is getting overshadowed by the speakers I will get a better one.
Leo
- Status
- Not open for further replies.