Hello Vix,
Can you eliminate the U frame, sounds silly, but all this OB stuff is highly effected by such a frame. I would try your speaker combo's on flat baffle only.I am not a big fan of U frame of wings. Magic goes out the window fast & I think you will have better luck integrating. Bass integration again has never been aproblem for me as long as it is OB bass I am dealing with & bi-amping. Wings have allways caused problems for me though. Try it all on flat baffle with that bass driver slammed to floor & the B200 at ear highth..18" on the B200 seems very good & go wider at the bottome of baffle & bi-amp w/ active 4th . NO XO on B200. I Only time I had bass interetion problems was trying ported subs for help, but never with OB bass on flat panels. Wings & U- channel make drastic changes in OB behavior. Good luck..Don't give up. All worth it in end. You will never go back....
Can you eliminate the U frame, sounds silly, but all this OB stuff is highly effected by such a frame. I would try your speaker combo's on flat baffle only.I am not a big fan of U frame of wings. Magic goes out the window fast & I think you will have better luck integrating. Bass integration again has never been aproblem for me as long as it is OB bass I am dealing with & bi-amping. Wings have allways caused problems for me though. Try it all on flat baffle with that bass driver slammed to floor & the B200 at ear highth..18" on the B200 seems very good & go wider at the bottome of baffle & bi-amp w/ active 4th . NO XO on B200. I Only time I had bass interetion problems was trying ported subs for help, but never with OB bass on flat panels. Wings & U- channel make drastic changes in OB behavior. Good luck..Don't give up. All worth it in end. You will never go back....
Try a simpler setup
Hi Vix,
I think JandG made a good point regarding removing the U-frame. My own experience agrees with his observation that a U-frame can have quite detrimental effects on the sound of the speakers. If the side wings extend all the way up to the top, the openness of the OB sound is lost, the soundstage collapses, and even the tonal balance changes. The differences can be quite drastic. Many people doing OB might not appreciate how big a difference a small change to the baffle can have on the sound.
To get a sense of the potential of the Visaton B200 driver, I'd suggest that you put them on a simple flat board of a decent size, like 32"x48", run them fullrange and add a box subwoofer for the bass. This should give you a flavor of how the FR driver on OB should sound like. If the sound is promising, then you can add OB woofers to the same baffles. I'd use an EQ (a cheap analog prosound unit will do just fine) on the bass signal to generally dial in the needed boost (not to compensate for all the peaks and valleys, mind you). Once you get the satisfactory sound, this will become the "reference" sound of what the FR+woofer combination can do. From there, you can try to change the baffle configuration, such as using a U-frame, or make other changes, but I suspect that most changes you do to that simple system will only make it sound not as good.
By the way, I am the guy who made the acrylic baffle OB speakers that were shown at the recent Burning Amp event.
Best regards,
Kurt
Hi Vix,
I think JandG made a good point regarding removing the U-frame. My own experience agrees with his observation that a U-frame can have quite detrimental effects on the sound of the speakers. If the side wings extend all the way up to the top, the openness of the OB sound is lost, the soundstage collapses, and even the tonal balance changes. The differences can be quite drastic. Many people doing OB might not appreciate how big a difference a small change to the baffle can have on the sound.
To get a sense of the potential of the Visaton B200 driver, I'd suggest that you put them on a simple flat board of a decent size, like 32"x48", run them fullrange and add a box subwoofer for the bass. This should give you a flavor of how the FR driver on OB should sound like. If the sound is promising, then you can add OB woofers to the same baffles. I'd use an EQ (a cheap analog prosound unit will do just fine) on the bass signal to generally dial in the needed boost (not to compensate for all the peaks and valleys, mind you). Once you get the satisfactory sound, this will become the "reference" sound of what the FR+woofer combination can do. From there, you can try to change the baffle configuration, such as using a U-frame, or make other changes, but I suspect that most changes you do to that simple system will only make it sound not as good.
By the way, I am the guy who made the acrylic baffle OB speakers that were shown at the recent Burning Amp event.
Best regards,
Kurt
It will be very interesting to read what Vix comes up with. Rudolf knows his OB stuff, so that's the first thing I would try. Find out is it's a room resonance.
I do find that small side wings help, but those that Vix has are both tall and deep - and they look like they are identical left and right. Is that true?
My experience has been that small side wings really help the lower mids - I like them. But it seems best to taper one, but not the other, or at least make them of different widths. Asymmetrical is the key.
I do find that small side wings help, but those that Vix has are both tall and deep - and they look like they are identical left and right. Is that true?
My experience has been that small side wings really help the lower mids - I like them. But it seems best to taper one, but not the other, or at least make them of different widths. Asymmetrical is the key.
Kurt, I liked the look of your acrylic OB's. Really nice. Thanks for the tips.
Panomaniac, there are two things that come to my mind:
1. Remove one wing on each OB (not very pretty- and the whole thing becomes unstable)
2. Drill some asymmetrical (zig-zag) holes of various diameter 50-180mm starting from top to bottom of the side wings. May not look that nice, but it will acoustically "remove" the side wings, while preserving mechanical stability of the baffle, and it will also break the symmetry....
Vix
Panomaniac, there are two things that come to my mind:
1. Remove one wing on each OB (not very pretty- and the whole thing becomes unstable)
2. Drill some asymmetrical (zig-zag) holes of various diameter 50-180mm starting from top to bottom of the side wings. May not look that nice, but it will acoustically "remove" the side wings, while preserving mechanical stability of the baffle, and it will also break the symmetry....
Vix
Vix,
Thanks for the kind words about the acrylic OB's.
Before you start to cut holes on your U-frames, you can try using deflection panels to change the shape of the back "cavity" of the U-frame. Just cut some cardboard pieces and tape them at an angle to the wings to cover up the corners. I've used such deflection panels to good effect when I tried a U-frame at one time. The deflection panels restored some of the openness and the soundstage, but ultimately I decided to do away with the wings.
Best regards,
Kurt
Thanks for the kind words about the acrylic OB's.
Before you start to cut holes on your U-frames, you can try using deflection panels to change the shape of the back "cavity" of the U-frame. Just cut some cardboard pieces and tape them at an angle to the wings to cover up the corners. I've used such deflection panels to good effect when I tried a U-frame at one time. The deflection panels restored some of the openness and the soundstage, but ultimately I decided to do away with the wings.
Best regards,
Kurt
Vix said:Hi,
After a lot of contemplation and buggin' people with various questions, a lot of blah blah...
Finally I did it.
Hi Vix,
I used to have a similar speaker as yours (OB fullranger + bass-driver), but I ditched the bass-driver and digitally equalized the fullranger, and I never looked back.
My system:
http://my.hifi.nl/index.php?user=1088
Re: Re: Visaton B200+Eminence Beta 15=OB!
Hi Nielsio,
It seems that your listening room is too small for a big bass speaker, so it may sound better with only a fullrange. I also liked Visaton only, but I missed the raw quantity of bass that Betas do. ( I want my cake and eat it too)...
Nielsio said:
Hi Nielsio,
It seems that your listening room is too small for a big bass speaker, so it may sound better with only a fullrange. I also liked Visaton only, but I missed the raw quantity of bass that Betas do. ( I want my cake and eat it too)...
Re: Re: Re: Visaton B200+Eminence Beta 15=OB!
Digitally equalizing the speaker makes all the difference (if done correctly ofcourse). With the new setup I have more and better bass than with a bass-driver.
Hearing your system with Visaton only is not a fair comparison and you shouldn't judge it that way. Your enclosure + setup is not suited for running a single driver system, plus you aren't equalizing it.
Vix said:
Hi Nielsio,
It seems that your listening room is too small for a big bass speaker, so it may sound better with only a fullrange. I also liked Visaton only, but I missed the raw quantity of bass that Betas do. ( I want my cake and eat it too)...
Digitally equalizing the speaker makes all the difference (if done correctly ofcourse). With the new setup I have more and better bass than with a bass-driver.
Hearing your system with Visaton only is not a fair comparison and you shouldn't judge it that way. Your enclosure + setup is not suited for running a single driver system, plus you aren't equalizing it.
Re: Re: Re: Visaton B200+Eminence Beta 15=OB!
Exactly. If you're going to stress one driver with the whole range, then you're going to have to make optimal use of its output, after which you equalize it.
I started out with an enclosure similar to Vix's. Then I added panels, coupled it with the sidewalls, and I also raised it from the ground. Raising it from the ground gets rid of low resonances. But also the height of the driver was much better positioned (less room interaction at that height). The distance from the backwall is important also; they need at least a meter.
panomaniac said:
Great trick if you can do it! I have not been able to. Have enough trouble in my room with 15" woofers.Big baffles and corner loading are helping you, do you think?
Exactly. If you're going to stress one driver with the whole range, then you're going to have to make optimal use of its output, after which you equalize it.
I started out with an enclosure similar to Vix's. Then I added panels, coupled it with the sidewalls, and I also raised it from the ground. Raising it from the ground gets rid of low resonances. But also the height of the driver was much better positioned (less room interaction at that height). The distance from the backwall is important also; they need at least a meter.
Hi,
I've changed some things here and the end result seems to be a bit better....
1. Replaced the NAD 3020, which used to serve as a bass amp for the Betas. I got a second-hand Sony TA-N511 power amp. Now the Betas can move! They sound much tighter.
2. Fiddled with the active crossover again. It is now active first order, bass at 150 Hz, and Visatons at 330 Hz.
The result is:
I found a way to make these listenable, albeit at two "modes:
1. "Normal" mode: This is for everyday listening at a moderate volume. Visaton B200 works in full range (closed switch over a high-pass capacitor at the input of the amp). Bass amp (Sony) is turned off, so Eminence Betas do nothing. This setup sounds nice and pure, and although there's not much bass, the rest is fine.
2. "Loud" mode: This is when I want it to "rock". and drive the neighbors crazy. Visaton is high-passed at 330 Hz,(open switch at input capacitor). Sony amp drives Betas full steam. Although I don't like the sound qualitywise, it is capable of decent SPL and very concert-like sound...
I've changed some things here and the end result seems to be a bit better....
1. Replaced the NAD 3020, which used to serve as a bass amp for the Betas. I got a second-hand Sony TA-N511 power amp. Now the Betas can move! They sound much tighter.
2. Fiddled with the active crossover again. It is now active first order, bass at 150 Hz, and Visatons at 330 Hz.
The result is:
I found a way to make these listenable, albeit at two "modes:
1. "Normal" mode: This is for everyday listening at a moderate volume. Visaton B200 works in full range (closed switch over a high-pass capacitor at the input of the amp). Bass amp (Sony) is turned off, so Eminence Betas do nothing. This setup sounds nice and pure, and although there's not much bass, the rest is fine.
2. "Loud" mode: This is when I want it to "rock". and drive the neighbors crazy. Visaton is high-passed at 330 Hz,(open switch at input capacitor). Sony amp drives Betas full steam. Although I don't like the sound qualitywise, it is capable of decent SPL and very concert-like sound...
Vix said:
thanks. I was wondering why so many choose the B200 over the Supravox 215, Veravo 7x, Fostex 20x drivers.
I too am hoping to build an OB but intend to use 2 10" Hawthorne Augies for the bass (the width of my speaker will be limited to 15") and mated to a widerange+tweeter (B200 or it's alternates) or a coax (Tannoy or Hawthorne 10").
You seem to be having some trouble extracting what you want from your OB speaker. What are the pitfalls compared to traditional 3 ways (my present 3 ways use 4 Audio Concpets 12" woofers for the bass and 4 ScanSpeak 18cm and 2 1" revelator drivers for the top end). this is for a stereo pair.
Hi,
While I neither listened to Supravox 215, nor Veravo 7x, I can say that Visaton B200 has a very pleasant sound. There are speakers that can beat it in the bass, midrange, or highs. But IMHO there are few speakers that can do all this and still be a joy to listen to. A caveat: You have to either use a PLL filter, or install Dave's (planet 10) phase plugs. Otherwise Visaton has a midrange peak that can be quite annoying.
I am happily using a PLL filter between a preamp and the power amp.
OB's are strange creatures. Even though they look very simple to build, getting a flat response out of them is a daunting task. As you could read, I had to do a lot of experimentation with crossover points and slopes to get a satisfactory sound. While you can find general guidelines about OB, you'll still need a lot of patience until you find out what works in your case, otherwise you'll be disappointed (as I was).
At some point, I almost ended dismantling them and forgetting about the whole concept. However, OB sound is addictive. It has certain qualities that, despite its weaknesses, will pull you into listening more and more. (music)
Compared to traditional 3-way boxes, you will NOT get : Kick-in the chest-shake-your-butt-bass, and, perhaps, the high SPL...
What you'll get is a lifelike sound, more natural, without box resonances...You'' have to hear it for yourself....
Just imagine a bird singing in a box, versus a bird singing on a tree....
While I neither listened to Supravox 215, nor Veravo 7x, I can say that Visaton B200 has a very pleasant sound. There are speakers that can beat it in the bass, midrange, or highs. But IMHO there are few speakers that can do all this and still be a joy to listen to. A caveat: You have to either use a PLL filter, or install Dave's (planet 10) phase plugs. Otherwise Visaton has a midrange peak that can be quite annoying.
I am happily using a PLL filter between a preamp and the power amp.
OB's are strange creatures. Even though they look very simple to build, getting a flat response out of them is a daunting task. As you could read, I had to do a lot of experimentation with crossover points and slopes to get a satisfactory sound. While you can find general guidelines about OB, you'll still need a lot of patience until you find out what works in your case, otherwise you'll be disappointed (as I was).
At some point, I almost ended dismantling them and forgetting about the whole concept. However, OB sound is addictive. It has certain qualities that, despite its weaknesses, will pull you into listening more and more. (music)
Compared to traditional 3-way boxes, you will NOT get : Kick-in the chest-shake-your-butt-bass, and, perhaps, the high SPL...
What you'll get is a lifelike sound, more natural, without box resonances...You'' have to hear it for yourself....
Just imagine a bird singing in a box, versus a bird singing on a tree....
Vix said:Hi,
A caveat: You have to either use a PLL filter, or install Dave's (planet 10) phase plugs. I am happily using a PLL filter
OB's are strange creatures.
Compared to traditional 3-way boxes, you will NOT get : Kick-in the chest-shake-your-butt-bass
What you'll get is a lifelike sound, more natural, without box resonances...You'' have to hear it for yourself....
any reason why you chose the PLL filter over the phase plugs. I would think the phase plugs might be less obtrusive. It was becuase of the rumours of this midrange peak that I considered the Supravox (it is more available than the Veravox). I intdn driving the Visaton/Supravox with a EL34 PP UL amp.
I was hoping that with 2 10" Augies from Hawthorne one would get not only the lifelike sound but also some ammount of kick-in-the-check-shake-your-butt bass.
BTW do you use a tweeter with your B200?
Also I have heard some Tannoy 10" and 12" coax drivers and found the HF a bit aggressive (some of this has to do with the kind of music I listen too - 60s, 70s rock where recording engineers were often asleep at the wheel) hence wonder if the Hawthorne 10"+ Radian would suit my tastes. I was looking for at a ribbon tweeter operating from about 5K/6K+ or even higher.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.