The reason for mentioning Richard Vandersteen's commitment to objective performance wasn't to "prove" the very technical assertions made.
Nor was the mention of Marketing intended to "dis-prove".
Instead it's to suggest that as a piece of marketing you don't expect the sort of detailed proof that you are requiring, and
That Richard Vandersteen (and Co.) isn't the sort of person/organization to simply make sh!t up.
In other words:
Chances are Vandersteen has in fact made objective measurements that at least show some sort of change (for each condition mentioned), and
A simple "faq" section on the website isn't going to contain that information (..any more than a real technical paper's abstract is going to have all the information of the technical paper.)
Of course none of this means or even suggests that the technical claims that were made or theorized were in fact correct. Even having an objective measurable change doesn't mean that it will be correlated (as objectively as possible) with a subjective response on an average listener.
As far as the subjective assessments were concerned though, it is interesting to note that in Vandersteen's rounds of "tests" - that it was NOT done to determine if bi-wiring made a difference.
Instead the focus was on:
"Why does bi-amplification make a difference?"
It's only through several tests that Vandersteen came to the conclusion that it was the result of bi-wiring under the very specific condition of a physically separated cross-over - with physically separated binding posts.
-and, it's only at that point where they start making technical claims that start "raising eyebrows" of incredulity and cynicism.
Last edited:
Perhaps he performed a round of "tests" to prove to himself that bi-amplifying does make a difference.
BTW, I've certainly heard a difference with bi-amplification (including with identical amplifiers and level matching) - and I'd doubt as an objective measure that there was anything substantial to suggest any difference in sound.
The only reason to provide an accompanying measurement is to prove the assertion being made, NOT that there was a difference.
My guess is that any measurable difference was nearly imperceptible. (..same thing for measuring differences in capacitors for differences other than capacititance and resistance).
So it comes off looking like: "a HA! I've GOT PROOF!" ..and everyone looking at is saying: "proof of what?.. a barely imperceptible change in a squiggly line?"
Honestly, that's exactly the sort of response I have to the notion of capacitors sounding different - and yet people designing them have that sort of proof and usually get that sort of response.
My apologies for the second part of my last post- there are real reasons why biamplification might make a difference in some situations. Heck, I do it myself. I thought the quote was "bi-wiring," where, let's face it, the claim is extraordinary and the evidence is nonexistent. I'm getting old and sloppy.
My apologies for the second part of my last post- there are real reasons why biamplification might make a difference in some situations. Heck, I do it myself. I thought the quote was "bi-wiring," where, let's face it, the claim is extraordinary and the evidence is nonexistent. I'm getting old and sloppy.
I thought you meant that the underlying "bi-amping" wasn't proven, so the whole thing was suspect.
Still, as a point of rational skepticism - that's not an un-reasonable question.
Vandersteen - California.
Strathearn - Norther Ireland.
..don't think so.
SoundStage! Interviews Richard Vandersteen of Vandersteen Audio Part One (08/1998)
You know AC means Alternating Current right?
The voltage produced at the output of the amplifier causes current flow in the voice coils (dynamic driver assumed) of your speaker drivers. The prevailing logic for bi-wiring (last time I checked) was that it was done to separate the currents (HF & LF) from each other so that the larger amplitude bass currents (LF) didn't interact with the smaller, delicate and fragile midrange/high frequency currents (HF).
Since most crossovers present a high impedance out of band this reduces the out of band currents flowing in the cables limiting them to carrying currents in a narrower frequency range.
I couldn't hear it. If someone can; great. As long as we all enjoy this stuff it's all good.
Generic George,
Re: Your comment to me. There is an old saying - A fool and his money are soon parted.
You can't protect fools from being fools. There are several Magic products on the market that don't even connect to your system. Just place these Magic Rock or Magic Bells or Magic Stick or Magic Boxes in your room ... and guess what .... MAGIC! Your system will magically sound better because you placed some small rock in the corners of your room.
You can advise a fool, but if they want to spend their money, they are going to spend it. In another discussion about speaker wire, some one posted a link to a pair of 8 foot speaker wires that were on sale for ...that's right ...ON SALE... for US$25,000 for the pair. Now if you are a billionaire with a Million Dollars into your system, then go ahead and waste your money on $25,000 speaker wire. Put some of that cash back into the economy. But if you don't have a Million Dollar system, then don't waste your money. There is no Magic speaker cable worth $25,000 unless perhaps they throw a new car in on the deal.
And yet ... a fool and his money are soon parted ... if you have Magic Rocks or Magic Speaker Cables and you are happy, then you are happy, case closed.
I think the Speaker Wire Lifts are probably the most ridiculous. So I get these magic exotic wood speaker wire lift to lift the speaker up off of my .... WOODEN FLOORS? Maybe if you have Steel floors, there might be some merit to this, though still doubtful.
And why LIFT the speaker wires, why not just run them in some conduit or raceway along the walls. That keeps them up off the evil floors.
Why not just build a simple basic Trough Lift out of lumberyard wood and glue (no nails or screws). You could take your wife out to dinner for a month on the money you saved. Or better yet, leave the speaker wires on the wooden floors and take your wife out to dinner for two months.
If Magic makes you happy, who am I to deny anyone that happiness. If I could scheme up some Magical product and come up with pseudo-science and a good spiel to sell it, I would be sorely tempted. If fools are going to give their money away, they might as well give it away to me.
Say ... I've got some Magic Toothpicks made from special exotic wood, if you have one of these in your mouth when you listen to music, the resonance of the exotic wood in your head will make the music sound better. Only $100 for a box of 100. Any takers?
Anyone? ... Magic Exotic Wood Acoustically Enhancing Toothpicks? $100 per box?
Steve/bluewizard.
Re: Your comment to me. There is an old saying - A fool and his money are soon parted.
You can't protect fools from being fools. There are several Magic products on the market that don't even connect to your system. Just place these Magic Rock or Magic Bells or Magic Stick or Magic Boxes in your room ... and guess what .... MAGIC! Your system will magically sound better because you placed some small rock in the corners of your room.
You can advise a fool, but if they want to spend their money, they are going to spend it. In another discussion about speaker wire, some one posted a link to a pair of 8 foot speaker wires that were on sale for ...that's right ...ON SALE... for US$25,000 for the pair. Now if you are a billionaire with a Million Dollars into your system, then go ahead and waste your money on $25,000 speaker wire. Put some of that cash back into the economy. But if you don't have a Million Dollar system, then don't waste your money. There is no Magic speaker cable worth $25,000 unless perhaps they throw a new car in on the deal.
And yet ... a fool and his money are soon parted ... if you have Magic Rocks or Magic Speaker Cables and you are happy, then you are happy, case closed.
I think the Speaker Wire Lifts are probably the most ridiculous. So I get these magic exotic wood speaker wire lift to lift the speaker up off of my .... WOODEN FLOORS? Maybe if you have Steel floors, there might be some merit to this, though still doubtful.
And why LIFT the speaker wires, why not just run them in some conduit or raceway along the walls. That keeps them up off the evil floors.
Why not just build a simple basic Trough Lift out of lumberyard wood and glue (no nails or screws). You could take your wife out to dinner for a month on the money you saved. Or better yet, leave the speaker wires on the wooden floors and take your wife out to dinner for two months.
If Magic makes you happy, who am I to deny anyone that happiness. If I could scheme up some Magical product and come up with pseudo-science and a good spiel to sell it, I would be sorely tempted. If fools are going to give their money away, they might as well give it away to me.
Say ... I've got some Magic Toothpicks made from special exotic wood, if you have one of these in your mouth when you listen to music, the resonance of the exotic wood in your head will make the music sound better. Only $100 for a box of 100. Any takers?
Anyone? ... Magic Exotic Wood Acoustically Enhancing Toothpicks? $100 per box?
Steve/bluewizard.
"Your" marketing?
I don't have any connection with Vandersteen, financial or otherwise.
That was a generic "your" as in "the typical or common type of".
I expect all companies to proclaim their product is the greatest thing since sliced bread or that they have some secret sauce that makes their (often) generic product, much more wonderful than the other largely interchangeable products.
That's basic marketing and a wise consumer takes it for what it is.
I had a long and detailed reply to the rest of it.
However, IF your point is that it was simply a piece of marketing information and thus should be treated as marketing nonsense. I disagree.
I do NOT think it was simply marketing verbiage and I think they DO have to back up the kind of claims they were making.
Since many people apparently are treating it as evidence that claims about bi-wiring have some sort of validity.
Last edited:
BI-Wiring Experiment -
OK, I've got wire laying around, rolls of it. So, why not bi-wire my speakers just to check it out.
Right now I have my Left speaker bi-wired so I can compare it to the un-bi-wired Right speaker.
I think I might have maybe possibly heard a difference. Maybe possibly the sound is a bit crisper in the highs on the Bi-Wire side. Though do keep in mind that I am straining with all my might TO hear a difference. If you try hard enough, you will hear what you are determined to hear.
So, I am going to leave the speaker with one Bi-Wired for a few days, then I'm going to bi-wire both. To make sure I don't get any crosstalk between the wires, I'm going to cut Popsicle sticks in half, and tape them between the wires assuring that the wires are kept 2" apart.
Seems like a lot of fuss for nothing. But knowledge is power, and no knowledge is every wasted. My biggest expenditure is going to be effort. A rare commodity at my age, but I'll manage.
I have made one concession though. I have one identical brand, with the same construction, but I have that wire in 14ga and 16ga. Not wanting to waste my 14ga wire, I made the tweeters with 16ga wire. So, 14ga to the woofers, and 16ga to the tweeters, but both the same brand, same model line, same construction. Close enough I figure.
So, far any difference, real or imagined is so slight that you have to strain to hear it.
Steve/bluewizard
OK, I've got wire laying around, rolls of it. So, why not bi-wire my speakers just to check it out.
Right now I have my Left speaker bi-wired so I can compare it to the un-bi-wired Right speaker.
I think I might have maybe possibly heard a difference. Maybe possibly the sound is a bit crisper in the highs on the Bi-Wire side. Though do keep in mind that I am straining with all my might TO hear a difference. If you try hard enough, you will hear what you are determined to hear.
So, I am going to leave the speaker with one Bi-Wired for a few days, then I'm going to bi-wire both. To make sure I don't get any crosstalk between the wires, I'm going to cut Popsicle sticks in half, and tape them between the wires assuring that the wires are kept 2" apart.
Seems like a lot of fuss for nothing. But knowledge is power, and no knowledge is every wasted. My biggest expenditure is going to be effort. A rare commodity at my age, but I'll manage.
I have made one concession though. I have one identical brand, with the same construction, but I have that wire in 14ga and 16ga. Not wanting to waste my 14ga wire, I made the tweeters with 16ga wire. So, 14ga to the woofers, and 16ga to the tweeters, but both the same brand, same model line, same construction. Close enough I figure.
So, far any difference, real or imagined is so slight that you have to strain to hear it.
Steve/bluewizard
I personally think it is evidence about bi-wiring as having some sort of validity, not with respect to their reasoning necessarily - which I too find suspect, but rather that it can be audible.
To that specific conclusion, note that Vandersteen has been doing blind panel testing since the '70s. And it's not unreasonable to think that this area of research included that format.
With respect to Marketing (simple or otherwise).
I'm at something of a loss to comprehend it's "TRUE" purpose, if it's NOT marketing.
It's specifically designed to promote their product by way of informing potential customers that they *think* they have a technical advantage under a certain use-condition.
If that's not marketing, then I've been rather confused for quite some time..
-you know, since the age of 3.
What's more:
They aren't in the business of selling cables.
No, indeed they're not. They're in the business of selling into a market that has ingrained superstitions which need to be catered to.
Re; Vandersteen article -
Everything Vandersteen said in that article from a technical perspective is true - ie: eddy current, stray magnetic fields, Back EMF, etc.... These are all known and established things in science.
The question isn't do they exist, because they do. The underlying question is, do they matter? That is, certainly they are there, but is it possible for the human ear or human mind to detect their presence in any way, shape, or form.
The same with exotic speaker wire. There is true engineering that goes into speaker wire design, especially the expensive type. Some use a circular braid. Some use a solid core with thin wire twist around it. Some use exotic materials. Some space the lead wire out and keep the return wires apart from each other. All these things matter, all these thing effect the design, effect the inductance, the capacitance, control the Skin Effect. That part is not in question.
The part that is in question is - does it matter? Can it be heard in any case by anyone ever?
On another forum, someone some how had the detailed specs on some pretty basic speaker wire. Inductance per foot, and capacitance per foot was given. So, I calculated how much or at what frequencies those parameters would come into play. Keeping in mind this was pretty ordinary wire.
From my calculations none of the parameters had any effect below 40khz. Yes, those parameters were there, those parameters mattered from a technical perspective. But from a practical perspective, they had no effect.
For what it is worth.
Steve/bluewizard
Everything Vandersteen said in that article from a technical perspective is true - ie: eddy current, stray magnetic fields, Back EMF, etc.... These are all known and established things in science.
The question isn't do they exist, because they do. The underlying question is, do they matter? That is, certainly they are there, but is it possible for the human ear or human mind to detect their presence in any way, shape, or form.
The same with exotic speaker wire. There is true engineering that goes into speaker wire design, especially the expensive type. Some use a circular braid. Some use a solid core with thin wire twist around it. Some use exotic materials. Some space the lead wire out and keep the return wires apart from each other. All these things matter, all these thing effect the design, effect the inductance, the capacitance, control the Skin Effect. That part is not in question.
The part that is in question is - does it matter? Can it be heard in any case by anyone ever?
On another forum, someone some how had the detailed specs on some pretty basic speaker wire. Inductance per foot, and capacitance per foot was given. So, I calculated how much or at what frequencies those parameters would come into play. Keeping in mind this was pretty ordinary wire.
From my calculations none of the parameters had any effect below 40khz. Yes, those parameters were there, those parameters mattered from a technical perspective. But from a practical perspective, they had no effect.
For what it is worth.
Steve/bluewizard
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
In Vandersteen's case it was bi-amping, NOT bi-wiring. (..and let's not confuse that.)
Moreover,
What was the hi-fi cable co. business like back in the late '70's and early '80's? Particularly with respect to any pervasive sense of bi-wiring being the "thing" to do?
ie. Vandersteen *pre-dates* the sort of buzz we had even 20 years ago on this issue. And serious HiFi cable manufacturers probably could have been counted on one hand.
Last edited:
Use a new piece of the same wire on your other speaker as well. Make the source mono, place the speakers side by side and swap the wires around after a day. That's what I did.
Real, imagined? Well, I tested much as Cal said and heard no difference. I still suggest if the second cable cost $5 ( because you are smart enough to just use 16 ga zip instead of boutique cables that probably are worse) then the money would have been better spent on better speakers. Solve the first 90% of any given problem and move on to the next problem. Building speakers I can attest, the difference between a $30 tweeter and a $50 tweeter is greater than the difference between a $150 AVR and the finest esoteric amp you can build. Guess what? Those $30 tweeters are likely what are in your $5000 speakers.
Vanderstein makes a fine speaker. Actually the 2Ce is one of those that make everyone say " how the heck can we do better?" They may be citing laboratory level physics as they have to sell in a market of reviewers who drink from the fountain of snake oil. Again, from my speaker building hobby, their success is due to very careful driver and crossover integration. Esoteric materials is not the key to success. Careful engineering is. Because they make a fine speaker does not mean you should believe their advertising slick-sheets. Long live the ugly monkey coffin!
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.