Pedja: Sorry now we will all stick to the subject 
When we first made the XO clock, nobody was using a real comparator, but rather a high speed CMOS gate as a comparator for waveshaping. At that time we also used a CMOS gate, however to stay ahead of competition we focused on the power regulator to give the CMOS gate optimal working conditions.
In the beginning of this year, some of our competitors had worked up to us, even at a much higher price, i will admit there were one better clock on the market in the end, so we wanted to use all our knowledge to create a new clock that would be again ahead of even the expensive clocks.
The result was the XO 3.
And the 'real' comparator for waveshaping was one of several methods to improve the performance beyond competitions.
Other newcoming improvements was the ultra low noise power regulator, the fast startup, 3V / 5V setting to allow trouble free installation, and a number of support functions. And the all important 4 layer circuit board, that will shield the sensitive oscillator from digital noise inside the CD or DVD player. All put together this gives us the high performance. Not just one circuit of the schematic.
So from this we could actually publish the schematic, since this clock would be too complicated for anyone to copy. (We can see which of our products were actually copied in the past, and it was only the simplest products, so this suggests there is a limit to how complicated circuits the 'kitchen table producers' can copy) Examples are the AD825 modules. (And now AD8065 / 8066).
Nobody copied the ZAPfilter, even if the schematics are published on our website, and this product is much more valuable both technically and commercially.
But the problem of publishing the LClock XO3 schematic is that somebody will take a part of the XO3, and sell it as: same as XO3, but snce they only copy part of the innovative solutions, the performance will be demised. Thus casting shadows on the XO3. And this we see no reason for. When we produce the XO3 only, we are always in control to ensure the highest quality. And every unit is adjusted using the GPS sattelite net as a time reference.
So an XO3 keeps it's frequency within 1 ppm (parts per million). That is only 17 Hz of tolerance for a 16,9344 MHz LClock XO3.
Happy DIY'ing and all have a nice weekend
When we first made the XO clock, nobody was using a real comparator, but rather a high speed CMOS gate as a comparator for waveshaping. At that time we also used a CMOS gate, however to stay ahead of competition we focused on the power regulator to give the CMOS gate optimal working conditions.
In the beginning of this year, some of our competitors had worked up to us, even at a much higher price, i will admit there were one better clock on the market in the end, so we wanted to use all our knowledge to create a new clock that would be again ahead of even the expensive clocks.
The result was the XO 3.
And the 'real' comparator for waveshaping was one of several methods to improve the performance beyond competitions.
Other newcoming improvements was the ultra low noise power regulator, the fast startup, 3V / 5V setting to allow trouble free installation, and a number of support functions. And the all important 4 layer circuit board, that will shield the sensitive oscillator from digital noise inside the CD or DVD player. All put together this gives us the high performance. Not just one circuit of the schematic.
So from this we could actually publish the schematic, since this clock would be too complicated for anyone to copy. (We can see which of our products were actually copied in the past, and it was only the simplest products, so this suggests there is a limit to how complicated circuits the 'kitchen table producers' can copy) Examples are the AD825 modules. (And now AD8065 / 8066).
Nobody copied the ZAPfilter, even if the schematics are published on our website, and this product is much more valuable both technically and commercially.
But the problem of publishing the LClock XO3 schematic is that somebody will take a part of the XO3, and sell it as: same as XO3, but snce they only copy part of the innovative solutions, the performance will be demised. Thus casting shadows on the XO3. And this we see no reason for. When we produce the XO3 only, we are always in control to ensure the highest quality. And every unit is adjusted using the GPS sattelite net as a time reference.
So an XO3 keeps it's frequency within 1 ppm (parts per million). That is only 17 Hz of tolerance for a 16,9344 MHz LClock XO3.
Happy DIY'ing and all have a nice weekend
Hi Lars,
Thanks for the story on the ‘why of the X03’. The behavior and quality of the product depends on the synergy between the, quality of the components used, the PCB-design. The electronic schema, which we often refer to as the design, provides cues about what components and PCB-design to use, however it requires a lot of insight about the design decisions taken by the design team. So I don’t see from that perspective, there are IMO no risks of publishing your design. The fact that the ZAPfilter design is on your web-site and hasn’t been copied supports that statement.
Assume you publish your clock design, and it is compared with other designs, then it should not be used to restart the ‘what is the best clock’ debate or ‘who is the expert in clocks’. But we should focus on the aspects of the design that are similar and/or different and associate performance aspects to them. In that way this forum learns what makes a good design and what not, and in that way inspire the design of the next generation clocks.
Who has ideas about the next steps, when Lars decides to publish his design. Lets think about what is in for him when he publishes the design.
These are my two cents.
Henk
PS. I am aware we have left the track of the topic. Sorry Radja.
Thanks for the story on the ‘why of the X03’. The behavior and quality of the product depends on the synergy between the, quality of the components used, the PCB-design. The electronic schema, which we often refer to as the design, provides cues about what components and PCB-design to use, however it requires a lot of insight about the design decisions taken by the design team. So I don’t see from that perspective, there are IMO no risks of publishing your design. The fact that the ZAPfilter design is on your web-site and hasn’t been copied supports that statement.
Assume you publish your clock design, and it is compared with other designs, then it should not be used to restart the ‘what is the best clock’ debate or ‘who is the expert in clocks’. But we should focus on the aspects of the design that are similar and/or different and associate performance aspects to them. In that way this forum learns what makes a good design and what not, and in that way inspire the design of the next generation clocks.
Who has ideas about the next steps, when Lars decides to publish his design. Lets think about what is in for him when he publishes the design.
These are my two cents.
Henk
PS. I am aware we have left the track of the topic. Sorry Radja.
Lars Clausen said:
So an XO3 keeps it's frequency within 1 ppm (parts per million). That is only 17 Hz of tolerance for a 16,9344 MHz LClock XO3.
Happy DIY'ing and all have a nice weekend
Hi Lars
How important in your ears is the absolute frequency (and do you have zere temperature sensitivity ?)
Weekend will begin, yes.....
regards
Hi Mr. Clausen,
I'm a proud owner of the XO.
I bought it around 4 years ago, and installed it on my new (back then) Yamaha CDX-593, which I bought to use as a transport for my AA DDE v.3.0 Dac.
Back then it cost me around $120 US.
Curiously, you had a "high-quality" PSU (with a little transformer)for the clock, charged some good money for it and it was unregulated.
Of course I didn't buy it, instead I made a 12v regulated PSU.
My Yamaha with XO beats everything I've tried as a transport.
Unmodified CDPs/transports, of course, and some very expensive.
What bugs me is that the LC-Audio clocks these days are more than double the price of 4 years ago.
This is a DIY place, and we like to buy cheap.
I have two more CD players at home (a Philips CD650 and a Marantz CD52SE) for which I've been thinking of installing some clocks.
For me, it would be overkill (and expensive) to install expensive LC-Audio clocks here.
I mean, the Philips cost me 40 Euros!
So, the logical move was to contact Guido Tent.
His XO costs 27 Euros, and he even gives you a document with a schematic for making a good PSU for it.
I ordered two XO clocks from Guido.
Elso Kwak also gives the schematic of his clock for anyone who contacts him.
Will these guys ever get rich with these?
To me, it's not even a question of what's the best clock.
But let me tell you that the XO3 from Guido Tent even makes SPDIF reclocking, has a dedicated PSU, and it costs around 130 Euros.
I recommended it to a friend, he ordered it and I'll install it for him.
Sorry, but I can't recommend a very expensive clock, even if you can argue that it's the best.
I'm a proud owner of the XO.
I bought it around 4 years ago, and installed it on my new (back then) Yamaha CDX-593, which I bought to use as a transport for my AA DDE v.3.0 Dac.
Back then it cost me around $120 US.
Curiously, you had a "high-quality" PSU (with a little transformer)for the clock, charged some good money for it and it was unregulated.
Of course I didn't buy it, instead I made a 12v regulated PSU.
My Yamaha with XO beats everything I've tried as a transport.
Unmodified CDPs/transports, of course, and some very expensive.
What bugs me is that the LC-Audio clocks these days are more than double the price of 4 years ago.
This is a DIY place, and we like to buy cheap.
I have two more CD players at home (a Philips CD650 and a Marantz CD52SE) for which I've been thinking of installing some clocks.
For me, it would be overkill (and expensive) to install expensive LC-Audio clocks here.
I mean, the Philips cost me 40 Euros!
So, the logical move was to contact Guido Tent.
His XO costs 27 Euros, and he even gives you a document with a schematic for making a good PSU for it.
I ordered two XO clocks from Guido.
Elso Kwak also gives the schematic of his clock for anyone who contacts him.
Will these guys ever get rich with these?
To me, it's not even a question of what's the best clock.
But let me tell you that the XO3 from Guido Tent even makes SPDIF reclocking, has a dedicated PSU, and it costs around 130 Euros.
I recommended it to a friend, he ordered it and I'll install it for him.
Sorry, but I can't recommend a very expensive clock, even if you can argue that it's the best.
Lars,Lars Clausen said:
I don’t know what the others did at that time and I actually don’t know when was the first time you made a XO clock (and this is surely not the topic), but in the summer 2002 when I first met the Kwak Clock the comparator was inside. Short look back tells Elso actually started to use the comparator in 2001. I think the small search through this Forum’s archives will show some Kwak Clocks made during 2001 obviously comprising comparator. Below is the schematic of the Kwak Clock 2 (spring 2001).
So, if you did not use the comparator before your XO3 (which is if I am not mistaken a few months old), you might easily understand why people easily believe that you copied someone else’s work.
Btw, I honestly suggest you to refrain from the tone of the second half of your last post since at this place such kind of advertising will surely produce the effect that will be opposite than one you would like.
Pedja
Attachments
Clocks, I hear them ticking!
Hi Guys,
For the DIY, the simplicity of the clock circuit is the most important thing! The accuracy is just as important as the simplicity and second best thing (for me it is)is the price of it.
I've used the Tend clock (€27,= vertion) the LC Audio XO2 and the KC-7. The last one I've build myself with a nice PCB from Elso.
The Tent one, I've lent from a friend in Leiden (Holland), (he wanted to find out if the KC-7 was as good or better than the Tent) was just very simple and O.K! The XO2 LC Audio, came from st. Pete Florida, again a good friend of mine.
My DIY forum members, this is the result.
I'll start with the less good one.
The LC Audio XO2. this one is so nice build that you'll be sure it'll be the best one of all, but the opposite is the case.
The Tent clock is a very simple and good clock (goed zo Guido)!
The best one was, and still is, the KC-7 due to it's building guide, simplicity, accuracy and price. The feedback you get from Elso is just tremendus, (Ga zo door) the KC-7 can be bought in various version. The DIY one with all parts included. The PCB only the Parts only and the complete (build and tested) version.
And that's what I call service. If you are a Pro or a newbee, the KC-7 can be build and installed in your CDP,Transport or DAC.
Guido, I'll order the €130,= version next year and report to all DIYAudio.com members. To bad I didn't have it to compare with the other ones, I'm unemployed at the moment and don't have the $$$$ to buy one. But I'm sure it's a good one!
I know that my taste is different than other audio lovers, but still I didn't do the test on my own (blind test) there were 8 guys (incl. 4 musicians)that came to listen and we all found the KC-7 the best one.
The equipment used was:
TRANSPORTS
Wadia 8
Wadia 15
TEAC P-700*
CD-Players
TEAC VRDS 7*
TEAC VRDS 25X*
DAC
WADIA 15
KRELL SBP-64X
PROCEED PDP2*
Speakers
Martin Logan Sequel II*
Martin Logan CLS I*
Audiostatics ES-100* and 300RS*
JMR Offrande
JMR Grand Opera
All Cables (DIY)*
Amps
Plinius SA-102, 8200P
Pre amps
Plinius M16
Spectral DMC-12
Audio Synthesis Ultimate PASSION (Passive pre)
This is all I wanted to tell you guy's about my finding. Please make sure you buy the one that's worth every penny!
All the product marked with a * are mine.
Best regards,
Audiofanatic
P.S. most products are property of the Dutch importer Die-is't! www.diest-audio.com Thanks for your time and trust in me Han van Diest!
Hi Guys,
For the DIY, the simplicity of the clock circuit is the most important thing! The accuracy is just as important as the simplicity and second best thing (for me it is)is the price of it.
I've used the Tend clock (€27,= vertion) the LC Audio XO2 and the KC-7. The last one I've build myself with a nice PCB from Elso.
The Tent one, I've lent from a friend in Leiden (Holland), (he wanted to find out if the KC-7 was as good or better than the Tent) was just very simple and O.K! The XO2 LC Audio, came from st. Pete Florida, again a good friend of mine.
My DIY forum members, this is the result.
I'll start with the less good one.
The LC Audio XO2. this one is so nice build that you'll be sure it'll be the best one of all, but the opposite is the case.
The Tent clock is a very simple and good clock (goed zo Guido)!
The best one was, and still is, the KC-7 due to it's building guide, simplicity, accuracy and price. The feedback you get from Elso is just tremendus, (Ga zo door) the KC-7 can be bought in various version. The DIY one with all parts included. The PCB only the Parts only and the complete (build and tested) version.
And that's what I call service. If you are a Pro or a newbee, the KC-7 can be build and installed in your CDP,Transport or DAC.
Guido, I'll order the €130,= version next year and report to all DIYAudio.com members. To bad I didn't have it to compare with the other ones, I'm unemployed at the moment and don't have the $$$$ to buy one.
But I'm sure it's a good one!I know that my taste is different than other audio lovers, but still I didn't do the test on my own (blind test) there were 8 guys (incl. 4 musicians)that came to listen and we all found the KC-7 the best one.
The equipment used was:
TRANSPORTS
Wadia 8
Wadia 15
TEAC P-700*
CD-Players
TEAC VRDS 7*
TEAC VRDS 25X*
DAC
WADIA 15
KRELL SBP-64X
PROCEED PDP2*
Speakers
Martin Logan Sequel II*
Martin Logan CLS I*
Audiostatics ES-100* and 300RS*
JMR Offrande
JMR Grand Opera
All Cables (DIY)*
Amps
Plinius SA-102, 8200P
Pre amps
Plinius M16
Spectral DMC-12
Audio Synthesis Ultimate PASSION (Passive pre)
This is all I wanted to tell you guy's about my finding. Please make sure you buy the one that's worth every penny!
All the product marked with a * are mine.
Best regards,
Audiofanatic
P.S. most products are property of the Dutch importer Die-is't! www.diest-audio.com Thanks for your time and trust in me Han van Diest!
The answer is..........42!
Not really, but:
First, the clock has to be able to fit in one's budget.
Second, it has to have low jitter.
Third, it won't have low jitter if you power it with a noisy supply. Ditto for the circuitry that squares it up. Won't matter how good your oscillator is if you stick a lousy PSU on it.
Comparators have been used in telecom clocks for many years. Maybe Lars just got lucky.
Maybe not.
No more design hints for for El-Cheapo Audio.
Jocko
Not really, but:
First, the clock has to be able to fit in one's budget.
Second, it has to have low jitter.
Third, it won't have low jitter if you power it with a noisy supply. Ditto for the circuitry that squares it up. Won't matter how good your oscillator is if you stick a lousy PSU on it.
Comparators have been used in telecom clocks for many years. Maybe Lars just got lucky.
Maybe not.
No more design hints for for El-Cheapo Audio.
Jocko
I wonder...
...why Lars opened a thread on ChipAmps forum with some mods on a cheap DVD.
Those mods included the XO3 clock!
Much more expensive than the crappy DVD!
BTW, a friend of mine bought two AD825 modules from LC-Audio to put on his Audio Alchemy DDE v3.0 dac, which I had modded with OPA627s and just sounds fantastic, as mine does.
The guy just wanted to see if there are better op-amps, as LC-Audio raves their AD825 modules.
Curiously (not for me) the sound quality is clearly inferior.
...why Lars opened a thread on ChipAmps forum with some mods on a cheap DVD.
Those mods included the XO3 clock!
Much more expensive than the crappy DVD!
BTW, a friend of mine bought two AD825 modules from LC-Audio to put on his Audio Alchemy DDE v3.0 dac, which I had modded with OPA627s and just sounds fantastic, as mine does.
The guy just wanted to see if there are better op-amps, as LC-Audio raves their AD825 modules.
Curiously (not for me) the sound quality is clearly inferior.
Jocko: i don't know what you have against my person or my company, but it seems youtake every shot you can at us.
Since none of your arguments so far are anything else than mud shrowing, i don't really care to comment. Other than say that i work in one of the few clock producing teams in here that spend money for advertising.
Not as you claim use free advertising. The DVD thread is not really advertising, but intended to start a thread with some audio related content - more interesting than this thread that has clearly turned into pure mudthrowing thanks to you and a few others.
I think it's more fun to discuss Audio related stuff.
Since none of your arguments so far are anything else than mud shrowing, i don't really care to comment. Other than say that i work in one of the few clock producing teams in here that spend money for advertising.
Not as you claim use free advertising. The DVD thread is not really advertising, but intended to start a thread with some audio related content - more interesting than this thread that has clearly turned into pure mudthrowing thanks to you and a few others.
I think it's more fun to discuss Audio related stuff.
It is. Keep your chin up.
It seems that you provoked some emotions around your products and the socalled advertising of them. Maybe there are cultural differences involved which make people react the way they do. When I read your posts I can understand some of the emotions but not the hostile character of some of them. My guess is that jealousy is a factor to consider...
Please try not to accuse anyone of copying your stuff in public as it will turn against you, whether the accusation is true or untrue.
BTW I am not related to nor a customer of LCAudio.
Just relax!
Hi Mr. Clausen,
I just want to say, relax, take it easy, life is hard enough to deal with, just be glad to be self employed.
I lost my job a month ago, I'm sending letters every day hoping to find a job, "any Job"!
Still, I'm laughing, even though it hurts to be selling my audio gear for half the price I'v payed for just to pay my bills and to be shure we have $$ to eat. So please be calm and just go with the flow.
Enjoy every single day you have and don't take it to personal.
Have a nice day and all the best!
Best regards,
Audiofanatic
Lars Clausen said:
Hi Mr. Clausen,
I just want to say, relax, take it easy, life is hard enough to deal with, just be glad to be self employed.
I lost my job a month ago, I'm sending letters every day hoping to find a job, "any Job"!
Still, I'm laughing, even though it hurts to be selling my audio gear for half the price I'v payed for just to pay my bills and to be shure we have $$ to eat. So please be calm and just go with the flow.
Enjoy every single day you have and don't take it to personal.
Have a nice day and all the best!
Best regards,
Audiofanatic
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