Fullrange, are you guys kidding yourselves?

[tinitus]

Man, did that cable thing slip in...sorry, I must be a bit confused from talking about silver voicecoils ...time to sleep

 

[a.wayne]

I watched it as well. I was left a little unsatisfied, as the original question of the round table was not focused on for very long. I certainly did enjoy the conversation and the perspectives of some of the industry experts.

Back to the topic of this thread. This week my Sister in Law's husband came over and heard my system for the first time in 13 months. I am now listing to a pair of Jordan JX92S in their VTL transmission line design. The brother in law in law lives with a pair of Theils that every time I have heard them give me a splitting headache. He has spent a ton of time and money having electronics modified and cables swapped out to get them to sound right to him. When he heard my FR setup, he pointed out all the obvious flaws. Limited bass, rolled off top end, lack of detail on the top end. That was where his assessment stopped. He was unable to hear past the flaws in the system to hear the other side. The midrange that makes you want to cry and the warmth that makes every recording played on them sound great. I feel he missed something amazing in listening to them, as I truly enjoy their sound. When I switched over to my traditional 2 way with a ribbon crossed over at 2000 hz, he was much happier. At that point his only comments were in reference to my choice to over damp the box to tighten up the bass response and eliminate room nodes.

I guess this just goes to show that personal preference has a lot to do with perception. I am drawn into the FR system, and the brother in law in law was simply unable to get past the places where it was "lacking" in comparison to his Theils. Now, when you step back and listen with the comparison to live music, I feel that the FR setup gets much closer to acoustic and small scale music than my 2 ways ever will, but the resolution of the ribbons will forever reveal tons more details than the Jordan ever can.

Which flavor would you like? Audiophile (hyper-resolving), or Natural (FR downsides)

I would like both .. Lol .

What happened between you and your brother -in-law is very typical in the hi-fi world and in the end we have to choose what is correct to us . As we listen to the recording of live music , as oppose to live music it self , each individual will take from each recording his or her version based on perceptions and bias....

Subjectively i have grown to view audio reproduction as yours and mine , vs right or wrong , as one mans euphoria can be another 's anathema. So be it single or multi-way , ribbon or electrostatic , not really mutually exclusive in my books , if the taste is right ...


Now could we see more pics ?

Regards,

 

[a.wayne]

But luckily those psyko things never seems to last very long, or do they
Our own state of mind does seem to make a huge difference
Even my very finest motorbike almost gets scrapped when riding it on an offday, though it always runs like the sweetest dream...one of those strange things

Though good music sometimes cures even a headache, and maybe more we dont know of...and other times some music makes me sick(stressed), which I think often has a lot to do with noise, phase and timing issues from the mixing process, the music itself may be ok

Do I think cables matters...sure they do
But I dont count them as especially important to achieve a high level of audio...that would be more like amps and speakers doing that

cables and wires are simple RLC circuits , i too do not view there importance to be of significant importance over the sound, but can be used to tweek to a particular taste .

 

[fredex]

Man, did that cable thing slip in...sorry, I must be a bit confused from talking about silver voicecoils ...time to sleep

Well the same brain functions apply to cables and everything else in HiFi Land. As to whether we are all kidding ourselves as the thread title asks, I know I am kidding myself some of the time..............maybe all the time. But I have always liked the sound of a single speaker in my car, my mantle radio and even the TV sounds OK to me. But as soon as you try and make that sound bigger it sounds wrong somehow.

 

[musgofasa]

This is why I so often like to do blind tests. I don't like to analyze any speaker, regardless of it's design or construction without having first heard it. I will often ask to listen to someone elses speaker before they try to explain to me why it is better than any other. This does NOT go over well when in a hi-fi stereo shop and even less well in a big-box type store. Salesman know what is the best on the floor (even if it is the cheapest thing they have that they need to unload for some reason) and they will tell you enough good things about it to make you believe it sounds better than something else. If you listened first, you might have a different opinion.

Of course one set of speakers might work so much better in a particular room or on a particular amp or with particular program material.......

Wait! That's why we are all here in the first place! lol

The mind is an awful thing to waste. Has anyone seen the video where they take college students into a room and hand them coffee to hold the first time and cold drinks the second? In the first test, they hand them a cup of coffee, have a 2 minute conversation and then leave. An instructor comes in and asks if they would hire the first guy for a job. Same test repeated the second time, except with a cold drink instead of hot coffee. Almost polar opposite results. 9 out of ten said yes, they would hire the guy after they held the coffee and 8 out of 10 said no after the cold drink. Same people, same conversations.

Are our minds really that easily manipulated?

Take care,
Robert

 

[InclinedPlane]

Agreed. I can share another frustration. When I'm in a good mood I love my speakers and am convinced they lack nothing. When my mood is less than stellar I can become convinced of a myriad of flaws. There are times a nasty midrange harshness will just eat me alive and other times it seems quite mild even though I have used the same track at the same volume level. Of course, the audio system is the same all the time. The one thing that deviates wildly is me and there ain't a thing I can do about it.

 

[tinitus]

Of course, the audio system is the same all the time.

Maybe it is the same always, but maybe it isnt
Temperature and air humidity could play an important role
You dont always know what is going on in your electronics, and there could be tiny small stability changes from time to time
Power mains may vary due to "pollution" from other users

Sometimes it appears to be the very smallest things that makes the important difference

 

[kevinkr]

Agreed. I can share another frustration. When I'm in a good mood I love my speakers and am convinced they lack nothing. When my mood is less than stellar I can become convinced of a myriad of flaws. There are times a nasty midrange harshness will just eat me alive and other times it seems quite mild even though I have used the same track at the same volume level. Of course, the audio system is the same all the time. The one thing that deviates wildly is me and there ain't a thing I can do about it.

Actually you can't safely assume that your audio system is always the same.. Sorry External influences like temperature, barometric pressure and humidity affect the performance of paper and wood based cone materials. (As well as some common spider materials.)

Line voltage quality - harmonic distortion content, EMI, source impedance, and voltage fluctuations both long and short term influence all but the most perfect electronics to some extent.

Oxidization in contacts in connectors and switches, speaker cable, tube sockets, and possibly power transistor sockets (if used) also play a role.

Add things like level dependent non-linearity in driver voice coils and X-O components. (Short of obvious excess at the volume control. )

Then as you point out mood also plays a huge role as does your exposure to various types of noise during the course of your day. (I've noted that on days where I stay home and don't drive my hearing seems noticeably better, but I do have a fairly noisy small car.) Mental fatigue or stress may make it difficult to listen attentively as will unwarranted distractions which may be beyond your control. Just thought I would complicate your day...

I'm just saying it might not all be you, particularly if you can correlate it to specific times of day or specific prior activities.

Probably best to just ignore when possible and enjoy the music..

 

[danielwritesbac]

Agreed. I can share another frustration. When I'm in a good mood I love my speakers and am convinced they lack nothing. When my mood is less than stellar I can become convinced of a myriad of flaws. There are times a nasty midrange harshness will just eat me alive and other times it seems quite mild even though I have used the same track at the same volume level. Of course, the audio system is the same all the time. The one thing that deviates wildly is me and there ain't a thing I can do about it.

Tape loop switch + prosound equalizer (or that garage band equalizer from the RS, or Rod Elliot's milder version of tone controls). Well, or you could arrange a switchable padding for the mids at the speaker.

There's no harm in some tomfoolery with the frequency response, as long as there's a switch so you can shut that off when it isn't needed. Mr. Nelson Pass did hint at that. Yes, audio IS entertainment industry equipment. Satisfy your ears, because they are the most important component in the audio chain.

Personally:
When I'm in a bad mood and I want the audio to carry me away, I'll turn it up so much farther than would be wise. As the ear responds more closely to flat when its being abused (in proportion! darn it!!), then if you crank up the volume and have a mids peak at this time. . . indeed you do have a mids peak in either the electric (including source and amp) or electronic/electromechanical components (including speakers and room altered signal)--NOT because of your ears. If they say "ouch" then obey them.

Related: That (above) is the largest difference between computer sim / electronic measure, and their disassociation with practical applications. Such "perfectly computer accurized" equipment wouldn't be used in prosound (unless it were at least EQ'd to correct it); and, I like to say, if you're not listening to a concert then you're listening to. . . something else. Do have fun. Its supposed to be fun. Please don't make yourself listen to equipment that is only perfect within someone (something) else's opinion--its your opinion that counts.

 

[Pano]

When I'm in a bad mood<snip> I'll turn it up so much farther....

Why Louder Sounds Better

 

[danielwritesbac]

Why Louder Sounds Better

Thanks.

That is such a good article!

It helps explain the loud upper mids you get if using a flat response audio system. Well yes, but there's no need to torture yourself. (article explains it)