Philosophical relativism, with all of attendant problems. Some extraordinarily intelligent philosophers disagree and have explained why. As soon as you render absolute truths, anything from the laws of physics and the horror of murder, subject to individual acceptance (as in, it is my opinion so it doesn't matter what anyone else says) then it becomes dangerous, for everyone. Best explained by people far smarter than me.
Hmmmmmmmmmm?
Again, people far smarter and more qualified than me have made this finding, SL for one, but there are many more. Still, there are people more than willing to dispute this based on nothing more than their "opinion". Relativism at its best.
Yes, that was how I read it too. The reason for this is - speakers are not linear loads. Feed a speaker with a perfectly distortion-free sinewave voltage and it'll reward you by drawing a distorted current. Since no amp/cable combination has perfectly zero output impedance the distorted current will induce voltage distortion across the non-zero impedance. Hence those FFT plots where there are more 'spikes' at the speaker terminals than at the amp's.
It's obvious in the thread title..a waveform difference..an analysis to try and decide whether it is at least theoretically feasible that bi-wiring can make any difference.
I bi-wire.
My home made/designed speakers (and they're pretty good) have been bi-wired with Kimber 8TC/4TC for about 20 years.
I set up my crossover implementation to allow bi-wire. Woofer network on separate binding posts from the mid-high (it's a 3 way)
Three things happen when you bi-wire:
1. No HF current flows on the woofer cable (some say this matters; the strand interaction people)
2. No LF current flows on the mid-high cable ( " " " " )
3. The salesman sells twice as much cable. (I'm sure that this matters to the salesman)
I can't tell the difference (bi-wire or not). Bi-amping I can and it would certainly be better if the crossover was before the power amp I'm sure.
Just lucky I guess. I have copper ears (not golden).
Some people may hear it; I can't.
My home made/designed speakers (and they're pretty good) have been bi-wired with Kimber 8TC/4TC for about 20 years.
I set up my crossover implementation to allow bi-wire. Woofer network on separate binding posts from the mid-high (it's a 3 way)
Three things happen when you bi-wire:
1. No HF current flows on the woofer cable (some say this matters; the strand interaction people)
2. No LF current flows on the mid-high cable ( " " " " )
3. The salesman sells twice as much cable. (I'm sure that this matters to the salesman)
I can't tell the difference (bi-wire or not). Bi-amping I can and it would certainly be better if the crossover was before the power amp I'm sure.
Just lucky I guess. I have copper ears (not golden).
Some people may hear it; I can't.
OK, I'm game. But I don't own any "typical" speakers, tho I maybe able to borrow some.
Any old cable will do, or does it have to be fancy?
NP. You seem like a reasonable and knowledgeable guy.
[ironic comment]Good thing I'm always polite and even tempered.[/ironic comment]
I'm not clear on your points in the second part though.
When you say commercial, are you talking something like stadium or concert as opposed to Polk or B&W?
I was basically discussing bi-amping in the case of your typical $500 to maybe a few thousand dollars speakers. Mostly retail products but a lot of DIY designs as well, where you often get the LF/mid-HF dual binding posts. With these speakers using multiple amps vs a single sufficiently powerful amp is pretty much a wash.
I don't understand this one at all. What does moving have to do with changing the speakers?
My point wasn't that there are never any situations where it is useful, just that if you are looking for improved SQ.
Better speakers and/or room improvements are a much better way to spend your money than worrying about things like bi-amping.
abraxalito said:
I was never under the impression that the crossover wouldn't have a major effect on things. That's just basic EE, you don't hook up a complicated circuit to something without effects.
I'm not so certain that the paper really tells us anything useful about the cables.
They don't seem to have bothered to isolate the effects of the crossover from the effect of the cables when both were in the system.
They also don't seem to have made any effort to quantify how significant the effects were. I've never doubted you could detect an effect with test equipment, but audibility is something else.
soundchaser001 said:
Putting the crossover before the amp, would in a sense be doing an active crossover. At least if you are talking about what I think you are. Namely, only amplifying the range of signals that you wanted the driver to re-produce. That definitely can make a big difference. Though obviously you would loose out on some of the other advantages of an active/digital crossover.
Now that I think about it though, this is in a sense what any sort of room correction does.
This does raise an interesting question though, with a passive crossover and a relatively weak signal like you would get wt a pre-out as opposed to the potentially hundreds of watts of power from an amp output, I would think that the signal would be significantly more susceptible to noise or distortions, due to flaws or other imperfections in the crossover.
Does anyone have any experience with this?
At least they'll have less resistance to signals going into them then golden ears as long as you keep 'em clean and untarnished. ;-)
I have news for you, I hope you're sitting down.
No I am not thinking PA, the OP has a set of speakers purchased from a store. The speaker designer has no idea what environment they may end up in.
Let's say you move house and go from a small listening room to a larger one and aren't interested in new speakers since your mortgage payment is now higher and your wife absolutely has to have that new furniture instead of that dusty old stuff.
My point is you can keep the same set of speakers in your new room if you just boost the bass a little so it sounds like the old room. Let's face it, very few persons will do anything to tailor the sound other than by ear, so a little boost is all they need.
We don't disagree, but my statements I believe, are legit and we weren't talking about the best way, we were discussing why bi-amping on a commercial set of speakers might exist.
Actually we've kinda highjacked this thread so apologies to river251 et al. George, feel free to PM me.
and what do you expect
but I guess it's 'easier' to ask a question than answering it
and even 'simpler' to mock those who try
If the wiring may give some improvement on the electrical side, by differentiating paths etc. etc.
It would be still compromised by the mechanical link that happens when
two or more speakers are attached on the same baffle.
So why worry ?
It is interesting to see so much nonsense posted in one place.
Try reading this.
Bi-Wiring From Amplifier To Loudspeaker | Audioholics
Bi-wiring Part 2: The Cable Conundrum | Audioholics
http://www.achievum.eu/bi-wiring.html
Notice the science and equations, rather than vague claims and justifications. This is how you tell nonsense from someone who's bothered to actually research the topic.
Vandersteen said:
I see they didn't bother to actually determine if it does.
But much of high end audio does seem to consist of claiming that some largely theoretical problem is such a dire threat to your SQ that without their magic feather, you might as well listen to a walkman.
Vandersteen said:
Again I ask. If something this simple provides such a dramatic difference.
WHY DOES ANYONE DO ANYTHING ELSE???
Vandersteen said:
Vandersteen said:
Really? I am I supposed to take something like this seriously?
Vandersteen said:
Okay, I as far as I am concerned they are just making things up.
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Replacing the input coupling capacitor to any amp so that it cuts the lows is possibly the simplest analogy to a passive line level crossover. There's no problem in doing that and sometimes there are advantages. The usual benefit sought is probably within the same range as using cheap vs better capacitors.
You guys are either crazy, or have some type of systems I've never seen. I found very early on that I have to bi-wire. Running just a single wire to the speaker didn't make much sound. Someone told me it has something to do with "circuits" and current flow or something. I could be remembering wrong.
I nominate this for "Post of the Year".
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