Why do you say that. Worse, Mihai (roender) is just asking questions, and he just wants work done or maybe a new crossover without understanding the basics or having any tests done or measuring.
Lowering crossover from 4 to 6uF and lowering the noisy mid frequencies from lower woofer maybe is not another bad idea from strawberry considering OP didn't test any of them.
"Hi,
Nevermind your suggestions are just clueless conjecture and wrong.
They won't lead to a better crossover and are not useful in any sense."
You are entitled to your opinion, but you can't refute my suggestion. The owner is unhappy with the sound, so to say things are good as they are, well... Can you explain why a mid driver with higher impedance should have the bigger capacitor, as compared to the tweeter? Clearly both you and the original designer shares the same poor taste or ignorance. I notice that you always have this distasteful way of attacking people on this forum when ever they don't share your deluded vision of what is a clean, good solution. Moderators should have blocked you long ago.
Nevermind your suggestions are just clueless conjecture and wrong.
They won't lead to a better crossover and are not useful in any sense."
You are entitled to your opinion, but you can't refute my suggestion. The owner is unhappy with the sound, so to say things are good as they are, well... Can you explain why a mid driver with higher impedance should have the bigger capacitor, as compared to the tweeter? Clearly both you and the original designer shares the same poor taste or ignorance. I notice that you always have this distasteful way of attacking people on this forum when ever they don't share your deluded vision of what is a clean, good solution. Moderators should have blocked you long ago.
LOL!
Come on now, you can't just take a crossover that's engineered to do something and shuffle the parts around and make something better, that's an indefensible idea.
I can see increasing or decreasing a resistor value to tame harshness or something of that nature, but you can't seriously suggest completely reversing the hpf circuit or adding a capacitor derived from a personal colonoscopy without illustrating any math or solid idea why, or even mentioning what frequencies you think will be changed for the better.
(Keeps mouth shut, lest I get the nice moderator Mr. Cal Weldon on my tail again...
)
The Monitor Audio GS20 is a very expensive and quite well-engineered and revealing loudspeaker, but perhaps shows the worst vices of ringing metallic cones which 5th element explained nicely.
Crossover modifications for ringing metallic cones like the HiVi M8N, involving tanks and notches, are explained rather well by Mr. Ben "Wolf" Shaffer:
"Tips! Volume 3"... - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video, and Electronics Customer Discussion Forum From Parts-Express.com
I would think that going higher order with steeper slopes is certainly one line of attack, as is modifying crossover frequency:
But a fairly fiendish problem without better measurements as noted. A goodish £60 multimeter would furnish the coil values. It may be that roender is better off getting a smoother setup like Spendor:
)The Monitor Audio GS20 is a very expensive and quite well-engineered and revealing loudspeaker, but perhaps shows the worst vices of ringing metallic cones which 5th element explained nicely.
Crossover modifications for ringing metallic cones like the HiVi M8N, involving tanks and notches, are explained rather well by Mr. Ben "Wolf" Shaffer:
"Tips! Volume 3"... - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video, and Electronics Customer Discussion Forum From Parts-Express.com
I would think that going higher order with steeper slopes is certainly one line of attack, as is modifying crossover frequency:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
But a fairly fiendish problem without better measurements as noted. A goodish £60 multimeter would furnish the coil values. It may be that roender is better off getting a smoother setup like Spendor:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Spendor is generally smoother than Monitor, it is a more laid back sound.
The SP100R2 is a smashing sounding speaker, very good indeed. Bass definition and dynamics are superb as you may expect. Very clean sounding too, great bass (from Bextrene in 2012!) despite what you might think about thin wall construction (tap these and you get a soft, hollow response). Beautifully balanced too, very unfatiguing.
That said it is not audibly as vanishingly smooth as Pluto 2.1 in the crossover between treble and mid, a speaker with those dreaded metal cones!.
Nonetheless those are big speakers that are certainly worth investigating if you have an understanding other arf and are not into the diy thing!
The SP100R2 is a smashing sounding speaker, very good indeed. Bass definition and dynamics are superb as you may expect. Very clean sounding too, great bass (from Bextrene in 2012!) despite what you might think about thin wall construction (tap these and you get a soft, hollow response). Beautifully balanced too, very unfatiguing.
That said it is not audibly as vanishingly smooth as Pluto 2.1 in the crossover between treble and mid, a speaker with those dreaded metal cones!.
Nonetheless those are big speakers that are certainly worth investigating if you have an understanding other arf and are not into the diy thing!
Hehe, I also hate sreten (read love), it's just his way of being nice...
sreten is the Captain Spock of our forum. While his bedside manner is a little raspy at times, it would be quite a loss if he wasn't around.
And pretty deep pockets as I understand, you could probably build a 7.1 system out of revelators for the price of those.
Yup. Spendor use Seas sourced tweeters and I suspect midrange motor system too (with their own polymer cones) these sound very good.
I bet the 7.1 revelator system would get it's *** kicked in the music dep't.
Ultimately the Spendor is for older guys (not into DIY) who want a specific vision of the ultimate BBC style monitor. This they do superbly.
What do you mean? with a high pass?!
In parallel with the inductor it's more like a notch.
mmmmmaybe
Troels Gravensen might have something pretty slick.I really do love those big old (looking) cabs, it'd be cool to have with one of the big Marantz receivers from the 70's, go all retro!
Anyhow, I'll stop derailing now, gots a meeting to attend to.
DrDyna, like sreten, you too have a nasty way of addressing people who's solutions you don't understand or agree with. Do people address you that way in real life? If so, I feel sorry for you then. But I'm not like you, so I'll take the time to explain without being condescending or going down to your groin area to get your attention.
When you have a second order crossover, like in the case with the mid driver, if you put a too big capacitor in it makes the high end of the driver, near the crossover frequency, play far too loud, louder than if no crossover had been present at all. Because the owner of the speakers complain about this type of loud sound in the mids I find it likely that the capacitor is too big. It is definitely too big if a crossover point with the tweeter is sought, because the tweeter has less impedance and the capacitor for the tweeter should then be bigger than the one for the mid driver, but that is not the case. Swapping them out makes sense if you know the theory. And it's just a test. Are you scared of testing, experimenting? It seems like it from the way you kick and scream.
The woofer is already out of phase with the mid driver because of the one inductor, and the woofer probably has nasty, loud break up peaks above 1 kHz which could contribute to the impression of the mids being too loud to the listener. By adding a 20 uF capacitor, who cares about the phase at this point, there will be a greater attenuation of the sound above the original crossover point for the woofer. An inductor alone will not attenuate much because of the rise in impedance of the woofer.
DrDyna and sreten, you are two disrespectful people, I've seen it many times, eager to pick fights, that's all. Your personal lives probably suck and you come here to find perceived victims to bully to feel better about your own problems. But it doesn't work does it? You have to come back and come back because you feel like ****. This is not a good solution for you. You need to call your doctor and get an appointment. He will probably recommend you a psychiatric therapist.
When you have a second order crossover, like in the case with the mid driver, if you put a too big capacitor in it makes the high end of the driver, near the crossover frequency, play far too loud, louder than if no crossover had been present at all. Because the owner of the speakers complain about this type of loud sound in the mids I find it likely that the capacitor is too big. It is definitely too big if a crossover point with the tweeter is sought, because the tweeter has less impedance and the capacitor for the tweeter should then be bigger than the one for the mid driver, but that is not the case. Swapping them out makes sense if you know the theory. And it's just a test. Are you scared of testing, experimenting? It seems like it from the way you kick and scream.
The woofer is already out of phase with the mid driver because of the one inductor, and the woofer probably has nasty, loud break up peaks above 1 kHz which could contribute to the impression of the mids being too loud to the listener. By adding a 20 uF capacitor, who cares about the phase at this point, there will be a greater attenuation of the sound above the original crossover point for the woofer. An inductor alone will not attenuate much because of the rise in impedance of the woofer.
DrDyna and sreten, you are two disrespectful people, I've seen it many times, eager to pick fights, that's all. Your personal lives probably suck and you come here to find perceived victims to bully to feel better about your own problems. But it doesn't work does it? You have to come back and come back because you feel like ****. This is not a good solution for you. You need to call your doctor and get an appointment. He will probably recommend you a psychiatric therapist.
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I stopped reading there, I'm sorry.
I'm really not trying to make you upset strawberry, I'm sorry if I did, but I take great care (most of the time) to make sure that if I'm about to share information with someone else that I've either done it or understand what will happen correctly. If you're going to give advice to an audience of potentially hundreds of people, you should take great care to ensure that your advice is correct.
This sentence that I've singled out is a prime example of what I'm talking about, insisting that a capacitor will actually make a driver louder is nonsense of the highest degree.
Not to mention that he readily says things without an overall explanation. However he always has that explanation up his sleeve should it be necessary, just as it would be in this case. sreten does not generally speak ill of people or against them for the sake of it and only does so if he has a good technical reason for doing so.
It's not exactly nonsense, if one tunes the crossover to have a high and peaky Q it will add in a hump to the response at the expense of a lower input impedance.
I think we can probably assume that the crossover for mid to tweeter in the GS20 is going to be similar to the GS10s response, where we can see that this isn't a problem.
Yes, I see @close to crossover frequency. But it will rise frequencies after crossover frequencies (>4/5kHz) where there might be (lots) of problems, and also system impedance.
Well, if the owner of the speakers only tested my solution...
5th element, you too are wrong. It doesn't matter what the Q of the driver is. If you skew the relationship inductor/capacitor by making the capacitor bigger, no matter what Q, or whatever, the driver will peak out at the crossover frequency by several dB, and sounding distorted, strained while doing so. It will sound like hell. Most likely what is going on with these speakers. 6 uF with such a small inductor? Disaster.
5th element, you too are wrong. It doesn't matter what the Q of the driver is. If you skew the relationship inductor/capacitor by making the capacitor bigger, no matter what Q, or whatever, the driver will peak out at the crossover frequency by several dB, and sounding distorted, strained while doing so. It will sound like hell. Most likely what is going on with these speakers. 6 uF with such a small inductor? Disaster.
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