An 'intelligent' cable is not necessarily an expensive cable. For example, any wire over 20ga WILL have skin effect. It is possible to build a cable with multiple 20 ga wires, for example, rather cheaply, and be ahead of the pack. Of course, if hi fi for you is background music, then almost anything below 18 ga should be just fine.
Are you the one who asked this question over at AA? That got a bunch of responses pointing to high priced and exotic cables without any understanding of the question. It was all I could do to not post this answer, but I decided not to start the flame war.
As long as we are talking about a single driver speaker with sensitivity above 90dB/w/m, you are best off with the thinest wire that will carry the full dynamic load. The best all-around cable is 16ga zip cord. If the power loading can stand it, try a single pair of 24ga CAT5 wires. Both of these are super cheap options. Give them a try.
Bob
As long as we are talking about a single driver speaker with sensitivity above 90dB/w/m, you are best off with the thinest wire that will carry the full dynamic load. The best all-around cable is 16ga zip cord. If the power loading can stand it, try a single pair of 24ga CAT5 wires. Both of these are super cheap options. Give them a try.
Bob
Personally, I think that 20ga is the most appropriate, and paralleled 20ga is even better to improve the damping factor. Gauges thinner than 20ga do not have appreciable skin effect improvement, but are more resistive, perhaps too much so. It doesn't cost much to do a slightly better job than just some cheap, off the shelf, hardware store wire.
was that in reply to me?? If so then, im sorry i have no idea what AA is and thus no it wasnt.
Why is this? what purpose does a thinner wire serve, that could not be accomplished with a 'generous' gauge rather than one that is 'just ample' for the current considerations? that is assuming one can reliably calculate the maximum VAR load under transient conditions of the speaker.
I ask simply as a curiosity, as i will use a 10-15amp zip cord or 13 amp mains flex, or a plain single cable of no less than 1.5mm diameter, and for me Cat5 or ANY solid cable is simply not Hifi for ONE reason above all:
It buzzes and rattles
This goes for the solid-core-silver-cable-squad too
no offence meant
So, which of these sets sounds better between the 6, 9 or 12 wire sets? What are the differences you hear between them?
What equipment do you run them between?
Banned
Joined 2002
Something like this ?
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Dave,
After about 6' these act similar to transmission lines and no longer can be thought of as lumped elements (therefore would be a distributed circuit).
Josh
Edit: I would include the length at the terminal cup and internal wiring this would be considered a cascaded TL.
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Hello If you mind me, than not I did not asked this question. (what is AA?)
but, I do ask, because im looking for a nice wire for mine accualy "yours" speakers see here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...et-chilli-chang-metronome-ft-1600-mkii-3.html
If there is a way how to improve the performance of the speakers and it will not blow up my valet then I would like to do so...and cable might be a way
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Its been some time since the class on this... but basically your amplifier will not see the load that the speaker considered. For example on the amp side, it would see a load with both real and reactive parts and its real part could be almost anything, like 500ohms. (I can't give a real impedance because this all depends on the system, but basically the to the amplifier the speaker would appear to be a totally different type of load).
This imbalance of what the amplifier sees and what the load actually is creates standing waves.
All of this occurs because the time must be taken into consideration. Before we think of the idea that once the amplifier changes from low to high at 20kHz that it instantaneously happens at the speaker also (a lumped circuit). Well when the wires are so restrictive and the wire length is so long, it takes more than one wavelength for the signal to actually reach the speakers. Basically your speakers are lagging. This lagging is what will start standing waves.
This is why video cables must be 75ohm impedance. Edit: This type of impedance is a characteristic impedance and has to do with with wire length, position of wires (in coaxial, parallel plate, parallel wire, etc), etc. When people say 75ohm cables it doesn't not mean you can measure their resistance to be 75ohms, it just means that when the video source is connected to these it sees a 75ohm load. Or in this case, the wires are matched (impedance matching) so they they become negligible.
Hopefully this makes sense.
Josh
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Audio Asylum. A place known to allow high levels of disrespect for persons and intelligence.
Many ways including room treatments, cabinet stuffing and placement, source and amplification, your mood at the time, etcetera.
Nobody wants to spend more than they have to.
Don't count on it. Cable effect is negligible at best, yet some vendors are out to hurt your wallet and pad their own. 16ga. lamp cord has been shown to be a cost effective wire for many applications. If that's what you are using and you decide to take the plunge, don't be surprised if you come home and find yourself disappointed that the new cables don't improve things.
the most diplomatic expression of that particular sentiment I've yet seen; bravo, sir
methodologies for the last may be temporary, but have the advantage of portability
except for the proponents, purveyors and pimps for custom, exotic cables (an other accessories such as magic pebbles, shiny foil, etc. )
while typing this, a lyric for an old Cher song (yes, I am of that certain age) came to mind - "Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves" - oops, did I just step over a line?
I will have to say that over the years I have heard ( sometimes big ) differences between various signal and speaker level cables - and have even been seduced by the marketing and techno-babble. Of course some of that might well have been effected by aforementioned temporary mood enhancement protocols.
But you're not wrong to suggest the feeling of disappointment/shame that can result from the realization that the "major upgrade" that quickly disappears into the sonic stew of your system cost more than a 2 week cruise to the Caribbean that you told your sweetie would have to wait 'til next year.
wire will not help here. performance of the speakers and performance of the system ( or what you hear from the speakers) are two different things ( sterling wheel from F1 installed into ford focus would not make it F1)
Surprisingly nobody has asked, as usual, about amp used and the rest of the system.
( if people really want to help) why not to make the list what works best ( from electron's point of view) with popular FR drivers and amplifiers ( unfortunately I'm not an expert ) I have 167's in closed box with Cat5 as a part of 3way system and i can hear the difference bw adcom 535, pp el84, lm3875 gg
what quality of the system you want to improve?
Suffice it to say speaker, and other areas of cablery is a controversial area of sometimes the most unpleasant debate.
I think it fair to observe that it's a segment of the hobby that is among the most prone to a certain amount snake-oilsmanship.
You can read in various places very technical discussions favoring both the "spend" and "don't spend" position. It all can sound very reasonable to someone without expert knowledge.
Where does spin end and accurate representation begin? And does that point shift, depending, as someone above suggests, depending on how good the upstream equipment is?
I was worried about cables a couple years ago, and whether my lack of expensive ones would substantially negate the "upgrades" I made everywhere else in my system.
But I stumbled on an article arguing that with speaker cables of less than 50 feet, there was only modest audible improvement attainable over and above very inexpensive wire (like lamp cord, or 14 guage, or something.).
Could this be true? Helifino!
But I opted for very reasonably priced speakerwire from Blue Jeans cables.
If I'm missing something because of this choice, I'm eager to know it, but I'm still glad I switched to a prudent position from my prior assumption that I was going to have to spend several hundred, at least.
FWIW
Brenton
I think it fair to observe that it's a segment of the hobby that is among the most prone to a certain amount snake-oilsmanship.
You can read in various places very technical discussions favoring both the "spend" and "don't spend" position. It all can sound very reasonable to someone without expert knowledge.
Where does spin end and accurate representation begin? And does that point shift, depending, as someone above suggests, depending on how good the upstream equipment is?
I was worried about cables a couple years ago, and whether my lack of expensive ones would substantially negate the "upgrades" I made everywhere else in my system.
But I stumbled on an article arguing that with speaker cables of less than 50 feet, there was only modest audible improvement attainable over and above very inexpensive wire (like lamp cord, or 14 guage, or something.).
Could this be true? Helifino!
But I opted for very reasonably priced speakerwire from Blue Jeans cables.
If I'm missing something because of this choice, I'm eager to know it, but I'm still glad I switched to a prudent position from my prior assumption that I was going to have to spend several hundred, at least.
FWIW
Brenton
The reasoning behind the cat5e (24 ga) or cat6 (23 ga) is for what John Curl has previously mentioned, to reduce the skin effect. I first heard about it myself in the old 80s Audio Amateur Hafler Pooge articles. Higher frequencies only penetrate to a certain depth in the conductor, so conductor size is chosen to optimize conductivity of the range of frequencies that will be carried on the wire. If you do a google search for "skin effect" you should be able to find plenty of good info on the subject.
The different wire counts are for the different applications the wires would be used for. In a bi-amped situation the 6 wire set should be plenty for mid/high drivers, and the larger sets would be more suited for high current applications such as bass.
My reason for braiding is that it creates a "self shielding" effect, as well as making the wire bundles more manageable.
If you can get scraps or cutoffs of cat 5e or 6 for nothing, it is certainly worth a try. I haven't paid a cent for the cables themselves, just had to buy some ends for them. If you know an electrician or network cable installer, they will probably have plenty of short pieces you can use, same goes for most I.T. people in larger companies.
I have tested them so far on Infinity Kappa 8s, 9s, IRS 1Bs and IRS Betas. For amplifiers, I have tested Threshold S500e (oem), S350e (modified, recapped), S300 MKII (modified, recapped), S300 (oem), Hafler DH 200 and 220 (oem) and even a classD unit. My favorite so far for mid/highs is a highly modified DH200 (aka Pooge) that I am currently splitting into a pair of mono units.
Other equipment includes Threshold Fet10 preamp, Musical Concepts 2b preamp, Arcam CD73 (transport only), and a Dac60 modified. The equipment combination is pretty revealing, and even casual listeners have been able to identify the difference without having any knowledge or bias as to which cables were in use.
I thought that back in the 80s, they used to advise against stranded wire cables because of the electrical reaction between the non-insulated stranded conductors, not sure if this is no longer considered a concern.
jleaman's cables look pretty sharp too, nicely made
Dave,
I did a little calculation and found that for I was incorrect. For a cat5 cable (I didn't calculate propagation speed myself, I used something online) I found that the cable would have to be 100.8m long for it be considered a transmission line, this was taken for 100kHz signal, 20kHz signal would need to be 504m.... I was pretty far off... I thought I remembered running across this somewhere, guess not.
Well, at least you know that if you are running a speaker run of over 100m you should be careful.
Josh
I did a little calculation and found that for I was incorrect. For a cat5 cable (I didn't calculate propagation speed myself, I used something online) I found that the cable would have to be 100.8m long for it be considered a transmission line, this was taken for 100kHz signal, 20kHz signal would need to be 504m....
I was pretty far off... I thought I remembered running across this somewhere, guess not.Well, at least you know that if you are running a speaker run of over 100m you should be careful.
Josh
The reasoning behind the cat5e (24 ga) or cat6 (23 ga) is for what John Curl has previously mentioned, to reduce the skin effect. Higher frequencies only penetrate to a certain depth in the conductor, so conductor size is chosen to optimize conductivity of the range of frequencies that will be carried on the wire.
This is true yes. The trouble is that it is far more of a 'problem' for solid core cables, this is why there are many silver plated copper solid core cables out there, which i dont advocate btw.
Unfortunately, skin effect is easily combatted by the use of STRANDED wires, with as many strands as possible, which thus increases the surface area of the 'skin', which can be contacted thru solder or clamping, and hence lower the Z of the cable and increase transmission of HF audio.
the only problem i have with all this is that for all intensive purposes skin effect occurs in VHF and not in AF transmission BW's, which is why UHF tv cabling can be found with copper clad STEEL conductors which optimise the signal transmission thru the 'skin' and NOT thru the lossy Steel core...
'Shielding'? What? Within a high signal level transmission? Id be surprised if you picked up more than a few UW of EMI, and certainly not enough to be audibly reproduced by the speakers.......twisting and braiding would merely increase/affect the LC component of the cable, which could make it better, or for that matter, worse. Shielding like this should only be necessary if the amplifier is very sensitive and prone to EMI and parasitic oscillation. A better idea would be to get an amp that isnt one of those
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Quotes taken from April 1981 Audio Amateur article
Pooge-2 A Mod Symphony for your Hafler DH200 or other Power Amplifiers
by Walt Jung and Dick Marsh with special assistance from John Civitello, Rod Rees and Don Spangler
"for copper conductors, skin depth (inches) = 2.60/square root of f (hertz)"
"Plugging real world numbers into this expression enables a good feel for its implications regarding AC conduction. A #18 conductor has an 0,0403 inch diameter, and its skin depth at 20kHz will be approximately 0.020 inches (or 0.5mm). Thus, for this conductor diameter the skin depth extends approximately to the center, which is a highly desirable situation."
"Stranded wires of a similar composition are available, but are not desirable, as they do not allow a true Litz operation. Further, they allow inter-stranded rectification effects to develop, due to constriction resistance and imperfect ohmic contacts. This is most likely to occur at the surface where the high frequency energy is greatest and corrosion is more likely to occur."
Pooge-2 A Mod Symphony for your Hafler DH200 or other Power Amplifiers
by Walt Jung and Dick Marsh with special assistance from John Civitello, Rod Rees and Don Spangler
"for copper conductors, skin depth (inches) = 2.60/square root of f (hertz)"
"Plugging real world numbers into this expression enables a good feel for its implications regarding AC conduction. A #18 conductor has an 0,0403 inch diameter, and its skin depth at 20kHz will be approximately 0.020 inches (or 0.5mm). Thus, for this conductor diameter the skin depth extends approximately to the center, which is a highly desirable situation."
"Stranded wires of a similar composition are available, but are not desirable, as they do not allow a true Litz operation. Further, they allow inter-stranded rectification effects to develop, due to constriction resistance and imperfect ohmic contacts. This is most likely to occur at the surface where the high frequency energy is greatest and corrosion is more likely to occur."
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