And how would that help this forum
By separating out a small group of people that the current "powers that be" feel are simply a thorn in the side, an obstacle to the "girls just wanna have fun" perspective.
John, we never really got a chance to talk. I have always felt more comfortable in a one-on-one situation than in public.
Concerning the considerations to leave this and create an independent forum under your own strickt control, it sounds to me like you are more concerned about your own situation than the forum
Sorry if it sounds a bit rough
Another thing
There have been several suggestions about collective leaving and what I would call "fishing in public"
Im surpriced such can happen so openly without any notice
Thats not very good, really
btw, I do visit John Broskies blog, but understand very little
But I like his creativity
But at least its visual to anyone who want to see
But these closed secret organisations, I just hate them
Sorry if it sounds a bit rough
Another thing
There have been several suggestions about collective leaving and what I would call "fishing in public"
Im surpriced such can happen so openly without any notice
Thats not very good, really
btw, I do visit John Broskies blog, but understand very little
But I like his creativity
But at least its visual to anyone who want to see
But these closed secret organisations, I just hate them
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The idea was to mitigate complaints that commercial vendors were advertising their wares in the forum. You know by now that DIYaudio doesn't execute "hard and fast" rules. We encourage professionals to share their knowledge in the fora and at the same time we try to keep blatant advertising in the vendors forum. I think the best thing about DIYaudio is that there is a team of humans on the front end!
The measure of that success is obvious in the traffic and hosting requirements. This site, including the 'snake oil vendors' with their easy and accessible kits, have probably introduced more new enthusiasts to audio electronics than anything since the glory days of Scott, Dynaco and Heathkit. I certainly wouldn't lose sleep over it. Nothing prevents the kind of in depth design discussions bemoaned, they occur regularly.
Iain: my spidey senses must have been tingling.
Not my own situation strictly speaking. There's a small group of people who have learned a lot from each other through this forum. That's the situation I'm trying to preserve. If the forum becomes hostile to that group (and it is now, no doubt in my mind), then separation becomes advantageous to both sides. From the Wal-Mart perspective, some elitists will have left - and good riddance! I won't pretend to care about that perspective. And yet it is advantageous to those on that side of the fence. It's hardly the primary motivation though, as you correctly point out.
I fully understand that
But it sounds to me like its not the forum that really is the problem, but more like a few people you want out
And because the moderators deny to do what you want you blame them and the forum
And even use a word like hostile
It doesnt sound fair, and I dont understand you can get yourself to say that
The forum moderation seem to have a certain limit they dont want to cross
Unfortunately your wishes seem to be beyond the line they dont want to cross
But as usual, its impossible to make everyone happy
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I think the group who has learned a lot from this small group is bigger than Andy thinks (anyone who reads it (dont have to be participating).These people are the reason Im on this site. As entertaining as the speaker cable thread is, the amount of education there is very slim. I have only been on DIYAUDIO for a year so I dont have a lot of perspective, but I still believe its a great site, partly because of the wide scope ( Andy and Syn to Andree and Curly) but , for me, mostly because of what I learn from the real experts like Andy_C who not only have almost a life time of professional experiance and knowledege but enjoy sharing it with all. The first thing that hit me when I started browsing this site was that people were actualy designing there own electronics, not just copying and tweaking. And a big reason for this is the people like Andys group that have that knowledge, and share it. If this guiding light abandons us I worry that DIYAUDIO will change from the proper balance of physics/voodoo to a one sided phoolfest.
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In short
It seems quite simple
If you are not able to behave and debate in a civil manner you get caught in the forum rules
Rules that are very very human in every way
That ofcourse isnt easy
But in the end you can only blame yourself
To me it sound like childish whining, sorry
Stand up and be a man
Thats the only way I know of
But that I have learned as a working man, the hard way
Thats how men was made in the past
And why I fear fore the future
Real men with integrity are becoming a rarity
Too much whining and complaining
I just hate it
btw, I usually say let fall what cant stand on its own, it will fall apart in the end anyway
Rough, but it always end that way, no matter how much you try to help
It seems quite simple
If you are not able to behave and debate in a civil manner you get caught in the forum rules
Rules that are very very human in every way
That ofcourse isnt easy
But in the end you can only blame yourself
To me it sound like childish whining, sorry
Stand up and be a man
Thats the only way I know of
But that I have learned as a working man, the hard way
Thats how men was made in the past
And why I fear fore the future
Real men with integrity are becoming a rarity
Too much whining and complaining
I just hate it
btw, I usually say let fall what cant stand on its own, it will fall apart in the end anyway
Rough, but it always end that way, no matter how much you try to help
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I will, and that brought a very big smile to my face! I don't think you could have posted a more appropriate video if you tried syn08
andy_c said:
Andy personally I think it would be a tragedy for the most experienced and knowledgeable people here to leave, but how much of the Hostility you are referring to is for want of a better phrase "self inflicted" (and this is a genuine question, as I haven't read enough of the flame type threads to really know).
By self inflicted what I mean is there seem to be some people who cannot leave well enough alone and attack the beliefs (and that is what they are) of those who tend to the more esoteric and unproven ways of diy audio. I'm not saying this is necessarily malicious (and is probably usually an attempt to educate them). I just don't see how demanding proof of someones claims is beneficial or serves any purpose other than to upset them (as usually these types either cannot, or are not interested in providing any proof as they "know" what they hear, just as the persons questioning them "know" that it is bunkum (and note this is not my view necessarily on either side, I sit firmly on the fence, leaning towards the proof side).
How many of these "alternative" members have ventured into threads of a technical nature attacking the beliefs of the "objective types" posting in those threads (it may be happening and I may be completely unaware of this). Are they disrupting threads by saying that it doesn't matter what design principals the participants use it will sound awful unless they go out and buy a $500 mains lead, or put bybees on their speaker cables, or soak all of their resistors in the blood of a chicken over night before installing them in their circuit?
When ones belief system is attacked, usually it results in denial, and retaliation, if it happens repeatedly then how could one not expect that hostility would result?
It seems to me the best course of action is restraint. If someone posts something that you think is bunkum, then just ignore it! Unless those that believe in stuff that you think is bordering on delusional are coming in and disrupting the conversations of those interested in serious engineering, I really can't see how their presence in their own threads can be causing any problem...
Does anyone truely think Andrea's opamp thread is in someway threatening to the community at large? Or that the cable thread is anything more than just a battle of egos, or argument for arguments sake (with a bit of humor thrown in for good measure)? It (the cable thread) has gone so far that neither side could back down now without losing serious face (not that I read it for more than about a week as I quickly got bored of the endless head banging from both sides).
I'm ranting again, but to me it really does seem that the problem is one of intolerance to other peoples viewpoints and beliefs, rather than a problem with the moderation. Sometimes it is just simpler to agree to disagree and just get on with it
Yes it can get a bit grey when one of the mods is involved in the discussion (for instance SY in the cable thread) but in the time I was in there I didn't once see him put on his moderators cap. I think maybe occasionally one of the other mods should possibly pull him up publicly (and maybe they have), as although I never see him get into personal insults he can be quite cutting, something that doesn't bother me (as I have been known to dish it out too), but may others, and maybe this is something that some others have aluded to in this thread. Sorry SY I didn't mean to single you out, but occasionally I do think you get a bit carried away BTW I have a sneaking suspicion that you are more of a stirrer than in the B&W camp Anyway my tendency to want to bring balance is showing again, I'm very much a shades of grey type of person, and really find it frustrating when others seem only to be seeing black and white, but I will probably bow out of the discussion now, as otherwise I will just be getting into the vicious cycle of continually trying to convince others of something they don't want to be convinced of which is exactly what this post is trying to bring an end to.
Oh the irony.
Tony.
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There is a guidline that says if a mod is invested in a thread and moderation needs doing, he will point out the need, but recuse himself from any action. (general janitor jobs are OK)
dave
To always have to be careful not offend a popular pro "vendor", or any other popular member sometimes becomes somewhat close of a burdon
I know that if you do so you risk to get half the forum on your back and may be doomed to the end of days
It really doesnt matter whether you are right or wrong
But to conctantly have to "bite your tongue" is nothing new
And to some extend I find it quite natural to not cause any pointless fuzz
Somehow I do find it especially awkward when it concerns a vendor whom people want around because of the "benefits" he can give
In general, the special protecting of other peoples intelligense and skills, is kind of strange
Why would they need that anyway
Maybe to some degree because they are exstremely sensitive and protective of their stuff
On the other hand a forum like this cant survive without a certain level of knowledge
It seems a bit like a double edge sword
And maybe sometimes we put too much weight into this hobby
Or maybe just try a bit too hard
And maybe forget too easily its about having fun
The problems of the perfectionists
But I certainly wont ever blame the moderators fore any of that
I know that if you do so you risk to get half the forum on your back and may be doomed to the end of days
It really doesnt matter whether you are right or wrong
But to conctantly have to "bite your tongue" is nothing new
And to some extend I find it quite natural to not cause any pointless fuzz
Somehow I do find it especially awkward when it concerns a vendor whom people want around because of the "benefits" he can give
In general, the special protecting of other peoples intelligense and skills, is kind of strange
Why would they need that anyway
Maybe to some degree because they are exstremely sensitive and protective of their stuff
On the other hand a forum like this cant survive without a certain level of knowledge
It seems a bit like a double edge sword
And maybe sometimes we put too much weight into this hobby
Or maybe just try a bit too hard
And maybe forget too easily its about having fun
The problems of the perfectionists
But I certainly wont ever blame the moderators fore any of that
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For me the backhanded comments made against subjective statements by some, is really what keeps tension high here and results in long winded and flame induced threads, like the "cable" thread. If respect for ones point of view were extended to the subjective crowd that is given to the scientific crowd, it would ease a great many issues here.
It seems that there are a few that will go out of their way to make derogatory comments in order to "stir the pot". Maybe they feel in their heads that they are doing the novice or uneducated DIY audio person a favor to voice their inflammatory comments. I don't believe it for a minute though.
Take the Tweaker's Forum. Many people that do not agree with subjective listening made a point to create tension and argumentative comments at every turn. Bu these same people sling innuendo at will in the main forums as if they are the keeper of all knowledge.
A good debate is always a welcomed source of interest to all that take their hobby seriously. It creates an opportunity to see another side to the same story, but the total dismissal by some of anything objective as "bias", "delusional nonsense" or what ever term that you would like to call them, is just an open invitation to personal attacks and flame wars.
Why can not both parties exist and their opinions be treated as such. Experiences are worth a great deal more in life than just text book theory, as most great discoveries have come about through experiences, not the theory. The theory comes about from trying to find out why these things happen and/or exist. Dismissal of concepts that some do not agree with nor understand, is a sure sign of arrogance and self righteousness in my mind. As everything in life there is always two sides to every story and the truth is somewhere in the middle. If this middle ground could be better explored, maybe there would be a great deal more constructive dialog and less banter that will never find an end or a solution.
It seems that there are a few that will go out of their way to make derogatory comments in order to "stir the pot". Maybe they feel in their heads that they are doing the novice or uneducated DIY audio person a favor to voice their inflammatory comments. I don't believe it for a minute though.
Take the Tweaker's Forum. Many people that do not agree with subjective listening made a point to create tension and argumentative comments at every turn. Bu these same people sling innuendo at will in the main forums as if they are the keeper of all knowledge.
A good debate is always a welcomed source of interest to all that take their hobby seriously. It creates an opportunity to see another side to the same story, but the total dismissal by some of anything objective as "bias", "delusional nonsense" or what ever term that you would like to call them, is just an open invitation to personal attacks and flame wars.
Why can not both parties exist and their opinions be treated as such. Experiences are worth a great deal more in life than just text book theory, as most great discoveries have come about through experiences, not the theory. The theory comes about from trying to find out why these things happen and/or exist. Dismissal of concepts that some do not agree with nor understand, is a sure sign of arrogance and self righteousness in my mind. As everything in life there is always two sides to every story and the truth is somewhere in the middle. If this middle ground could be better explored, maybe there would be a great deal more constructive dialog and less banter that will never find an end or a solution.
Particularly in a thread about moderation, "reactionary clique" are just very rude and pejorative words towards those who have a kind of thought prefering observable facts and best objective measurements.
The "revolutionary" approach, initiated more than thirty years, becomes a bit out of breath by now to my eyes, the "old school" having brought products having both excellent specs and great success in the listening sessions (see the threads about recent ICs).
Can anybody design anything reliable in electronics without general knowledge such as found in books like the Horowitz and Hill's one ? Even the most subjective engineers agree that Douglas Self has unveiled numerous inexplorated facts with incontestable proofs .
Once you master electronics, you are free to design according to your preferences of thought, and your products may, or may not, encounter agreement with other people. Once the philosophy of a designer is made clear, be it objective or subjective, you have no reason to contest it, as you can't do nothing else than admit it as a fact. Then, you leave more in peace without reactivating constant little wars between two camps, not so in opposition than one may think.
.
I'll make an exception and tell you why: because it may put an equal sign between a lifetime of working as a linear circuit designer, 25 years of education, 25 years of peer recognized R&D, 25 years of working e.g. for NASA, etc... and your experience as a high end audio salesman.
One may spend time on advanced DAC design and evaluation, sharing his results, only to eventually find out, straight from a sacred cow mouth, that actually the original Edison drum sounds better than a CD. How rewarding and encouraging.
If you were an early follower of Doug Self, you would find that he argued against some of his: "inexplorated facts with incontestable proofs" and we had a lot of fun with LTE's in both 'Wireless World' and 'Hi Fi News' back in 1984-1986. Dr. Lipshitz himself broke in and said to me, in print that: 'my math was OK, my measurements were OK, BUT it didn't matter, because it was inaudible in a double-blind test. Doug Self, at the time, thought that all caps were virtually perfect and interchangable. Check it out, if you don't believe me. Now, you would think that he 'discovered' capacitor distortion, although I first published my cap distortion measurements back in 1978, 6 years before I ever heard of him. And so it goes.
Syn08, you impugn me, because of my comment about Edison cylinders, and early acoustical recordings. It is not because these recordings were PERFECT, but that they retained some quality to the speech and music that was better than most modern recordings. I didn't say this initially, Dick Sequerra told it to me, and he gave his reasons, some of which, I have tried to convey on this website. Perhaps you cannot hear this difference, or perhaps you have never tried to listen for it. That does not give you the right to be 'up in arms' decrying it.
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