Some good alternative in this part of the world :
Products : look at the B15 mkII
grave davis acoustics 40rca15 400mm : 40 RCA 15
400-2000 SUPRAVOX Supravox 400 GMF
Most of the time those drivers are better than the Pro ones for our needs (better voice coil diameter/length of voice coil) like some JBL and Altec are also... spec are close, this is not by luck I believe !
The price is always high in relation to some goods pro ones like B&C, faital and so on... but because taxes they are an alternative for europeans.
But see more and more ancients fellow going to a Synergy horn concept given up Vott, Onken, tapped horn, or long front loaded horn ! I'm pretty sure some brands will not respect the patent in the jungle of the new wolrd economy and we will see more and more ready made DIY synergys like finished synergys speakers... Not because this is more the jungle but because it's very expensive to protect his patent in such countries...
Products : look at the B15 mkII
grave davis acoustics 40rca15 400mm : 40 RCA 15
400-2000 SUPRAVOX Supravox 400 GMF
Most of the time those drivers are better than the Pro ones for our needs (better voice coil diameter/length of voice coil) like some JBL and Altec are also... spec are close, this is not by luck I believe !
The price is always high in relation to some goods pro ones like B&C, faital and so on... but because taxes they are an alternative for europeans.
But see more and more ancients fellow going to a Synergy horn concept given up Vott, Onken, tapped horn, or long front loaded horn ! I'm pretty sure some brands will not respect the patent in the jungle of the new wolrd economy and we will see more and more ready made DIY synergys like finished synergys speakers... Not because this is more the jungle but because it's very expensive to protect his patent in such countries...
Great!
EMS speakers seem the most interesting as you could in theory change the parameters with your field coil power supply. That could be useful, since most speakers are not made for horns.
I was talking to a Hentai at DIYaudio.com, a guy from Romania, who makes field coils and he showed parameters of a 12" that at least in horn resp was the best midbass horn driver I have seen... in a horn resp graph. He also showed a way to convert a JBL 2220 to field coil.
Field Coil Conversion JBL 2220H - Project Ryu Blog
EMS speakers seem the most interesting as you could in theory change the parameters with your field coil power supply. That could be useful, since most speakers are not made for horns.
I was talking to a Hentai at DIYaudio.com, a guy from Romania, who makes field coils and he showed parameters of a 12" that at least in horn resp was the best midbass horn driver I have seen... in a horn resp graph. He also showed a way to convert a JBL 2220 to field coil.
Field Coil Conversion JBL 2220H - Project Ryu Blog
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I have one 2225 that I have not tested yet.I will check back in a few months.
How come musique concrete (see link above) went for an even lighter custom made cone at 28 grams? The JBL 2220H is 70 gram according to the JBL data sheet. If you are not playing very loud, I think a light cone is best. AEspeakers.com TD Series TD15M also has 70 gram cone and is well regarded. Have not seen anyone using in a horn though. The 2225 is 105 grams.
The 2220 cone is really a guitar speaker that flexes as a direct radiator and makes funny harmonics for playing guitar, in a horn into a rather fifferent acoustic air load it is worse.. the 2225 does not do this and works well in short straight horns up to 700 cycles or so. The TD speakers are IMO built to sell to "high end" types that would never consider a real horn in their precious high end playback. - i think that's why you normally see them in the weak chinned BR boxes.
Notice than EMS like Supravox maid also classic drivers with good spec. Their magnet line is good at EMS, they made it themselves (it was Fertin speaker before : the father designed the line and very precise tools to factory the drivers and her daughter is following him ! EMS has a strong reputation here as Fertin used to maid excelent pro driver and some audiophile ones ).
They like the quarter wave load at EMS...
Eldam, Rewind
I may have mentioned Supravox speakers in another thread but give a look at that company's drivers. I own the 215-2000 field coils and they are excellent but expensive if you are looking for an 8" driver. They also make an alnico version of that speaker.
I have also listened to the Cessaro Chopin speakers many times and they use an 11" Supravox driver in a back loaded horn that has fantastic mid bass. Some of their drivers should sound great in a front loaded horn. Plus they are made n your side of the pond.
I may have mentioned Supravox speakers in another thread but give a look at that company's drivers. I own the 215-2000 field coils and they are excellent but expensive if you are looking for an 8" driver. They also make an alnico version of that speaker.
I have also listened to the Cessaro Chopin speakers many times and they use an 11" Supravox driver in a back loaded horn that has fantastic mid bass. Some of their drivers should sound great in a front loaded horn. Plus they are made n your side of the pond.
Yeah, Supravox are known for their fullrange speakers. Some DIYers regard them as the best out there. Supravox 215GMFHow to tweak this driver to better performance
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Wow, this thread has been busy as of late!
I use the 8" B&C 8PE21 in a 135 hz mid bass horn. My spiral bass horns match up well at 135 hz. I much prefer the sonics of the Radian Neo 2216 over that of the Lab 12, but, alas, the Lab 12s are in my home and the Radian's are for a customer of mine in Manhattan. The spiral bass horns are so smooth that they can easily cross at 150 hz (or higher). The drum notes are extremely punchy, crisp, quick, and any other superlative you can conjure. I'm guessing the new spiral bass combo would perform well at 200 hz. This is why I'm switching to the 8" mid bass driver. Because it's so small, it's extremely fast, accurate, etc. It also blends beautifully with the paper horns.
Great discussion you guys are having!
I use the 8" B&C 8PE21 in a 135 hz mid bass horn. My spiral bass horns match up well at 135 hz. I much prefer the sonics of the Radian Neo 2216 over that of the Lab 12, but, alas, the Lab 12s are in my home and the Radian's are for a customer of mine in Manhattan. The spiral bass horns are so smooth that they can easily cross at 150 hz (or higher). The drum notes are extremely punchy, crisp, quick, and any other superlative you can conjure. I'm guessing the new spiral bass combo would perform well at 200 hz. This is why I'm switching to the 8" mid bass driver. Because it's so small, it's extremely fast, accurate, etc. It also blends beautifully with the paper horns.
Great discussion you guys are having!
Welcome to the discussion! I have been inspired by the Inlow site for many years now.
The 8" B&C 8PE21 was mentioned in discussions of finding an alternative to the obsolete Fane Studio 8M, so it is probably a good one. When it comes to 8" above 2-300Hz any good fullranger may do the trick, like the Supravox. I tried the Saba Greencone in a 150Hz horn and it was a little sweeter than the Fane but not as punchy (if you can call something that rolls off at 150 punchy).
I have a few questions about your setup:
How does the 80Hz horn compare to the spiral bass horn? One objection I have towards your 80Hz horn is using an 18" driver. I think already 15" is too big, since the horn should be crossed between 80-400hz and need to be able to play good mids. Maybe with a good 15" you would have liked the 80Hz better than the spiral horn.
Do you notice and time alignment issues or warped sounds coming from the very long horn, than compared to regular subwoofers or the shorter 80hz horn? Is time alignment something you care about?
How can the Radian 1226 have 21mm xmax and still be considered a good horn driver?
About the Eminence Lab12 - it seems like they made it play between 30-90Hz but not a Hz higher.
The 8" B&C 8PE21 was mentioned in discussions of finding an alternative to the obsolete Fane Studio 8M, so it is probably a good one. When it comes to 8" above 2-300Hz any good fullranger may do the trick, like the Supravox. I tried the Saba Greencone in a 150Hz horn and it was a little sweeter than the Fane but not as punchy (if you can call something that rolls off at 150 punchy).
I have a few questions about your setup:
How does the 80Hz horn compare to the spiral bass horn? One objection I have towards your 80Hz horn is using an 18" driver. I think already 15" is too big, since the horn should be crossed between 80-400hz and need to be able to play good mids. Maybe with a good 15" you would have liked the 80Hz better than the spiral horn.
Do you notice and time alignment issues or warped sounds coming from the very long horn, than compared to regular subwoofers or the shorter 80hz horn? Is time alignment something you care about?
How can the Radian 1226 have 21mm xmax and still be considered a good horn driver?
About the Eminence Lab12 - it seems like they made it play between 30-90Hz but not a Hz higher.
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Welcome to the discussion! I have been inspired by the Inlow site for many years now.
The 8" B&C 8PE21 was mentioned in discussions of finding an alternative to the obsolete Fane Studio 8M, so it is probably a good one. When it comes ot 8" above 2-300Hz any good fullranger may do the trick, like the supravox. I tried the Saba Greencone in a 150Hz horn and it was a little sweeter than the Fane but not as punchy.
I have a few questions about your setup:
How does the 80Hz horn compare to the spiral bass horn? One objection I have towards your 80Hz horn is using an 18" driver. I think already 15" is too big, since the horn should be crossed between 80-400hz and need to be able to play good mids. Maybe with a good 15" you would have liked the 80Hz better than the spiral horn.
Do you notice and time alignment issues or warped sounds coming from the very long horn, than compared to regular subwoofers or the shorter 80hz horn? Is time alignment something you care about?
How can the Radian 1226 have 21mm xmax and still be considered a good horn driver?
About the Eminence Lab12 - it seems like they made it play between 30-90Hz but not a Hz higher.
A full range driver is fine IF it has a strong motor. I haven't run Hornresp sims with the likes of Fostex, or the leading competition, but I have run it with TangBand drivers. They fall flat on their face when coupled to my little mid bass horns. Perhaps Fostex will prove equal to the task, but the B&C is very affordable and sounds sweet.
I agree with you: I don't like running large drivers in the mid bass--the 80 hz horn with the JBL 2240 was powerful, but not detailed enough for my liking. The B&C 12PE32 is exceptionally powerful, but gives the system a bass heavy quality when coupled to my spiral bass horn. The spiral bass horn is glorious with the Lab 12 up to 135 hz (but I intend to replace the Lab 12s with a 12" equal to the Radian Neo 2216--if I can locate such a beast), and blends quite nicely with the 8" driver/horn combo. That being said, the Radian Neo 2216 is going to be the grand master--it's so clean and beautiful sounding at higher mid bass frequencies that it makes the Lab 12 sound lowly.
I honestly don't understand how the Radian Neo 2216 can have an Xmax of 21mm and still obtain the high efficiency claimed in the specs. Something seems incorrect. Still, the driver is capable and has handled, with no ill effects, 300 watts during initial tests. I ran subwoofer audio test music through it and was extremely impressed with the response. Mind you, this was just one horn segment (the other segment was being fabricated at the time of the audio tests). It takes two segments to complete one bass horn.
Time alignment is always an issue with a large bass horn. Though slight, a 10 millisecond delay is enough to make the bass sound a bit sluggish--but only a bit.
I've solved the time delay issue by incorporating the MiniDSP 2x8 into my system. I keep it in the digital domain when listening to CD music and use the on board DACs as the final conversion to analogue for the power amps. With the MiniDSP 2x8, I get time delay management (up to 9 milliseconds), parametric EQ, crossovers (there are 4 segments) up to 8th order, and gain control for my sub bass, mid bass, mid-range/treble. It's a rather fantastic solution and sounds fabulous.
The only quirk regarding the MiniDSP is when you ask it to convert an analogue input to digital, then back to analogue. It has to do this when I run the projector/receiver.
Fall flat is a good expression for the Saba Greencone. I liked the higher detail, but it was not always so convincing.
That has always been my thought, that 12-15" drivers should not be used higher than 200hz. I will happily reinstate The Fane Studio 8M once the sub and midbass situation is under control.
I am seriously considering replacing my 80-400Hz midbass horn (JBL 2220H) with a spiral bass horn or similar. One concern is if the 80Hz horn is more tuned for midbass, and the long spiral horn is more tuned for sub frequencies. Every horn is better at a certain range.
I have the Minidsp 4x10HD, the bigger brother of the 2x8, and it is very useful. I have not fiddled too much with delay because I am not so sensitive to time alignment with my short horns. The deepest horn is about 1.1 m. You should find an another (analog?) solution for processing in the long run. Minidsp DACs are too simple and digital filters have pretty low resolution. I am constantly on the hunt for a good analog solution. I will probably end up with a mix of digital and analog passive xo.
That has always been my thought, that 12-15" drivers should not be used higher than 200hz. I will happily reinstate The Fane Studio 8M once the sub and midbass situation is under control.
I am seriously considering replacing my 80-400Hz midbass horn (JBL 2220H) with a spiral bass horn or similar. One concern is if the 80Hz horn is more tuned for midbass, and the long spiral horn is more tuned for sub frequencies. Every horn is better at a certain range.
I have the Minidsp 4x10HD, the bigger brother of the 2x8, and it is very useful. I have not fiddled too much with delay because I am not so sensitive to time alignment with my short horns. The deepest horn is about 1.1 m. You should find an another (analog?) solution for processing in the long run. Minidsp DACs are too simple and digital filters have pretty low resolution. I am constantly on the hunt for a good analog solution. I will probably end up with a mix of digital and analog passive xo.
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Yes, Thanks Mr Carpenter for your great web site.
How do you find the mid-bass details/"Ompfh" ratio with your A7 and its particular driver in yours (not an Altec driver if I readed well your description) in relation to your 80 hz + mid bass horn ?
What are, please, according your great experience (many designs maid) the best spec (trade off) choice for a driver in mid-bas for- a good ratio of quick as details in the same time ? (question for a mid-bass >=80-100 hz)
Low Xmass with strong BLand greater Sd or littlier Sd (as the 8" you describe) ? Here I assume the trade off because no Xo in my mind in the 200 to 300 hz but a "wide-band" mid-bass (80-100 hz to 400-700 hz) (with Active and 4" if treble is missed only)
I see only one design like the smart thread around synergies to swap such a project or an Onken for the two first items (bass and mid-bass)! But I have a doubt in a home environment for music only with synergies designs. Because synergies seem to need a bigger distance between it and the listener...a little like the big efficienty horn speakers with a bad time alignement !
PS: Yes the Supravox 215 GMF is known for its great mid-bass : details and omphf : but I'm not sure it's better (as wide-bander) than a dedicated Mid-bass for our needs... even with some EQ to pad off the higher fhz!
.
I like the idea of an enclosure with a natural Low-pass mechanical design to avoid more than a first or second electrical XO filter. But here is this not an urban myth than a electrical XO superior to the first order is wasting the "ompfh" because the big coil (active better in this point of view ?) ?
How do you find the mid-bass details/"Ompfh" ratio with your A7 and its particular driver in yours (not an Altec driver if I readed well your description) in relation to your 80 hz + mid bass horn ?
What are, please, according your great experience (many designs maid) the best spec (trade off) choice for a driver in mid-bas for- a good ratio of quick as details in the same time ? (question for a mid-bass >=80-100 hz)
Low Xmass with strong BLand greater Sd or littlier Sd (as the 8" you describe) ? Here I assume the trade off because no Xo in my mind in the 200 to 300 hz but a "wide-band" mid-bass (80-100 hz to 400-700 hz) (with Active and 4" if treble is missed only)
I see only one design like the smart thread around synergies to swap such a project or an Onken for the two first items (bass and mid-bass)! But I have a doubt in a home environment for music only with synergies designs. Because synergies seem to need a bigger distance between it and the listener...a little like the big efficienty horn speakers with a bad time alignement !
PS: Yes the Supravox 215 GMF is known for its great mid-bass : details and omphf : but I'm not sure it's better (as wide-bander) than a dedicated Mid-bass for our needs... even with some EQ to pad off the higher fhz!
.
I like the idea of an enclosure with a natural Low-pass mechanical design to avoid more than a first or second electrical XO filter. But here is this not an urban myth than a electrical XO superior to the first order is wasting the "ompfh" because the big coil (active better in this point of view ?) ?
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I misstated my minidsp, it's actually the 4x10. I was looking at the software on my desktop and thought it was the model. The mini 4x10 has 24bit/96k resolution. This is quite good in my opinion.
I'm having extremely good luck with the Mini 4x10. I would like to discover an analogue solution (a little bit purer sounding), but for the moment am quite content. There are trade offs, but the mini has so many pluses that it will remain in my home for the time being. I am extremely sensitive to time alignment for some reason, so that's another reason I like the mini. With the addition of 9 milliseconds of time alignment, my bass is extremely quick and potent.
The spiral bass horn is a fantastic beast, and quite capable of handling nuance in a manner the belies its great size. Should you decide to fabricate a set (two segments per channel), you'll never leave you home.....
Active XO is far superior to passive in the first crossover point. I feel that a big choke is going to harm the sonics and introduce insertion losses that I find unacceptable.
Regarding natural roll off of the driver/horn, I've noticed there's a great deal of importance here. My 100 hz mid bass horns with the 12" B&C 12PE32s sound bass heavy with my spiral horns, but with the 8" B&C 8PE21s the heaviness goes away and the top end become more transparent. In fact, I was able to reduce the EQ on the top end of my paper horns whens I added the 135 hz mid bass horn.
I haven't played around with the A7 in years. The cabinet I had was fabricated in a rather flimsy manner (not my doing!) and my wife could hear the horn's flairs resonating, thus ruining the listening experience for her. Still, I remember enjoying them a great deal. They were loaded with the defunct EVM 15" drivers. I think their extension/broad bandwidth is what drew me to them. They were easy to integrate into the sound system.
hi Carpenter
Any more on the 8PE21 horn?
I appreciate the interest. I'll be posting the plans on my website in the near future.
Let me get this right? To have a stereo spiral bass horn, which one should because 200Hz is almost midrange. Two horns on each side, so four Radian Neo 1226 for 4x$800=$3200, and 1000kg of building material to make four spiral horns? That's Commitment! One day, perhaps...
I am also curious about the 8" horn. But I will not use it unless I have working bass horns, because I can't cross 25-80Hz subwoofer, 80-200Hz midbass horn, and 200-500Hz Fane S 8M, plus all the compression drivers. 80-200Hz will just sound like a blob, and I don't have that many amps anyway.
I use 1st order passive XO for my smaller horns, with okay results. I will do it properly the day I can afford five high quality tube amps with 45 tubes.
If you like Minidsp you will love FIR. Some bass horn builders in Sweden have begun using it. It is supposed to be even more advanced and difficult to set up. http://www.minidsp.com/applications/dsp-basics/fir-vs-iir-filtering
Then I may end up with modifying a highpass by swapping some components in the tube amp, if I ever figure it out. Or use a smaller output transformer which will not have much bass. Or make a PLLXO, but then I have to be careful to match the impedances at line-level.
I am also curious about the 8" horn. But I will not use it unless I have working bass horns, because I can't cross 25-80Hz subwoofer, 80-200Hz midbass horn, and 200-500Hz Fane S 8M, plus all the compression drivers. 80-200Hz will just sound like a blob, and I don't have that many amps anyway.
I use 1st order passive XO for my smaller horns, with okay results.
I will do it properly the day I can afford five high quality tube amps with 45 tubes.If you like Minidsp you will love FIR. Some bass horn builders in Sweden have begun using it. It is supposed to be even more advanced and difficult to set up. http://www.minidsp.com/applications/dsp-basics/fir-vs-iir-filtering
Then I may end up with modifying a highpass by swapping some components in the tube amp, if I ever figure it out. Or use a smaller output transformer which will not have much bass. Or make a PLLXO, but then I have to be careful to match the impedances at line-level.
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I appreciate the interest. I'll be posting the plans on my website in the near future.
I'll await it wih baited breath
Can I ask you about listening distances with your various horns 80/100/135? I've no access to listen/test
Let me get this right? To have a stereo you need two horns on each side, so one need four Radian Neo 1226 for 4x$800=$3200, and 2000 ibs of building material to make four spiral horns? That's Commitment! One day, perhaps...
I am also curious about the 8" horn. But I will not use it unless I have working bass horns, because I can't cross 25-80Hz subwoofer, 80-200Hz midbass horn, and 200-500Hz Fane S 8M, plus all the compression drivers. 80-200Hz will just sound like a blob, and I don't have that many amps anyway.
I use 1st order passive XO for my smaller horns, with okay results.
Baby steps. Start out with one spiral horn segment. Listen to it for awhile. Use a less expensive driver, or contact me for a better price on the Radian Neo 2216 (I am a manufacturer, you know).
Being an audio addict, you'll crave more bass fulfillment and your desire will propell you forward. Once you begin, there's no turning back. Hahaaaaaaaa
I'll await it wih baited breath
Can I ask you about listening distances with your various horns 80/100/135? I've no access to listen/test
In that case, I'd better hurry!
My listening distance is roughly 15 feet. The mid/treble horns are spaced roughly 16 feet apart
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