After listening for some years,
I don't agree with the non magnetic sounds better theory, I think its dependant where the ferrous is in the circuit..Ie the internals of some tubes are steel..
I prefer the magnetic tantalum resistors etc..but again it depends where they are used. what about laminations in a transformer
oh no transformers must be rubbish<<perhaps they are..
From a ferrous point of view perhaps conduction can be an issue..Ie high current etc. However I believe all parts have a "sound" or effect depends how you look at it. Pick and mix often seems the best option.
Regards
M. Gregg
I don't agree with the non magnetic sounds better theory, I think its dependant where the ferrous is in the circuit..Ie the internals of some tubes are steel..
I prefer the magnetic tantalum resistors etc..but again it depends where they are used. what about laminations in a transformer
oh no transformers must be rubbish<<perhaps they are..From a ferrous point of view perhaps conduction can be an issue..Ie high current etc. However I believe all parts have a "sound" or effect depends how you look at it. Pick and mix often seems the best option.
Regards
M. Gregg
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ALL tubes contain magnetic materials. Ditto output transformers. The demand for "non-magnetic" components for audio is hilariously off base.
You are not polite you are kidding me. You do not know anything at all about my builds I bet.
So… a theory (expressed as a question):
Might it be entirely reasonable to assume that “resistor sound” is directly the result of some resistor compositions being not just non-linear followers of [E = IR] Ohm's Law with respect to both E and I (i.e. E = I·R(E, I)), but also particularly exhibiting non-smooth R(E, I, P(t)) curves?
If yes, then the only solution is to address the aspects of resistance non-linearity directly.
FOR Instance: I was recently helping a friend cobble together a relatively simple 4 stage guitar amplifier. Classic - AX, BZ, SL, 6L6 SE. Passive pickup, 50 mV output. Lots of gain needed. In putting the thing together, I insisted in having a power supply drain capacitor to make the darn thing safer to work on. Calculated out a nice resistor, picked one out of my big ol' drawer. Affixed alligators, and tried to use it shortly after turning off the amp. Fzzzzzzt!
It didn't help that my old tired eyes mistook an brown multiplier band (x₁₀) for an orange one (x₁₀₀₀), thus asking the resistor to sink 100× the current over a short interval, but on inspection, the resistor turned out to be a carbon film unit, and the lack of body-resistance just gave it no “over-capacity” to absorb the few joules of power of the capacitor. It fizzed. Out of curiosity, I found an NOS ½ watt AB with the same wrong brown band, and tried it out. (Carefully measuring resistance, befor and after). No problem. Got a little warm, and that was that. Substituting the orange-band resistor … same warming, just over longer period of time. (As expected.)
The moral of this little story was that CC resistors are DURABLE to rather striking amounts of peak current and voltage. Film resistors aren't. OK.
As I've been reading most-every comment here, it seems like the same “physical issues” likely influence the R(E, I, P) characteristics of resistors. CC is regarded as significantly noisy 'cuz of 1/f noise. And they're reputed to be poor at maintaining R over time, if they absorb water thru their skins and coatings. Metal-film appear quite good in general, but might have significant issues with non-linearity due to film-to-lead-connections. And over-voltages. DF96 or SY cited a case where a resistor, nominally of the right resistance, and acceptable power-rating, became noisy over time due to not being VOLTAGE rated. Interesting. Not exactly unexpected.
My take aways so far are that one really shouldn't use resistors “near their power rating” when there's any chance that they'll be driven to higher peak power even short-term; one should think the same about max-voltage ratings; one should opt away from carbon-film under most circumstances; one should only use composition resistors when high peak dissipation is expected; and oddly, one shouldn't waste terribly much money on fancy-schmancy resistors with hyped-up characteristics, because they don't deliver anything more in the end than relatively inexpensive, quality, commodity resistors deliver.
Is that about right?
GoatGuy
Might it be entirely reasonable to assume that “resistor sound” is directly the result of some resistor compositions being not just non-linear followers of [E = IR] Ohm's Law with respect to both E and I (i.e. E = I·R(E, I)), but also particularly exhibiting non-smooth R(E, I, P(t)) curves?
If yes, then the only solution is to address the aspects of resistance non-linearity directly.
FOR Instance: I was recently helping a friend cobble together a relatively simple 4 stage guitar amplifier. Classic - AX, BZ, SL, 6L6 SE. Passive pickup, 50 mV output. Lots of gain needed. In putting the thing together, I insisted in having a power supply drain capacitor to make the darn thing safer to work on. Calculated out a nice resistor, picked one out of my big ol' drawer. Affixed alligators, and tried to use it shortly after turning off the amp. Fzzzzzzt!
It didn't help that my old tired eyes mistook an brown multiplier band (x₁₀) for an orange one (x₁₀₀₀), thus asking the resistor to sink 100× the current over a short interval, but on inspection, the resistor turned out to be a carbon film unit, and the lack of body-resistance just gave it no “over-capacity” to absorb the few joules of power of the capacitor. It fizzed. Out of curiosity, I found an NOS ½ watt AB with the same wrong brown band, and tried it out. (Carefully measuring resistance, befor and after). No problem. Got a little warm, and that was that. Substituting the orange-band resistor … same warming, just over longer period of time. (As expected.)
The moral of this little story was that CC resistors are DURABLE to rather striking amounts of peak current and voltage. Film resistors aren't. OK.
As I've been reading most-every comment here, it seems like the same “physical issues” likely influence the R(E, I, P) characteristics of resistors. CC is regarded as significantly noisy 'cuz of 1/f noise. And they're reputed to be poor at maintaining R over time, if they absorb water thru their skins and coatings. Metal-film appear quite good in general, but might have significant issues with non-linearity due to film-to-lead-connections. And over-voltages. DF96 or SY cited a case where a resistor, nominally of the right resistance, and acceptable power-rating, became noisy over time due to not being VOLTAGE rated. Interesting. Not exactly unexpected.
My take aways so far are that one really shouldn't use resistors “near their power rating” when there's any chance that they'll be driven to higher peak power even short-term; one should think the same about max-voltage ratings; one should opt away from carbon-film under most circumstances; one should only use composition resistors when high peak dissipation is expected; and oddly, one shouldn't waste terribly much money on fancy-schmancy resistors with hyped-up characteristics, because they don't deliver anything more in the end than relatively inexpensive, quality, commodity resistors deliver.
Is that about right?
GoatGuy
Another ego on the block ?
(in your case, it's quite OK if you're unaware embaRRassment is written with two R's
) Actually, I do.
I've read every post you made at this forum, it's what I always do, with everyone.
My day to day preamplifier is the Classé Omega MKIII, the 2-case did €23k retail here.
During the development, optimisation of the amplifying boards took a number of layout editions, carried out by measurements with a recently calibrated Audio Precision system.
The resistor types to use were also selected, both by AP measurement and by ear. (btw, which is what my Dale comment referred to, it was also a reference to several posts made by Mr. Ed Simon)
You think you can beat that ?
(I love kidding)
Arny, perhaps you might limit your criticisms to technical issues rather than the spelling of someone whose native language is not English. Otherwise, you might not make friends and influence people.
Yes, that must be it. I'm deaf and my system is full of camouflage.
Wow a stunning surprise! Two posts from SY I agree with.
There is no issue that you can measure differences between resistors. If folks want to claim they do not hear any differences I have no trouble believing them. The problem I have is when they presume others cannot. It may just be coincidence that some folks rate resistor preferences that pretty much match what is measured and others do it in reverse order.
Yes some folks like the sound of carbon comp resistors.
Now when we make a recording of any sound we are reducing the information content, if you want to add some coloration to make the recording better match your tastes, that is OK with me.
Now is there a difference between an all acoustic concert and one that uses electronic instruments and amplification? Of course. Is there a correct sound for an electronic instrument?
I think there is more to it,
If you look at the different "audiophile" descriptions and just for a moment think what could cause the words..
Ie cheap metal film are harsh, bright, and splashy treble with veiled mid range.
What could cause that?
The next thing is everthing else Audio grade is trying to remove this..so the effect is
Clear mids with rolled off treble..
or
clear high frequencies but the bass is not so good..if you look at the impact of fitting one type it would seem that the resistors have a non-linearity across frequency but that can't be true..it sounds like the frequencies are being favoured by one type of part.
The impact can be quite strange with trumpets louder than speech..so you get the treble to loud to hear the voices..its quite nuts to be honest.
FB is a good placebo..
Regards
M. Gregg
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Well it should be remembered that all components give you free 'extras' (extra L and C in case of a resistor). When you are doing things up in the GHz range this matters. 10c or less Dales are good for most places (even JC says so). Other than the oft mentioned feedback resistor everything else is generally belief, pride of ownership or delusion.
Jacco creepy? Never
I want to see you selecting a resistor using only your ear. I can just imagine the bench covered in resistors and you laying your ear on each one to check it.
I even lick the desk clean. Indeed known for listening to the strangest critters.
(Sound listening tests of assembled boards, you joker you. The Canadian preamp 3d edition is a dyke jobby)
Just for interest,
You mention inductance in grid stoppers.. and its just a question...what effect do you think making a pigs tail (couple of turns) with the lead of the resistor at the termination of the valve grid would do? Any effect..compared to a Mills type resistor for example..
Also just a thought..what effect would the pigs tail have if the resistor lead out was magnetic compared to copper?
Regards
M. Gregg
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Wilma helped with the Classic reissues and three of them are reference grade material. The CDs are well done, but you'll never sell me on CDs especially for classical. Dabbling around with some of the HD digital formats and I guess I just hear the limitations of solid state which seems to be intertwined with the electrolytic capacitor (which makes carbon resistors look great.) An HD neophyte, but if current DSP can be done in that manner that is interesting. Know quite a few planar freaks in the area and distant but good friend is working towards a second Krell on Apogee Divas (Another has a nice Apogee Stage carccass already partially disassembled for cheap, but sadly stateside in Ohio. Playing with the Stage's bass bulge via DSP might be something.)
Is their a reason (like a technical one) why Asian audiophiles just love vintage parts and components, etc? They do like Allen Bradley's and distant relations might be expendable for anything branded Western Electric. Yes, they like the vintage sound and gestalt, but is their some real techinical advantage to some of the older resistors, like AB's or super precision "non-inductive" wire wound resistors? Arguments can be made for tubes being superior in some areas, but not so sure about old resistors.
Looking at my blu-ray player, you have to be stark raving mad to fill that thing up with bulk foil resistors (good way to go out of business as manufacturer), but my simple tube amps and Loesch phono stage just have a few resistors and if I'm going to take the time to swap them, the bulk foils keep calling my name (own a Placette 125 position relay swapped volume control which I got for $350 and that bulk foil beast just amazes me.) Single ended tube amps (never owned one) are the extreme where the owner/designer should be dreaming about resistors and capacitors at night.
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