Bob Brines said:
Done. Good sound at modest volume. Harsh screechy sound at higher volume. Does not go as high or as low or as flat as multi-driver high end systems. Not much to look at; easy for the average user to destroy with wattage.
And Scottmoose:
'For e.g., I prefer the top end to be rolled off from about 15-16KHz, despite (or possibly because of ) my hearing still being good for 20KHz). YMMV as always.'
I'm with ya. I'm 33 and I prefer to about 12khz, no more, as I feel that any higher detracts from the presentation. I can't say why I feel this way. I really have no explanation.
Maybe the preference for rolled off top end is from listening to things like FE20x's?
I find them pretty harsh, even with phase plugs.
They were an expensive start into the FR trip for me, but the poor highs is what got me looking in other directions.
But that's another problem with "full"range drivers, trying to go to high, and/or to low.
I haven't heard a "fullrange" yet that I didn't sound better to me with a good tweeter...
I find them pretty harsh, even with phase plugs.
They were an expensive start into the FR trip for me, but the poor highs is what got me looking in other directions.
But that's another problem with "full"range drivers, trying to go to high, and/or to low.
I haven't heard a "fullrange" yet that I didn't sound better to me with a good tweeter...
InclinedPlane:
Well, Bass Reflex doesn't have the bandwidth in the damping action of a good TL or horn. The larger bandwidth of resonant operation helps damp cone motion over a bigger range. If you like a 12kHz top end, give a listen to Fostex FF225k in a big TL. It is much cleaner than the whizzer models, at the expense of an earlier treble rolloff.
There are those who like BOTH types of systems. That's me. I love a good single driver, but couldn't live with them, as I like relatively 'dense' music, and they just don't cope well. A "FAST" type design (Fullrange assisted) with a wideband mid and a sub and supertweeter is usually more my speed, though I'm playing with horns now (which require serious crossover chops to get right), and in a year, who knows. Variety is the spice of life!
Well, Bass Reflex doesn't have the bandwidth in the damping action of a good TL or horn. The larger bandwidth of resonant operation helps damp cone motion over a bigger range. If you like a 12kHz top end, give a listen to Fostex FF225k in a big TL. It is much cleaner than the whizzer models, at the expense of an earlier treble rolloff.
There are those who like BOTH types of systems. That's me. I love a good single driver, but couldn't live with them, as I like relatively 'dense' music, and they just don't cope well. A "FAST" type design (Fullrange assisted) with a wideband mid and a sub and supertweeter is usually more my speed, though I'm playing with horns now (which require serious crossover chops to get right), and in a year, who knows. Variety is the spice of life!
Yea badman I have used helper woofers with my fullrange drivers and that is an element here to stay. I also agree they need to be large - not less than 10". I use two 15s and they never see more than 2mm of travel and 90% of the time 1mm or less. The output of two 15s even at 1mm is plentiful.
Interesting note about the 225k. I hadn't considered it. I think I shied away from it because of the 'rottable' foam and integrated metal dome similar to what soured me on the otherwise wonderful F200A. Do you have any other impressions of the 225k?
Interesting note about the 225k. I hadn't considered it. I think I shied away from it because of the 'rottable' foam and integrated metal dome similar to what soured me on the otherwise wonderful F200A. Do you have any other impressions of the 225k?
I haven't bought a copy for a couple of years. Glanced at, in W. H. Smiths. Unutterable drivel, like all hifi mags.
serenechaos said:
Nope, I apply that universally to FR units, multiways, the lot. Doesn't matter what the drivers are, I just dislike bright sounding systems, i.e. something that remains flat (or, God help us, peaks) above ~15KHz. They give me a screaming headache.
InclinedPlane said:
Well, modern foam is less susceptible to rot, and should last quite some time. The metal dome is similar to the F200A, it's directly coupled to the VC former from what I can tell and is meant to be a tweeter of sorts. That said, it's not terribly effective, or rather, it's well damped, so there's no harsh top end nasties. It's a very dynamic driver with surprising bass capability, but then, if you're used to 15's moving visibly, you might well overdrive it. It's got a coil very close to the gap length, so you can't let it excurt too much before it starts soft-distorting. The distortion at higher output isn't as bad as the tiny (.3mm) Xmax would indicate, but for the levels it sounds like you're fond of, you'll absolutely need to high-pass it.
It's (probably) my favorite wide-band mid, it's a (very extended) pure mid more than a midwoof or a midtweet.
Cal,
Yeah, I've used helper woofers & tweeters both.
The comment was in reference to the quality of the highs some FRs have, particuarlarly those with whizzers.
They hurt my ears, and if I listen long enough, like Scott said, give me a headache. I damp, or cut off the whizzers & add a tweeter, sometimes @ ~ 10K.
A good tweeter, a cheap one is as bad, or worse...
Horns have a wide bandwidth???
You must be talking about BLHs.
And combining everything...
What comes out the front of the driver, and what comes out the back, horn loaded, and the TL action, from the resonate length.
Actual horn-loading is a pretty limited bandwidth.
One of it's shortcomings, along with size...
I call FLHs horns, BLHs are, well, different...
But what are BVRs???
Look like bass reflex with a two big tapered vents?
But don't have the double bump FR?
I'm building a pair for 138s even though I don't know a thing about 'em.
Leap of faith.
Hopefully better than sealed boxes were!
r
Yeah, I've used helper woofers & tweeters both.
The comment was in reference to the quality of the highs some FRs have, particuarlarly those with whizzers.
They hurt my ears, and if I listen long enough, like Scott said, give me a headache. I damp, or cut off the whizzers & add a tweeter, sometimes @ ~ 10K.
A good tweeter, a cheap one is as bad, or worse...
Horns have a wide bandwidth???
You must be talking about BLHs.
And combining everything...
What comes out the front of the driver, and what comes out the back, horn loaded, and the TL action, from the resonate length.
Actual horn-loading is a pretty limited bandwidth.
One of it's shortcomings, along with size...
I call FLHs horns, BLHs are, well, different...
But what are BVRs???
Look like bass reflex with a two big tapered vents?
But don't have the double bump FR?
I'm building a pair for 138s even though I don't know a thing about 'em.
Leap of faith.
Hopefully better than sealed boxes were!
r
But what are BVRs???
Look like bass reflex with a two big tapered vents?
But don't have the double bump FR?
Ok, me bad, I was just guessing off the graph in the 138 thread.
Are you supposed to line the insides?
Or stuff them?
Wool or anything?
There wasn't a Supra Baffle on the drawing, is there supposed to be one?
How big is that triangular piece in the back of the box supposed to be? Looks like about 1 1/2" high?
Then the "Big Vent" doesn't "load" off the floor?
So it can be raised to listening height?
(Much better than angling back, you aren't stuck @ one listening distance, or a sub can go underneath).
r
Look like bass reflex with a two big tapered vents?
But don't have the double bump FR?
planet10 said:
Ok, me bad, I was just guessing off the graph in the 138 thread.
Are you supposed to line the insides?
Or stuff them?
Wool or anything?
There wasn't a Supra Baffle on the drawing, is there supposed to be one?
How big is that triangular piece in the back of the box supposed to be? Looks like about 1 1/2" high?
Then the "Big Vent" doesn't "load" off the floor?
So it can be raised to listening height?
(Much better than angling back, you aren't stuck @ one listening distance, or a sub can go underneath).
r
Rolled off top end?
You know, I don't think so. Was just emailing someone about this earlier. So many tweeters sound phony to me. More fake sounding when I was in my 20s than now, 25 years later, but still fake sounding. I think we are all sensitive to different things. Most of the top end "sparkle" and "air" so beloved of audiophiles sounds artificial to me, at best, harsh and annoying at worst. I just don't hear that stuff in real life. Or at least don't notice it.
I would push the limit a bit above 12K, but that's the ballpark. Wonder why some of us are like that? Innate or learned?
InclinedPlane said:
serenechaos said:
You know, I don't think so. Was just emailing someone about this earlier. So many tweeters sound phony to me. More fake sounding when I was in my 20s than now, 25 years later, but still fake sounding. I think we are all sensitive to different things. Most of the top end "sparkle" and "air" so beloved of audiophiles sounds artificial to me, at best, harsh and annoying at worst. I just don't hear that stuff in real life. Or at least don't notice it.
I would push the limit a bit above 12K, but that's the ballpark. Wonder why some of us are like that? Innate or learned?
need to get on the same page with nomenclature
by "horns" do you mean FLH, BLH or both?
I'm refering to FLH.
by "bandwidth" i don't just mean how many octaves it will cover,
or how efficient it is, but where it sounds good...
sure, compression ratio (throat area to driver area, with cone or compression driver) is part of it, changes bandwidth, and efficiency.
But a FLH is still a narrow bandwidth animal by nature, throat size isn't going to make it wide band, much less fullrange.
Going for sound quality, I don't want a large throat anyway, and I do want high efficiency.
by "horns" do you mean FLH, BLH or both?
I'm refering to FLH.
by "bandwidth" i don't just mean how many octaves it will cover,
or how efficient it is, but where it sounds good...
sure, compression ratio (throat area to driver area, with cone or compression driver) is part of it, changes bandwidth, and efficiency.
But a FLH is still a narrow bandwidth animal by nature, throat size isn't going to make it wide band, much less fullrange.
Going for sound quality, I don't want a large throat anyway, and I do want high efficiency.
I've read this whole thread and this is the first thing that struck a response from me.
I've been listening to WAV files at 32KHz. For some reason the reduced treble sounds a bit better to me. Cymbals seem to crash more like they do in real life. If I take the sampling rate down any, it seems to rob the life out of them. Up it back into the 40KHz range and they seem hashy again. Seems the same for all my stereos/mono systems. Maybe my ears just can't distinguish information well that high?
Whatever the reason, I think 32KHz is for me with WAV files. The real strange thing is that 96KHz SACD sounds excellent to my ears. I just can't say what's going on here. It works but for some reason it bothers me that I am intentionally decreasing fidelity for my own enjoyment.
I've been listening to WAV files at 32KHz. For some reason the reduced treble sounds a bit better to me. Cymbals seem to crash more like they do in real life. If I take the sampling rate down any, it seems to rob the life out of them. Up it back into the 40KHz range and they seem hashy again. Seems the same for all my stereos/mono systems. Maybe my ears just can't distinguish information well that high?
Whatever the reason, I think 32KHz is for me with WAV files. The real strange thing is that 96KHz SACD sounds excellent to my ears. I just can't say what's going on here. It works but for some reason it bothers me that I am intentionally decreasing fidelity for my own enjoyment.
I think we should thank Bose for making excellent mid-fi products a step above the usual, for giving sufficient proof of the possibility that better sound is available, and for their extensively instructional advertising that eventually leads some more people here, in search of hi-fi.
What I dislike is that the company creates unrealistic expectations about the size of audio equipment in order to anchor their place in the market. So, while their marketing is a mixed blessing indeed, I do think that the company is a benefit to the industry because they do increase the awareness of the public.
What I dislike is that the company creates unrealistic expectations about the size of audio equipment in order to anchor their place in the market. So, while their marketing is a mixed blessing indeed, I do think that the company is a benefit to the industry because they do increase the awareness of the public.
dantheman said:I've read this whole thread and this is the first thing that struck a response from me.
I've been listening to WAV files at 32KHz. For some reason the reduced treble sounds a bit better to me. Cymbals seem to crash more like they do in real life. If I take the sampling rate down any, it seems to rob the life out of them. Up it back into the 40KHz range and they seem hashy again. Seems the same for all my stereos/mono systems. Maybe my ears just can't distinguish information well that high?
Okay. Consider your ears as part of the audio chain. After that consideration, its impossible to decrease fidelity by causing an improvement in the audio chain.
panomaniac said:
I wonder.
For example the tweeter of a 3 way or the "helper tweeter" in my wideband style, which is downright rampant about getting that sparkle. . . (example for discussion is assuming a high crossover point)
It sounds absolutely horrible because of some sources. It sounds even worse on Class D. The combination of the two is too terrifying to think about.
However, it sounds wonderful on my radios, my computer and my cd players. And, that's in combination with a liner amp, whether it be a lovely old mid-fi from the 70's, a tube amp from the 60's or a brand new linear amp of my own making.
One of the misbehaving sources is a USB to analog DAC. The treble didn't sound airy. It sounded raspy. I fixed it with 1nf 63v polyester caps in parallel with its output. For some reason, the amount of treble didn't decrease, but it was less raspy.
Perhaps a more seemly solution would have been a vacuum tube pre, because of the reputation for a vacuum tube pre in solving digital noise problems.
So, I wonder what happens if you try a vacuum tube pre instead of rolling off the treble?
Pano' (and P10, Inclined' etc.), I think I am with you on this one. I also find most tweeters phony and distracting... often irritating and occasionally painful. I find I am quite sensitive to the way upper mids are reproduced, tho that is something else altogether...
I've not really considered this at length, tho my gut feels it is more to do with the treble quality and emphasis (perhaps of digital and/or most tweeters) rather than its presence, per se.
It is difficult for me to understand this at the moment, as I have not heard SACD; nor have I listened to vinyl for a very long time. Treble reproduction also does not seem to get in the way of my enjoyment of live music either... but that is different to reproduced - the pros and cons are different so I can't completely extrapolate there...
I am thinking that perhaps it also has something to do with the Mark Wieczorek white noise vs. pink noise thing and that I may prefer errors of omission rather than commission. I don't know.
What is nice to know is I am not the only person out there that has similar thoughts/feelings.
Cheers
Scottmoose said:
Huh? Now go back and read my post properly and get it in perspective. It was a compliment for FR speakers and not to put down guys that have spent years learning..... you should know that and don't make out I meant otherwise.
What I was talking about was the general comments that come through where a lot of FR builders are insecure with crossover design and their implications. FR is an easier option, more economical for those plus a large portion here build and do not design. The designing is done by a minority and built by the others that do not have or want the necessary design skills. Those that do kick off designing their own, would not start off with a TL or horn.
Yes, horns and such do take much more to design and tweak but it's still an enclosure where physics still rules.
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