Hi,
Thanks a lot for the support and advices. Yesterday I was too tired of trying all those combinations. In the end I just wanted to relax and cool my head
. So today I tried again, and here is the combinations that seems to work best:
1. Visatons high-pass 1st order at 80 Hz (just a small cap in front of the Zen V9 amp. By the way I also use Geoff's PLL filter to smooth Visaton's peaks.
2. Eminence Beta: low pass at 60 Hz 2nd order. I used low pass from Rod's circuit:
http://sound.westhost.com/project81.htm
Amplified by NAD 3020
Then I used a 3.3 mH choke in series with Betas. Inverted polarity at the Betas. ( If I am not mistaken Zen V9 also inverts phase, so I've reverse-connected Visatons as well)
So far this combination sounds best (although bass is still a bit flabby)
By the way.. it is true that at times I get impatient...some of you remember (almost a year ago) that I almost sent Visatons to Zen Mod for a proper disposal
. They were horrible-shouty creatures spitting at me. As they were broken-in, they mellowed. But the biggest change hapened when I installed Geoff's PLL circuit-it was a huge relief:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1190020#post1190020
So I guess I'll have to do two things: (Before I
the OB)
1. Be patient. Eminence Beta 15 is brand new. It will get better after a month or so.
2. Try a higher power SS amp for them.
Regards,
Vix
p.s. Hey..It looks that I started this thread. So, OT is welcomed!
Thanks a lot for the support and advices. Yesterday I was too tired of trying all those combinations. In the end I just wanted to relax and cool my head
. So today I tried again, and here is the combinations that seems to work best:1. Visatons high-pass 1st order at 80 Hz (just a small cap in front of the Zen V9 amp. By the way I also use Geoff's PLL filter to smooth Visaton's peaks.
2. Eminence Beta: low pass at 60 Hz 2nd order. I used low pass from Rod's circuit:
http://sound.westhost.com/project81.htm
Amplified by NAD 3020
Then I used a 3.3 mH choke in series with Betas. Inverted polarity at the Betas. ( If I am not mistaken Zen V9 also inverts phase, so I've reverse-connected Visatons as well)
So far this combination sounds best (although bass is still a bit flabby)
By the way.. it is true that at times I get impatient...some of you remember (almost a year ago) that I almost sent Visatons to Zen Mod for a proper disposal
. They were horrible-shouty creatures spitting at me. As they were broken-in, they mellowed. But the biggest change hapened when I installed Geoff's PLL circuit-it was a huge relief:http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1190020#post1190020
So I guess I'll have to do two things: (Before I
the OB)1. Be patient. Eminence Beta 15 is brand new. It will get better after a month or so.
2. Try a higher power SS amp for them.
Regards,
Vix
p.s. Hey..It looks that I started this thread. So, OT is welcomed!
Will said:
I did it mainly for two reasons:
1. I could obtain the Eminence Beta 15 (getting BGS40 was much more difficult)
2. Beta 15 is more than half the price of BGS40
phase_accurate said:
Yes, often it is more interesting and challenging to go through a difficulty and trying something new that works, rather than just plainly copying an existing design. This is DIY, isn't it?
Regards,
Vix
Vix,
I also fail to see the point in what you are doing: blindly combining different crossover slopes in the hope that you get the "right" combination.
The phase of the speaker is important and can greatly influence the response in the crossover area - you need measurements to get it right, if at all. What do you have against a crossover that maintains phase coherence, like LR4 or LR2 ?
And, as felixx said, it is quite possible that your woofers need correction (low pass shelving and even a notch a la Linkwitz). Mine are Alphas 15A with a much higher Q in Y-baffles and STILL need a slight low end boost to sound right (otherwise low bass is masked).
I also fail to see the point in what you are doing: blindly combining different crossover slopes in the hope that you get the "right" combination.
The phase of the speaker is important and can greatly influence the response in the crossover area - you need measurements to get it right, if at all. What do you have against a crossover that maintains phase coherence, like LR4 or LR2 ?
And, as felixx said, it is quite possible that your woofers need correction (low pass shelving and even a notch a la Linkwitz). Mine are Alphas 15A with a much higher Q in Y-baffles and STILL need a slight low end boost to sound right (otherwise low bass is masked).
they look like open backed boxes... not baffles
they are likley to suffer a few peaks just by the design
the inner sides need to be carpeted or something.. the base removed ... the baffle is too large around the visaton in my view too causing it to go too low.... you can roll it of by the baffle size /shape
you need to get them to work without too much electrical interference to get the best results...
just my thoughts...
steve
they are likley to suffer a few peaks just by the design
the inner sides need to be carpeted or something.. the base removed ... the baffle is too large around the visaton in my view too causing it to go too low.... you can roll it of by the baffle size /shape
you need to get them to work without too much electrical interference to get the best results...
just my thoughts...
steve
Built these 2 1/2 ways over the summer on a budget for my daughter's bf. They sound pretty good after I got the midrange bloom diminished from the high Q 6 1/2" pyramids (@ $9.95 each, hard to resist) The woofer is a 10" modified infinity reclaimed from 25 years ago... still working on the mod.
post #21
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110583
Q for the mids is .75, 10" ~.55
The planar tweeter is the Dayton model, and the cabinet is pretty much the NoBox style. Xover is 3500 hz 12dB L-R
They're supplemented on the low end by a 12" er in a sonotube.
Cheap setup for not alot of cash that yields quite respectable sound for the money, maybe $300 for the whole batch.
John L.
post #21
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110583
Q for the mids is .75, 10" ~.55
The planar tweeter is the Dayton model, and the cabinet is pretty much the NoBox style. Xover is 3500 hz 12dB L-R
They're supplemented on the low end by a 12" er in a sonotube.
Cheap setup for not alot of cash that yields quite respectable sound for the money, maybe $300 for the whole batch.
John L.
bzfcocon said:
Hi,
Yes, I am mostly shooting in the dark
. You may agree or not, but the starting point for me was to run Visaton via first order high pass crossover. Maybe it's subjective, but I don't feel comfortable using anything more than 1st order on a high-pass. I believe that it destroys the sonics of the speaker, more so if you have to employ additional active circuitry to achieve that (even buffers).
Therefore first inclination was to use a 1st order low pass as well on the bass speaker, but I found out that it doesn't perform well.
It may sound unreasonable, but I'd rather experiment with low pass section until I get it match HP, than introduce a second (or fourth) order crossovers for the high-pass....
Vix
OK, now I at least understand (and respect) your reasons.
However, I do not share your point of view. IMHO, a minimal filter/crossover (1st order electrical) has its place for driver combinations that naturally allow for such a solution(usually, by having a smooth roll-off of their own in the crossover region) and should not be forced.
Again, in my opinion, an improperly used minimalistic crossover(= not fitting the drivers and usage) will likely sound worse than a well engineered, more complex one that does fit the actual drivers and crossover situation. Of course, if it can be simplified, then it should be simplified, but no more than it's necessary. And - I'm sorry - but I could never buy that part with "more crossover parts taking away the sonic life of a driver".
It seems to me that you are actually trying to extend the Visaton's part of the game - in which case you could try a LR2 crossover at a lower point (100Hz ? careful with the excursion capability) instead of forcing a 1st order filter. In this way, you could also cut the woofer at the same frequency with the same LR2 slope, which also would ensure phase coherence (180 degree between woofer and FR).
Either way, the woofers should be equalized flat before crossover or the crossover should take the woofer response into account. Unfortunately, this is not trivial without measurements. Have you consider buying a microphone, sound card and for example Arta (free) measurement software ?
However, I do not share your point of view. IMHO, a minimal filter/crossover (1st order electrical) has its place for driver combinations that naturally allow for such a solution(usually, by having a smooth roll-off of their own in the crossover region) and should not be forced.
Again, in my opinion, an improperly used minimalistic crossover(= not fitting the drivers and usage) will likely sound worse than a well engineered, more complex one that does fit the actual drivers and crossover situation. Of course, if it can be simplified, then it should be simplified, but no more than it's necessary. And - I'm sorry - but I could never buy that part with "more crossover parts taking away the sonic life of a driver".
It seems to me that you are actually trying to extend the Visaton's part of the game - in which case you could try a LR2 crossover at a lower point (100Hz ? careful with the excursion capability) instead of forcing a 1st order filter. In this way, you could also cut the woofer at the same frequency with the same LR2 slope, which also would ensure phase coherence (180 degree between woofer and FR).
Either way, the woofers should be equalized flat before crossover or the crossover should take the woofer response into account. Unfortunately, this is not trivial without measurements. Have you consider buying a microphone, sound card and for example Arta (free) measurement software ?
You seem to forget that electrical 1.order at the lower limit of a driver may very well result in more than 6db rolloff I dont think its so far off what Vix is doing
Also last poster seem to "forget" also that Vix uses xo on amps input ... allthough my major concern here is whether this method is reliable enough to calculate and predict an accurate slope
Have you thought about an 8-band woofer Eq from ESP
I dont think its so far off what Vix is doingAlso last poster seem to "forget" also that Vix uses xo on amps input ... allthough my major concern here is whether this method is reliable enough to calculate and predict an accurate slope
Have you thought about an 8-band woofer Eq from ESP
Vix,
Unless you do something to adjust the relative SPLs of the two driver so that the bass driver is 6 to 10 dB more efficient than the full range driver, I do not believe you will ever get the two drivers to work together on an OB. You need to either boost the Beta or attenuate the B200. I think somebody above already suggested a series resistor for the B200 which would seem like a great idea if you want a passive crossover system driven by one amp. You can try and stay as "pure" to your own requirements as you wish but I am not at all optomistic that it will work for you.
Unless you do something to adjust the relative SPLs of the two driver so that the bass driver is 6 to 10 dB more efficient than the full range driver, I do not believe you will ever get the two drivers to work together on an OB. You need to either boost the Beta or attenuate the B200. I think somebody above already suggested a series resistor for the B200 which would seem like a great idea if you want a passive crossover system driven by one amp. You can try and stay as "pure" to your own requirements as you wish but I am not at all optomistic that it will work for you.
tinitus said:You seem to forget that electrical 1.order at the lower limit of a driver may very well result in more than 6db rolloff
Also last poster seem to "forget" also that Vix uses xo on amps input ... allthough my major concern here is whether this method is reliable enough to calculate and predict an accurate slope
I don't forget anything, I just doubt things will work without at least an estimate of the 2 driver responses. Yes, the acoustic slope of the B200 might be close to 12dB/oct, but no one can tell if this integrates well with the woofer's slope and phase.
BTW, Vix said he likes the bass of B200 alone, which, to me, means that it does not roll of that quickly by itself.
Martin: as far as I understand, Vix uses biamping and the crossover before tha amp (passive on B200, active on the woofer). Thus, he can ajust the levels from amps. But this does not solve the overall response issues.
bzfcocon said:
Hi,
If you are used to the sonics of the multi-way speakers, you may not find it troublesome. But if you are used to listening the fullrange speaker, you may notice when the (more complicated) crossover takes away the"life" of a speaker.
bzfcocon [/i]It seems to me that you are actually trying to extend the Visaton's part of the game - in which case you could try a LR2 crossover at a lower point (100Hz ? careful with the excursion capability) instead of forcing a 1st order filter. In this way said:Have you thought about an 8-band woofer Eq from ESP
No, that would be an option.
MJK said:
Thanks. Adjusting the relative SPL's of two drivers shouldn't be that difficult since they are biamped. Just adjusting the gain of one amp should fix that. Btw,I don't think that Visaton is really 96 dB efficient in my case, because I use a Geoff's PLL filter to tame its shout: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99662&highlight=taming+the+shout
So that efficiency match shouldn't be a problem...
Thank you vary much for your input.
I may leave things as they are and patiently wait for Nelson Pass' active
crossover. I am really curious to see how he solved the OB puzzle...
Even If I never achieve proper result, I think it is great to practically learn why something works and why it does not...
Regards,
Vix
Hi Vix - sorry to hear that these are giving you so much trouble.
I've been there, done that. About to do it again. It's not easy.
Like your open baffle, you're going to have to think "outside the box" for your crossover. Forget what works in a box, this isn't a box.
To get that Beta 15 to sound right on open baffle you are going to have to trade away massive amounts of efficiency. Maybe as much a 10dB. Just as Martin stated earlier.
For this combo I would start with about 15mH on the 15 inch and about 22uF on the Visiton. Yes, you read that right. You'll also need a big series resistor in front of the Visaton to get it to level match the Beta 15.
That will get you close, then you can play with a cap and maybe a Zobel on the 15" and fine tune the cap on the Visa.
If you can biamp, then it should be a lot cheaper to use a PLLXO in front of the bass amp. Big inductors are expensive. Once you find the input impedance of your amp, design your PLLXO for a -3dB point of about 90Hz. What this will do (same for the big inductor) is to push up the bottom end of the 15s response. You really need that because you have no box. The 15 will continue to contribute a lot way up, so you are crossing the Visaton much higher than you think you should. But don't worry, it will continue to contribute plenty down below the x-over point.
I know this sounds all wrong, but give it a try. It will get you a lot closer than you are now, and maybe give you the encouragement to go further into fine tuning when you hear that the 2 drivers will actually work together.
I've been there, done that. About to do it again. It's not easy.
Like your open baffle, you're going to have to think "outside the box" for your crossover. Forget what works in a box, this isn't a box.
To get that Beta 15 to sound right on open baffle you are going to have to trade away massive amounts of efficiency. Maybe as much a 10dB. Just as Martin stated earlier.
For this combo I would start with about 15mH on the 15 inch and about 22uF on the Visiton. Yes, you read that right. You'll also need a big series resistor in front of the Visaton to get it to level match the Beta 15.
That will get you close, then you can play with a cap and maybe a Zobel on the 15" and fine tune the cap on the Visa.
If you can biamp, then it should be a lot cheaper to use a PLLXO in front of the bass amp. Big inductors are expensive. Once you find the input impedance of your amp, design your PLLXO for a -3dB point of about 90Hz. What this will do (same for the big inductor) is to push up the bottom end of the 15s response. You really need that because you have no box. The 15 will continue to contribute a lot way up, so you are crossing the Visaton much higher than you think you should. But don't worry, it will continue to contribute plenty down below the x-over point.
I know this sounds all wrong, but give it a try. It will get you a lot closer than you are now, and maybe give you the encouragement to go further into fine tuning when you hear that the 2 drivers will actually work together.
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