Down firing horn
Just wondering with respect to your 100hz or 80hz horn have you ever played around with vertical positioning of either horn to make it a down firing horn kind of like what is pictured in the link below?
Down-Firing Straight Edgar Style Mid/Bass Horns - Mr_Steady - High Efficiency Speaker Asylum
Just wondering with respect to your 100hz or 80hz horn have you ever played around with vertical positioning of either horn to make it a down firing horn kind of like what is pictured in the link below?
Down-Firing Straight Edgar Style Mid/Bass Horns - Mr_Steady - High Efficiency Speaker Asylum
I've not attempted this format. If I were to fire the horn towards the floor, I'd place a crescent in the design and attempt to avoid using a reflector. IMHO, reflected sound isn't as articulate as the original sound wave.
135Hz horns alone sound pretty wimpy with very little midbass "snap" in the drums. You could fix it with a another larger midbass driver without a horn that plays between 70-135Hz, but a proper sub is still needed unless you are just listening to singer-song-writers (vocals and a guitar). 12-15" drivers in 80Hz horns is the thing, that would do 80-400Hz. 
Much easier to integrate with a subwoofer at 80Hz. The type of sub is up to you but any good sub would work.
Much easier to integrate with a subwoofer at 80Hz. The type of sub is up to you but any good sub would work.
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I think carpenter made his 135hz horns so he could shift the coverage range higher, to approximately 150 to 650hz with these 135hz horns and have it integrate easier with his paper horn (see his website). For bass duties he is using the very, very large spiral bass horns (again see his web site) which have no trouble going from 150 down to 30hz according to his graphs. He has the listening space to include these very large bass horns and I don't think cares about integrating a subwoofer.
I don't know where mid-bass "snap" occurs in terms of freq range or therefore what horn is needed to cover the mid-bass "snap" range. But in terms of listening distance as I understand it, for a 100hz horn you should be approximately 12 ft away or 1 wavelength for integration. Now I am not sure if that 12 ft distance is measured from the end (exit) of the horn or is measured right where the driver meets the beginning horn in which case you can include the horn length in the 12ft.
In any case you need space for horns. Please correct me if I made any inaccurate statements.
I don't know where mid-bass "snap" occurs in terms of freq range or therefore what horn is needed to cover the mid-bass "snap" range. But in terms of listening distance as I understand it, for a 100hz horn you should be approximately 12 ft away or 1 wavelength for integration. Now I am not sure if that 12 ft distance is measured from the end (exit) of the horn or is measured right where the driver meets the beginning horn in which case you can include the horn length in the 12ft.
In any case you need space for horns. Please correct me if I made any inaccurate statements.
Not much difference between 135 and 150Hz. My sub does not like any of it.
I can sit 1 m in front of the midbass horn and hear it clearly, but considering my horns are stacked 2.2 meters tall I need to back away a few meters to hear them all. 3-4 meters is good, but also 10 meters.
I have not tried a spiral midbass horn covering 30-150 Hz. Could be that the sound is very different from what I get from my sealed sub. The horn would allow for a smaller excursion driver than my Eminence Lab12. What driver did he use? My Lab12 is utterly bad at anything above 90Hz.
I can sit 1 m in front of the midbass horn and hear it clearly, but considering my horns are stacked 2.2 meters tall I need to back away a few meters to hear them all. 3-4 meters is good, but also 10 meters.
I have not tried a spiral midbass horn covering 30-150 Hz. Could be that the sound is very different from what I get from my sealed sub. The horn would allow for a smaller excursion driver than my Eminence Lab12. What driver did he use? My Lab12 is utterly bad at anything above 90Hz.
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Maybe not ?
Sounds like Gedlee crossover point...
Maybe too high for a non horned 15", but special ones (like above: B&C 15"...)
But sounds good with the testimonials for a VOTT (XO < 100 hz for the slam...60 to 80 with A7 VOTT) or any front loaded 15" ?... but particular design: unity horn with the same bottom X0 (<100 hz)...
Well here an important information : the harder point for choosing a mid nass is not the upper limit (around 400 to 800 hz in relation to the design) but the bottom Xo : below 100 hz, ~80 hz ideal ?
These guys made their own woofer using neo magnets and a custom made 28 gram cone: 6moons industry features: La Grande Castine The JBL 2220H that I use has 70 gram cone, which is still rather light.
I did a quick comparison between the Radian 2216 and my JBL 2220H that I use in the range 80-400Hz. The JBL 2220 series is recommended by many to be used above 80hz in midbass horns.
Same:
Overall diameter: 387-388mm (0.01mm difference)
Voice coil diameter: 4"
Sensitivity: 101 dB
QTS: 0.17
FS: 37Hz
QES: 0,17-0.18 QES (0.01 difference)
SD: 0.0889-0.0890 m^2 (0.0001 difference)
RE: 5.6-5.7 Ohm (0.1 difference)
Different:
JBL 2220H vs Radian 2216 Neo
QMS: 5.0 vs 2.721
Xmax: 3.0 mm vs 21.3 mm
BL: 22.5T vs 34.229 TM
Weight: 12.6 kg vs 6.35 kg (ferrite vs neo)
Not much difference. What I don't get is how the parameters of the Radian can look so similar to the JBL 2220H and still have an xmax of 21 mm, and reportedly reach 30Hz in a horn with no subwoofer. I use a LAB12 as regular subwoofer and with its huge rubber surround it has only 13mm Xmax. Radian recommends using the Radian 1226 between 90-900Hz. I don't see how it can reach 30Hz. I should try it out.
Refernces:
http://radianaudio.com/?wpdmact=process&did=MTYuaG90bGluaw
https://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/2220hj.pdf
I did a quick comparison between the Radian 2216 and my JBL 2220H that I use in the range 80-400Hz. The JBL 2220 series is recommended by many to be used above 80hz in midbass horns.
Same:
Overall diameter: 387-388mm (0.01mm difference)
Voice coil diameter: 4"
Sensitivity: 101 dB
QTS: 0.17
FS: 37Hz
QES: 0,17-0.18 QES (0.01 difference)
SD: 0.0889-0.0890 m^2 (0.0001 difference)
RE: 5.6-5.7 Ohm (0.1 difference)
Different:
JBL 2220H vs Radian 2216 Neo
QMS: 5.0 vs 2.721
Xmax: 3.0 mm vs 21.3 mm
BL: 22.5T vs 34.229 TM
Weight: 12.6 kg vs 6.35 kg (ferrite vs neo)
Not much difference. What I don't get is how the parameters of the Radian can look so similar to the JBL 2220H and still have an xmax of 21 mm, and reportedly reach 30Hz in a horn with no subwoofer. I use a LAB12 as regular subwoofer and with its huge rubber surround it has only 13mm Xmax. Radian recommends using the Radian 1226 between 90-900Hz. I don't see how it can reach 30Hz. I should try it out.
Refernces:
http://radianaudio.com/?wpdmact=process&did=MTYuaG90bGluaw
https://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/2220hj.pdf
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21.3 mm ,it's a.... trampoline, or a typo. maybe ? Does a front loaded mid-driver needs so much BL ? Is such a BL good for the feed back on the amp when the cone comes back ? (I mean for the musicality...)
And the length of the voice coil ? shorter = better : transcient, details; less thermal noise... I meam if we talk of mid-bass driver (>80 hz)
Should have a look ar the Davis RCA-15 (light and rigid carbon cone) or the ElectroMagnetSpeaker (ferrite version) 15"... they coul be excellent mid-bass 15" in pair with the JBLs if not Linkwitz transform needed !
Is there a push-pull 15" mid-bass exist but where the front loaded cavity would be a horn à la VOTT ? Or to allow to have a Xo < 80 hz (which the Vott A7 can not do) ? Like the S. Linkwitz open bass sub but here not open ?
a little like the Grande Castine but for the mid bass and in push pull conf ! (Ils sont fous ces français : notice the beds in vertical position à la Carrie movie...)
On you sono tube if you pull a little inside the Lab 12 and put an event in front of the cone... you have a band pass subwoofer
,it's a.... trampoline, or a typo. maybe ? Does a front loaded mid-driver needs so much BL ? Is such a BL good for the feed back on the amp when the cone comes back ? (I mean for the musicality...)And the length of the voice coil ? shorter = better : transcient, details; less thermal noise... I meam if we talk of mid-bass driver (>80 hz)
Should have a look ar the Davis RCA-15 (light and rigid carbon cone) or the ElectroMagnetSpeaker (ferrite version) 15"... they coul be excellent mid-bass 15" in pair with the JBLs if not Linkwitz transform needed !
Is there a push-pull 15" mid-bass exist but where the front loaded cavity would be a horn à la VOTT ? Or to allow to have a Xo < 80 hz (which the Vott A7 can not do) ? Like the S. Linkwitz open bass sub but here not open ?
a little like the Grande Castine but for the mid bass and in push pull conf ! (Ils sont fous ces français
: notice the beds in vertical position à la Carrie movie...)On you sono tube if you pull a little inside the Lab 12 and put an event in front of the cone... you have a band pass subwoofer
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Would Radian make a typo in their own PDF? And then convert it to mm? Naah.
This was not me trying to fix a new sub (or am I?). I was just trying to figure out the before mentioned spiral horn that reached 30Hz using the Radian 1226, which makes a midbass horn starting at 80-400 Hz unnecessary. If so, I would make use of my 8" Fane Studio 8M, because they do sound better than most 15" above 200Hz. And the midbass horn would be slightly smaller.
This was not me trying to fix a new sub (or am I?). I was just trying to figure out the before mentioned spiral horn that reached 30Hz using the Radian 1226, which makes a midbass horn starting at 80-400 Hz unnecessary. If so, I would make use of my 8" Fane Studio 8M, because they do sound better than most 15" above 200Hz. And the midbass horn would be slightly smaller.
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This is my problem ! Academic problem for the moment as I'm not going to build one. But very interested by this "problem" of mid-bass design !
Yes Carpenter seems quite happy with this huge spiral sub and don't need a mid bass below say 130 to 150 hz (my understanding). But find many people saying it's easier to have a mid-bass from 80/100 hz to ??? (400 to 700 is like an agreement for many, but some prefer to climb to use only a 1" CD ).
Find my self easier to go for a sub below 80 to 100 hz and try to find a detailed mid-bass which has a good slam and quick (ok it depends on many things).
Front loaded as Synergys look to sound good in mid-bass : less cones movements, better than a CD for those range ias my poor understanding for the moment. Some says Onken load are better than a Vott A7 and permitt to have the bass as well (so no 3 ways needed).
I was looking for an open design in midbass, but the difficulty of placement, rooms interactions, high L transform EQ needed are more and more a no go for my goal : a system with punch and life in the mid bass (jazz, rock... my actual system is versatil enough withh all music style but low effcienty).
Have to say say than Carpenter's website, like Volvo's one and some given recently to me in another threads are very informative.
liking the sealed sub myself (certainly because good BR are more rare and mine is band pass) but see many good mid-bass are big SD and less cone movement as possible because transcient is needed as punch (air volume moved). So air impedance maid by a front horn seems good... Why Japanese people given up the VOTT for Onken load designs ? Need of space ? Fame ?
Read a lot of testimonials saying a A7 has no such containder for this foot print in a home ! The way as Gedlee use a 15" with a heavy cone/ BL ratio for mid bass stay a mystery... theoricaly as I never heard Suma (certainly rare in France because the shipping and no place to listen it).
So more and more, my understanding is for the mid-bass : 12" to 15", front loaded (80-100 to...) : à la Volvotreater/Carpenter/etc or à la Vott (a doubt because Onken seems an alternative). A CD above at 400 to 700 (best seems Gedlee's horn profile at 700 hz) but you take all or nothing here because of the all in one concept but the sub) !
Well here some different advice between a 8" and a 15" ! for the mid bass ! lighter cone but more cone movement versus heavy cone with small cone movement ! Is there a life for a good mid bass with a XO between around 100 and 400 hz for a big boy system with high efficienty... I doubt more and more of that. Notice i Have two speakers with XO at 125 hz and 150 hz... with good results. They are no DIY and more Hifi (the reason of the lacke of life in mid-bass)
C'est dur a vie !
and yes Radian maid certainly no typo fault... and good launch pad for bugs !
Really interested to have the testimonial of Carpenter between a A7 and a him long mid-bass horn.
Yes Carpenter seems quite happy with this huge spiral sub and don't need a mid bass below say 130 to 150 hz (my understanding). But find many people saying it's easier to have a mid-bass from 80/100 hz to ??? (400 to 700 is like an agreement for many, but some prefer to climb to use only a 1" CD ).
Find my self easier to go for a sub below 80 to 100 hz and try to find a detailed mid-bass which has a good slam and quick (ok it depends on many things).
Front loaded as Synergys look to sound good in mid-bass : less cones movements, better than a CD for those range ias my poor understanding for the moment
. Some says Onken load are better than a Vott A7 and permitt to have the bass as well (so no 3 ways needed).I was looking for an open design in midbass, but the difficulty of placement, rooms interactions, high L transform EQ needed are more and more a no go for my goal : a system with punch and life in the mid bass (jazz, rock... my actual system is versatil enough withh all music style but low effcienty).
Have to say say than Carpenter's website, like Volvo's one and some given recently to me in another threads are very informative
.liking the sealed sub myself (certainly because good BR are more rare and mine is band pass) but see many good mid-bass are big SD and less cone movement as possible because transcient is needed as punch (air volume moved). So air impedance maid by a front horn seems good... Why Japanese people given up the VOTT for Onken load designs ? Need of space ? Fame ?
Read a lot of testimonials saying a A7 has no such containder for this foot print in a home ! The way as Gedlee use a 15" with a heavy cone/ BL ratio for mid bass stay a mystery... theoricaly as I never heard Suma (certainly rare in France because the shipping and no place to listen it).
So more and more, my understanding is for the mid-bass : 12" to 15", front loaded (80-100 to...) : à la Volvotreater/Carpenter/etc or à la Vott (a doubt because Onken seems an alternative). A CD above at 400 to 700 (best seems Gedlee's horn profile at 700 hz) but you take all or nothing here because of the all in one concept but the sub) !
Well here some different advice between a 8" and a 15" ! for the mid bass ! lighter cone but more cone movement versus heavy cone with small cone movement ! Is there a life for a good mid bass with a XO between around 100 and 400 hz for a big boy system with high efficienty... I doubt more and more of that. Notice i Have two speakers with XO at 125 hz and 150 hz... with good results. They are no DIY and more Hifi (the reason of the lacke of life in mid-bass)
C'est dur a vie !
and yes Radian maid certainly no typo fault... and good launch pad for bugs !Really interested to have the testimonial of Carpenter between a A7 and a him long mid-bass horn.
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I use a sealed sub with a Eminence Lab12 between 25-80Hz. Above 90Hz it becomes very dull and I have to use a LR4 crossover not to pollute the upper midbass. It is great for movies, but for music I am not so sure.
About the Vott A7. In my head the horn is way to short to be called a proper horn, but Carpenter had the same thought. He writes: "I've been extremely surprised by the quality of sound coming from the A7 enclosure. I would never have guessed that a short throw horn would be capable of such powerful dynamics. The best part is that they're very, very smooth. If you have a large room, a large system, and you're seeking decent bass/mid-bass/upper bass, then you must give this old classic due consideration."
I have not heard the Onken nor the Vott A7. I did however listen to a Klipsch Cornwall and it had a very musical midbass down to 34 Hz. A bit sloppy and loose bass, but I think I may prefer that kind of bass instead of the sealed Eminence Lab12 home theater subwoofer. I seem to evoke some laughter in experienced audiophiles when I say I like the Corwall's woofer. Lets say I liked the way it was used.
But the 80hz horn is so alive. The kick drum is as fast as the snap drum. This is the thing. To integrate with the very fast and articulate compression drivers I need a fast midbass. Not a sloppy but musical one, like the Klipsch Cornwall (and Onken?).
Btw, the Fane Studio 8M 8" driver I mentioned has 103 dB and low xmax. So it is not part of the 8" bass category of speakers. In a box is would be used above 400Hz, but a horn can push it down to ~150hz.
I use compression drivers and (a big ***) horn that can reach 250Hz, but not with the same strength as a Fane S 8M or a 15". The compression driver does the details at 250Hz, but not the "oomph!" Some speak against such horn perversions to cross at 250Hz. I have tried to highpass at 500Hz but I lost so much detail.
The spiral horn does look impressive!: http://inlowsound.weebly.com/uploads/1/9/8/5/1985965/3981190_orig.jpeg I wonder how the kick drum would sound at around 100hz. As alive as with a 80Hz horn? Looks like Carpenter uses his 80Hz with a 18" driver together with this monster. 18"?? His mids can't be very good.
Life is indeed not easy!
About the Vott A7. In my head the horn is way to short to be called a proper horn, but Carpenter had the same thought. He writes: "I've been extremely surprised by the quality of sound coming from the A7 enclosure. I would never have guessed that a short throw horn would be capable of such powerful dynamics. The best part is that they're very, very smooth. If you have a large room, a large system, and you're seeking decent bass/mid-bass/upper bass, then you must give this old classic due consideration."
I have not heard the Onken nor the Vott A7. I did however listen to a Klipsch Cornwall and it had a very musical midbass down to 34 Hz. A bit sloppy and loose bass, but I think I may prefer that kind of bass instead of the sealed Eminence Lab12 home theater subwoofer. I seem to evoke some laughter in experienced audiophiles when I say I like the Corwall's woofer. Lets say I liked the way it was used.
But the 80hz horn is so alive. The kick drum is as fast as the snap drum. This is the thing. To integrate with the very fast and articulate compression drivers I need a fast midbass. Not a sloppy but musical one, like the Klipsch Cornwall (and Onken?).
Btw, the Fane Studio 8M 8" driver I mentioned has 103 dB and low xmax. So it is not part of the 8" bass category of speakers. In a box is would be used above 400Hz, but a horn can push it down to ~150hz.
I use compression drivers and (a big ***) horn that can reach 250Hz, but not with the same strength as a Fane S 8M or a 15". The compression driver does the details at 250Hz, but not the "oomph!" Some speak against such horn perversions to cross at 250Hz. I have tried to highpass at 500Hz but I lost so much detail.
The spiral horn does look impressive!: http://inlowsound.weebly.com/uploads/1/9/8/5/1985965/3981190_orig.jpeg I wonder how the kick drum would sound at around 100hz. As alive as with a 80Hz horn? Looks like Carpenter uses his 80Hz with a 18" driver together with this monster. 18"?? His mids can't be very good.
Life is indeed not easy!
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I have one 2225 that I have not tested yet. I will check back in a few months.
How come musique concrete (see link above) went for an even lighter custom made cone at 28 grams? The JBL 2220H is 70 gram according to the JBL data sheet. If you are not playing very loud, I think a light cone is best. AEspeakers.com TD Series TD15M also has 70 gram cone and is well regarded. Have not seen anyone using in a horn though. The 2225 is 105 grams.
I will check back in a few months. How come musique concrete (see link above) went for an even lighter custom made cone at 28 grams? The JBL 2220H is 70 gram according to the JBL data sheet. If you are not playing very loud, I think a light cone is best. AEspeakers.com TD Series TD15M also has 70 gram cone and is well regarded. Have not seen anyone using in a horn though. The 2225 is 105 grams.
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