All measurements are flawed!!! My ears say so!!!So much talk, so much math. No measurements.
Hmm, as a point of marketing (which it is and isn't claimed as otherwise) - would you expect thorough analysis with it displayed?
Additionally, should a speaker Co. spend the resources necessary to investigate this to prove their theory's conclusively to the world?
As a point of reference, at least as far as most major loudspeaker manufacturers are concerned, Vandersteen is very much an "objective" design Co..
So far, it's down to the usual case where two mechanisms have been identified that might improve the sound quality but whether or not their effects might be significant-enough to make it worth trying to exploit them is still unknown, at least to those who can't or won't calculate, simulate, or measure them, or find believable results of same.
But no one has suggested that bi-wiring might harm the sound quality.
So the only potential negatives identified by the anti-bi-wiring folks, so far, are 1) "Don't waste your time" and 2) "Don't waste your money".
But I don't think we are going to "save" many of the idiots who typically buy all of the snake oil they can find. And there will be time involved for anyone who likes to think for themselves.
But no one has suggested that bi-wiring might harm the sound quality.
So the only potential negatives identified by the anti-bi-wiring folks, so far, are 1) "Don't waste your time" and 2) "Don't waste your money".
But I don't think we are going to "save" many of the idiots who typically buy all of the snake oil they can find. And there will be time involved for anyone who likes to think for themselves.
Actually it pretty tough to prove anything conclusively.
Even most good research doesn't achieve that level of "known fact" without multiple peer reviews.
In this context though it's just advertising in the form of a "frequently asked question" response.
Hmm, I wonder how many products (ALL products, not just audio-related) that are in fact making technical claims - actually prove that claim conclusively?
I'm guessing the answer to that would be almost NONE.
There might well be the expectation for them to do so, but it's an absurd expectation.
Outside of fashion audio and "alternative" medicine, most do, in fact. When I've designed consumer products to be sold by major retailers (like Walmart), not only did I have to have data to back up the technical claims, but I had to have it verified by approved testing organizations (like BV). The latter may be a bit much to expect of small audio companies, but the former is absolutely a reasonable expectation. Either measurement data, science-based analysis, or controlled listening.
I tend to look at this subject as more of a "best practice"..
May make a difference, may not..
As a hobbyist, how much extra effort (and money) is it going to take to make the design *potentially* better?
Could that effort and cost be better spent elsewhere, or have I reached the "value" state I'm looking for with all the other portions of the design?
Of course IF I'm stupid enough to purchase 1k+ speaker cables, an extra run of similar cabling probably isn't going to be such a great "investment" to the design as a whole.
On the other hand perhaps I've spent only 30 bucks on my "premium" DIY loudspeaker cable, and have no problem spending another 15 on some lower (10) gauge copper cable for my woofer's bi-wire "run" (usually sourced from hardware store like Home Depot in the US). That along with a few other design elements (..products like some chunky binding posts and a post bridge and a bit more wire), doesn't have to be an enormous expense.
May make a difference, may not..
As a hobbyist, how much extra effort (and money) is it going to take to make the design *potentially* better?
Could that effort and cost be better spent elsewhere, or have I reached the "value" state I'm looking for with all the other portions of the design?
Of course IF I'm stupid enough to purchase 1k+ speaker cables, an extra run of similar cabling probably isn't going to be such a great "investment" to the design as a whole.
On the other hand perhaps I've spent only 30 bucks on my "premium" DIY loudspeaker cable, and have no problem spending another 15 on some lower (10) gauge copper cable for my woofer's bi-wire "run" (usually sourced from hardware store like Home Depot in the US). That along with a few other design elements (..products like some chunky binding posts and a post bridge and a bit more wire), doesn't have to be an enormous expense.
I'm sorry, but I HIGHLY doubt this.
(..and I'm no stranger to Walmart as a customer.. or reading product labels for that matter.)When it's a technical bit on what actually goes INTO the product - yes. Particularly if it's topical or ingested, the FDA makes requirements there.
But when it's an explanation for how the product works down to very fine detail - no.
The same is true for representations on how it will work for "you".
..and the reason is fairly obvious: threat of litigation.
IF the claims start "smelling like" something more than simply advertising then it exposes the manufacturer AND the supplier to an increased threat of litigation. And while that threat is always "there", any business that wants to survive is going to try and minimize those threats.
So, this can and has been argued to death for ages.
But I say -
- DO Waste your time.
- But don't waste a lot of money on the first try.
Vandersteen has give the standard argument in favor of Bi-Wiring, but he has given it in the form of an opinion. No data to back it up.
Now we could wait for Vandersteen to prove his assertion, or we could just dig some extra wire out of the closet and give it a try.
It doesn't really matter if it does or does not make a difference. What matters is if you can hear a difference in your home with your system. I say if you have Vandersteeen speakers and equivalent amps, the you might hear a difference. But if you have common, even slightly higher end, Consumer equipment, the difference is going to be small.
However, even my opinion doesn't matter.
If you really want to know, if you want to prove it to the only person that matters, give it a try. If you like what you hear, fine. And if you don't like what you hear, fine. You've expended nothing more than the cost of the wire. And if you are like me, you have plenty of spare wire laying around.
So, the only logical conclusion that can ever be reached from this discussion and other discussions like it is -
TRY IT!
Just don't spend a lot of money trying it until you have established that it works for you.
Just one man's opinion.
Steve/bluewizard
I'm sorry, but I HIGHLY doubt this.
I lived it. Ditto when I was making wine corks, mouse emulators, touchpads, keyboards, game controllers... those damn customers actually expected claims to be backed up! They expected data! I spent years gathering and verifying it! Crazy, I should have told them to talk to you, it would have saved me a lot of effort and money.
I think the only thing it will show is that expectation will be fulfilled by Confirmation Bias; the only that works in the exercise will be that well established characteristic of human beings - self-deception.
What current flow? It is AC only, unless you have a faulty amp.
Please explain as I have no idea what you are trying to say?
It doesn't matter if it is confirmation bias, if you like it, you like it. If you are happy, then, right or wrong, you are still happy.
The NET current flow for AC is zero, but that does not mean there is NO current flow nor does it mean there are no magnetic fields set up around the wires.
If AC current flows at a rate of +2 amp followed by a flow of -2 amp, then the net is zero, but TWO AMP still flowed ... TWICE.
Certainly current flows, otherwise there would be no power consumed. And if no power is consumed, they why to we bother to rate amp by power. Though even with power, the net power, from one perspective, is zero, and yet we all know, net or no net, Power is still consumed.
The eddy or mixed currents is one of the common arguments for bi-wiring. However, to anyone who has ever seen a complex musical passage displayed on an oscilloscope, you know there is not a collection of high frequency signals, mid frequency signal, and low frequency signal, rather their is a composite signal. At any one time slice of the music, you do not have high frequency current and low frequency current. You simply have one current relative to the voltage within that thin time slice.
Back EMF might be another matter, but millions of amps and speaker run on a single pair of wires, and they sound just fine. So, Back EMF can't be a massive problem with most common mid to higher consumer grade equipment. No one is saying it doesn't exist, I'm just questioning how big a problem it is for consumer grade equipment.
For anyone who is curious, the solution is simple - TRY IT - you will either like it or you won't.
Just a few thoughts.
Steve/bluewizard
The NET current flow for AC is zero, but that does not mean there is NO current flow nor does it mean there are no magnetic fields set up around the wires.
If AC current flows at a rate of +2 amp followed by a flow of -2 amp, then the net is zero, but TWO AMP still flowed ... TWICE.
Certainly current flows, otherwise there would be no power consumed. And if no power is consumed, they why to we bother to rate amp by power. Though even with power, the net power, from one perspective, is zero, and yet we all know, net or no net, Power is still consumed.
The eddy or mixed currents is one of the common arguments for bi-wiring. However, to anyone who has ever seen a complex musical passage displayed on an oscilloscope, you know there is not a collection of high frequency signals, mid frequency signal, and low frequency signal, rather their is a composite signal. At any one time slice of the music, you do not have high frequency current and low frequency current. You simply have one current relative to the voltage within that thin time slice.
Back EMF might be another matter, but millions of amps and speaker run on a single pair of wires, and they sound just fine. So, Back EMF can't be a massive problem with most common mid to higher consumer grade equipment. No one is saying it doesn't exist, I'm just questioning how big a problem it is for consumer grade equipment.
For anyone who is curious, the solution is simple - TRY IT - you will either like it or you won't.
Just a few thoughts.
Steve/bluewizard
bi-wire is good ! but is speakers dependent...
passive bi-amping is better!! but not so cost effective...
active bi-amp the best!!!!! the most tuneable option.........but you have to know what to do....
Just a few though
so...the cheaper option to try to improve your set up is....
BI-WIRE ...just try it.
cheers
passive bi-amping is better!! but not so cost effective...
active bi-amp the best!!!!! the most tuneable option.........but you have to know what to do....
Just a few though
so...the cheaper option to try to improve your set up is....
BI-WIRE ...just try it.
cheers
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Yeah, I can see that happening. There is always someone that want's to know more (a LOT more) before making a purchase.Actually in the consumer "chain" its more often the "buying" agent for the store making demands. (..of course something like Walmart doesn't really buy anything - the agents are just there to say what can be put on the shelf-space.)
For the record, though I do get your sarcasm, this is VANDERSTEEN -
Vandersteen Audio - Main*Page
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
http://www.vandersteen.com/vandersteenbrochure.pdf
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
http://www.vandersteen.com/treo_prelim_lit.pdf
Steve/bluewizard
<grin!>
Yeah, Richard Vandersteen is an exceptional guy. My memory might be a little hazy but I think he designed, built and sold one of the first commercially-successful speakers with time-aligned drivers, starting over 30 years ago.
I bought a pair of used Vandersteen 2Ce time-aligned speakers and they are very, VERY good. The imaging and sound quality are almost as good as those of my Magnepan MG-3.6/R speakers, which is saying a whole lot, especially since the 2Ce are available used for only about $600 a pair! And they can handle 250 Watts into their 8 Ohms. (And they are set up for bi-wiring!
)About two-and-a-half years ago, one speaker of the first pair I bought arrived with major structural damage (which I didn't find until I had listened to them for a few days, when I heard a buzz on one note of only one song, and finally removed the sock). In a panic, I took some photos and emailed them to Vandersteen's customer service email address, along with my contact info. Incredibly, my cell phone rang about 20 minutes later and it was Richard Vandersteen, himself, calling to reassure me that they could definitely make that speaker like new again, including verification with measurements in their anechoic chamber. (This was only ONE out of about 200,000 pairs that they had made and sold!)
Unfortunately, the two speakers had been insured separately, and UPS came to inspect it for damage and took it to the depot, promising that they would bring it back the next day, but they never brought it back and sent me a check instead. (I found another pair, within 3 hours' drive, and picked them up myself. Now I have three. Anybody need a single 2Ce speaker?)
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Hmm, as a point of marketing (which it is and isn't claimed as otherwise) - would you expect thorough analysis with it displayed?
Additionally, should a speaker Co. spend the resources necessary to investigate this to prove their theory's conclusively to the world?
There's a saying among skeptics (from Carl Sagan I believe) "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof".
I'm willing to forgive your typical marketing verbiage about someone's product being so wonderful your face will melt off if you listen to it. However when they start handing out advice as how to do things and what's more making some extraordinary claims about how much something matters, especially about things that don't.
Then yeah, they damm well better have something to back that up.
So? They certainly aren't being "objective" when it comes to cabling advice.
Doing something right in one area, doesn't mean doing something wrong in another is therefore justified or should be given more credence than it deserves.
I don't think that advising people to use snake oil is ever good advice, even if they think it works. Bi-wiring is pretty harmless as these things go, but it's not a long hop to expensive HDMI cables or cable lifters or other sorts of expensive nonsense.
If someone has the money to waste on these things, it's not a problem, but most people don't and have to make choices. Bad advice as to things that that matter doesn't help and there's a LOT of bad info out there.
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