I don't mean to intrude, but does anyone here actually study time delays re the human ear, etc, or do you just have an opinion? I suspect this opinion is based on older textbooks and some propaganda, supplied by companies like Klipsch, decades ago. For example there was a Dr. Ashley who taught this in an audio class at some university in Colorado, back in the 1970's. He was very big in the AES then, but he appears to have left the scene, now.
It is of historical interest that the first time delay experiment came in the 1930's due to Eleanor Powell's tap dancing and multiple horns in movie theaters, newly equipped with sound. I think 6-8 ms was considered important then. Then Paul Klipsch recommended 2 ms, even though the K-horn had more than that, overall. Then in 1968 or so, Richard Heyser took 2 ms to task, and went lower in his estimation. Then the 'Proceedings of the IEEE' produced a seminal tutorial article by Manfred Schroeder in 1975 or so, that gave us the latest finding, for the time, in monaural phase sensitivity. Now that is 35 years ago, newer and more interesting findings have been found since then.
It is of historical interest that the first time delay experiment came in the 1930's due to Eleanor Powell's tap dancing and multiple horns in movie theaters, newly equipped with sound. I think 6-8 ms was considered important then. Then Paul Klipsch recommended 2 ms, even though the K-horn had more than that, overall. Then in 1968 or so, Richard Heyser took 2 ms to task, and went lower in his estimation. Then the 'Proceedings of the IEEE' produced a seminal tutorial article by Manfred Schroeder in 1975 or so, that gave us the latest finding, for the time, in monaural phase sensitivity. Now that is 35 years ago, newer and more interesting findings have been found since then.
Fascinating discussion gentlemen. My compliments to you all for not degenerating, as cable discussions so often do. Please excuse this question if has been answered in more technical terms, as I won't pretend to understand everything that has been discussed. What is the safe limit in feet for 20ga. solid core? What is the safe limit in watts for 20ga.?
I buy my tires at Costco.
I buy my tires at Costco.
I don't believe you can find it online, as they are still selling nos copies of back issues. It comes in the 1981 set they offer, $20 plus shipping from
AUDIO AMATEUR BACK ISSUES
The article is for modding that particular amp, with some theory thrown in to explain why they undertook the mods that they did perform. I do know that these mods make a significant difference in the performance of the unit, and it was not subtle, this comes from first hand experience.
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Joined 2004
1ms delays are definitely audible.
We (and a good number of other living beings) are able to locate sound sources by their time and level related charecteristics.
A sound coming from, say the left side, arrives sooner and louder at the left ear and vice-versa, and the brain decodes.
It may actually require far less than 1ms for that.
It´s easy to experiment with a Digital Audio Workstation.
Listen to one audio clip, either stereo or mono. Paste it to track 1 and track 2 of the DAW. Both tracks will sound the same as the original clip, only louder. Now adjust track 2 to replay with 1ms delay time and the mix will sound like the well-known phaser effect, unmodulated.
Now, pan track 1 hard-left and track 2 hard-right. The phaser effect is gone, but the sound is still strange, and seems coming from the left of the stereo field, since track 2 is arriving 1ms later.
The differences are not subtle with music. I´ll try with sine-waves later and report back.
I can post a clip.
We (and a good number of other living beings) are able to locate sound sources by their time and level related charecteristics.
A sound coming from, say the left side, arrives sooner and louder at the left ear and vice-versa, and the brain decodes.
It may actually require far less than 1ms for that.
It´s easy to experiment with a Digital Audio Workstation.
Listen to one audio clip, either stereo or mono. Paste it to track 1 and track 2 of the DAW. Both tracks will sound the same as the original clip, only louder. Now adjust track 2 to replay with 1ms delay time and the mix will sound like the well-known phaser effect, unmodulated.
Now, pan track 1 hard-left and track 2 hard-right. The phaser effect is gone, but the sound is still strange, and seems coming from the left of the stereo field, since track 2 is arriving 1ms later.
The differences are not subtle with music. I´ll try with sine-waves later and report back.
I can post a clip.
Thanks, dude! That actually was the time constant for the energy dissipation normal to the Poynting vector, so I'm at a loss to see how that relates to signal. There's no such signal delay in any wire, as two minutes with an oscilloscope will demonstrate.
Oh God! Are you saying that we will need to use Stanless steel cable, Chromium Plated, platinium or gold cable?
LOL
Marc
yup i understand the effect you are talking about, as for some time i have messed about with sound engineering and home recording. however i disagree that you can hear 1ms delay, at least directly. the 'phasing' you refer to is the comb filtering which occurs across the entire BW when two identical signals are delayed and summed. This is what is audible, not the delay itself. since the distance moved by a signal delayed by 1ms is around 0.3m though, i have to say that it is probably perceivable, though maybe subconsciously more than anything. and since the head is about say .2m wide, it should be audible, even if not directly. however with 'pans' of less than that, where the longer path length is only maybe 10mm longer however, we are talking microseconds and i dont NOT believe that this is audible in anything like the same way, or we would all be able to pin point that troublesome mosquito in the dark, with eyes closed, and mentally in 3 dimensions, and dispatch the annoying thing!
Not me, I am all in favor of low cost solutions whenever possible, which is a huge part of diy in almost any field. I tried the cat5e wires because it was almost a zero dollar option for me, and I am fairly happy with the results. I am open to the idea that there may be better alternatives, but do like to keep things cost effective. If I had access to 20ga wire, I would definitely give that a try as well. Some commercial alarm/power supply/thermostat wiring is 18ga and available in solid and stranded configuration, and probably even have some on hand, but it is a little larger than the 20ga that was suggested earlier.
Nope, you'll have to find that yourself, I'm busy fielding phone calls from worried relatives. He talked about it repeatedly at AA, and there could even be some posts here about it, too. But basically, it's what I said- the effect that Hawksford predicts is normal to the Poynting vector, thus doesn't contribute to the signal. John is FAR more current on EM theory than I am, so it's not a point I'll argue theoretically- I'd just suggest that you hook up a 10 gauge conductor to the input of your scope, apply a square wave, and note the lack of a 1ms echo.
He talked about it repeatedly at AA, and there could even be some posts here about it, too. But basically, it's what I said- the effect that Hawksford predicts is normal to the Poynting vector, thus doesn't contribute to the signal. John is FAR more current on EM theory than I am, so it's not a point I'll argue theoretically- I'd just suggest that you hook up a 10 gauge conductor to the input of your scope, apply a square wave, and note the lack of a 1ms echo.
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Joined 2004
Yeah, like is such a short time delay between two identical sounds not perceived as a repetition because such does not occur in Nature and so the brain was not “biologically programmed” to discern it; or it simply doesn´t have the resolving power; or is the comb-filtering actually happening due to intermodulation distortions, and so on.
So, my point is that differences of 1ms or less are just perceived. How the brain interprets what it is detecting is a different subject, though interesting.
I think there must be more about it. Waveforms of that length or shorter will get slightly attenuated and the brain also uses that to locate the sounds. So I guess “primitive” sound sources with few harmonic content are tougher to locate. A triangle or square waveform ringtone from a cell phone in a movie scene still fools lots of people at the theatre, including me.
Then there´s the Haas effect. When a sound is coming from both stereo channels at equal volume and at the same time it will be perceived as coming from the center position. If one channel is slightly louder than the other, the sound will be perceived as off-center, although it´s coming from both channels at the same time.
Just by using the panoramic knob it´s possible to put a mono sound anywhere in the stereofield. Mixing engineers use it to better separate different instruments in the same octave range, for instance.
But the technique is still artificial as it lacks the time-related characteristics. To give a realistic off-center image, one of the channels needs to be delayed as well as its volume is turned down.
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Joined 2004
I do notice the time smearing in music when using solid-core cables thicker than 0.5mm. Bass notes sound slower than the mids and highs. The result is clumsier, compared when thinner gauges are used. With the latter, tempo gets increasingly tighter. And the same should happen with fundamentals and their harmonics.
If it´s caused by skin-effect, I don´t know.
What if it´s because a wider bandwidth just makes you focus more on the higher octaves and more evident overtones? Probably in a two-way it´s the tweeter reacting faster than the woofer. So if a full-ranger does not have the same time issues, the OP question is pertinent.
If it´s caused by skin-effect, I don´t know.
What if it´s because a wider bandwidth just makes you focus more on the higher octaves and more evident overtones? Probably in a two-way it´s the tweeter reacting faster than the woofer. So if a full-ranger does not have the same time issues, the OP question is pertinent.
Jneutron has been politely refuted and now ignored by Malcolm Hawksford. You should check out jneutron just for fun. Steve Eddy can give you all the info. Steve Eddy has about the same level of understanding of E/M theory as jneutron, except for the heavy math that I have also not seen jneutron do at any time, on line.
Jneutron works at Brookhaven supporting other scientists on projects. What he does, beyond winding coils, is a mystery to me, but I am sure he does other things.
Jneutron frequently cites Kittel, who wrote several books, but I think the one that he owns is: "Introduction to Solid State Physics' originally written in 1956. I hope to find this book, used, sometime. At the moment, I have the graduate version by Kittel: 'Quantum Theory of Solids' that often cites the original book, and it would be useful to have the earlier text.
Jneutron works at Brookhaven supporting other scientists on projects. What he does, beyond winding coils, is a mystery to me, but I am sure he does other things.
Jneutron frequently cites Kittel, who wrote several books, but I think the one that he owns is: "Introduction to Solid State Physics' originally written in 1956. I hope to find this book, used, sometime. At the moment, I have the graduate version by Kittel: 'Quantum Theory of Solids' that often cites the original book, and it would be useful to have the earlier text.
Hawksford never addressed any of jneutron's arguments. He simply said that he stood by his article and ran away.
It was a refutation in the most meaningless sense of the word, not the more meaningful sense of proving one wrong.
The man is a coward.
se
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That's a harsher word than I would use to characterize Hawksford or you, but if that's what you prefer, I won't argue with you. It's a pity that someone of his accomplishment and ability will put out questionable work and refuse to answer on-point criticisms by well-qualified peers, in essence folding his tent and going away (at least running away from his peers and seeking refuge among the superstitious villagers).
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