Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: To answer the original question...
It visually appears to be a standard 2nd order parallel crossover for the woofer. It is later turned into a series crossover when the high frequency driver is added. After this second step, the last step is to synchronize the high frequency driver. This is almost exactly the same as the textbook series crossover, with perhaps only a difference in methodology.
With the drivers, pick the easy fight. For instance, don't buy a woofer with the typical huge peak. Asking the crossover to remove that peak is also asking it to remove/mask signal. If the speaker cannot succeed without a zobel, then choose different drivers.
Later you can add a zobel if you like, but that should be avoided if possible (or at least avoided within the audio band).
The point is that the speaker drivers shouldn't require extremes of filtration, else signal is lost.
Second, the series crossover does make a noise, but its easy to remedy (its very easy). The sound of inductance is a ringing. This gets into the higher freqency driver; however, as it occurs at lower than the crossover point, an additional series cap (2.3x larger than the main cap) to the high frequency driver will roll it off (and send it where its supposed to go, minus noise). If your selection of high frequency driver has "hot mids" you can use approximately 4R padding to soften it to taste.
The only requirement is that your ears are pleased, and that is necessary in order for the project to be practical.
Also, in order for the audio chain to be complete, it is necessary that your ears not detect a box.
I'm not an expert speaker builder; however, because of the results, I'd venture to say that there is no such requirement. Sorry for the disjointed reply, but I'm so busy getting my projects ready for the summer concert. Some of the preamplifier projects contain a stout learning curve for me, so I'm studying, and studying. . .
jrn77478 said:
It visually appears to be a standard 2nd order parallel crossover for the woofer. It is later turned into a series crossover when the high frequency driver is added. After this second step, the last step is to synchronize the high frequency driver. This is almost exactly the same as the textbook series crossover, with perhaps only a difference in methodology.
With the drivers, pick the easy fight. For instance, don't buy a woofer with the typical huge peak. Asking the crossover to remove that peak is also asking it to remove/mask signal. If the speaker cannot succeed without a zobel, then choose different drivers.
Later you can add a zobel if you like, but that should be avoided if possible (or at least avoided within the audio band).
The point is that the speaker drivers shouldn't require extremes of filtration, else signal is lost.
Second, the series crossover does make a noise, but its easy to remedy (its very easy). The sound of inductance is a ringing. This gets into the higher freqency driver; however, as it occurs at lower than the crossover point, an additional series cap (2.3x larger than the main cap) to the high frequency driver will roll it off (and send it where its supposed to go, minus noise). If your selection of high frequency driver has "hot mids" you can use approximately 4R padding to soften it to taste.
The only requirement is that your ears are pleased, and that is necessary in order for the project to be practical.
Also, in order for the audio chain to be complete, it is necessary that your ears not detect a box.
I'm not an expert speaker builder; however, because of the results, I'd venture to say that there is no such requirement. Sorry for the disjointed reply, but I'm so busy getting my projects ready for the summer concert. Some of the preamplifier projects contain a stout learning curve for me, so I'm studying, and studying. . .
Oh, I've just thought up how to answer one of the other questions, but its a good exercise in general.
Okay, listen to a recording that has been reverbed at the studio.
1). Do the reverb echoes fade away into the background seeming to come from distances farther and farther behind the speaker?
2). Or, do the reverb echoes merely progressively decrease in perceived volume?
Case#1 is your amplifier working correctly, wheras Case#2 can sometimes (usually?) be remedied by adding a buffer. See Decibel Dungeon for that. Soundfield forwards and rearwards of the speaker is an amplifier task. Of course, some speakers are "easier" than others, and while that's a popular excuse, its unnecessary for you to tolerate a compromise.
EDIT: Case#2 can also be caused by a bad DAC/sound card/source.
The point? It may not be your speakers at fault if there is some lack of presentation. Amplifiers do sound different, and this is one of the ways they differ. Have fun guys!
Okay, listen to a recording that has been reverbed at the studio.
1). Do the reverb echoes fade away into the background seeming to come from distances farther and farther behind the speaker?
2). Or, do the reverb echoes merely progressively decrease in perceived volume?
Case#1 is your amplifier working correctly, wheras Case#2 can sometimes (usually?) be remedied by adding a buffer. See Decibel Dungeon for that. Soundfield forwards and rearwards of the speaker is an amplifier task. Of course, some speakers are "easier" than others, and while that's a popular excuse, its unnecessary for you to tolerate a compromise.
EDIT: Case#2 can also be caused by a bad DAC/sound card/source.
The point? It may not be your speakers at fault if there is some lack of presentation. Amplifiers do sound different, and this is one of the ways they differ. Have fun guys!
Hi guys, just for fun, regarding the "purity" of hifi recording I mentioned earlier:
Diana Krall, "Love Scenes" track 7, "I Don't Stand a Ghost of a Chance with You."
Listen to the hiss disappear and re-appear, attempting to crudely anticipate the vocal phrases. There's huffing, puffing, the sound of Diane swallowing (cut off mid-swallow), and then at around 5:12 you hear a couple nasty eruptions of hiss (specifically, the noise gate is "chattering"). Also, when she comes in for the last verse, her level is a tad too low compared to the earlier verse (or she starts in too far from the mike and then self-corrects).
None of this is intended as a criticism of her, or her engineers, it's just what happens when the clock is ticking and you have to get tracks in the can. Obviously the performance can be fantastic despite whatever hiss. In defense of her engineers, I'm listening to this on planet10-enabled FE127eN's so blame the dots!
Diana Krall, "Love Scenes" track 7, "I Don't Stand a Ghost of a Chance with You."
Listen to the hiss disappear and re-appear, attempting to crudely anticipate the vocal phrases. There's huffing, puffing, the sound of Diane swallowing (cut off mid-swallow), and then at around 5:12 you hear a couple nasty eruptions of hiss (specifically, the noise gate is "chattering"). Also, when she comes in for the last verse, her level is a tad too low compared to the earlier verse (or she starts in too far from the mike and then self-corrects).
None of this is intended as a criticism of her, or her engineers, it's just what happens when the clock is ticking and you have to get tracks in the can. Obviously the performance can be fantastic despite whatever hiss. In defense of her engineers, I'm listening to this on planet10-enabled FE127eN's so blame the dots!
that song is so boring the studio guys must have been sporadically dozing off. if it weren't for track #4 and #6 i would've given the disc to the local library. i like Shirley Horn's rendition of track #1 and #2 so much better. funny that they're the last two tracks on The Main Ingredient which was released a year eariler.
Best cone tweeter I've auditioned so far, Altec's 2000B, had no surround: http://hifilit.com/hifilit/Altec/1959-j.jpg
GM
GM
I didn't, both it and its wide BW woofer mate (another 'keeper') were unfortunately long out of production and 'scarce as hen's teeth' by the time I auditioned them in a Monterey Jr. bookshelf stereo system: http://hifilit.com/hifilit/Altec/1959-i.jpg
GM
GM
The thread is meandering a bit. So I'll throw this video gives some interesting thoughts on listening and recording. For me full range (wide range) drivers have been the most meaningful audio experiences. (note: I am NOT saying that multiway systems can't do this, but I have not experienced them.)
Deep Listening
My connection crapped out half way through, but it was enough to think some of you might be interested.
Deep Listening
My connection crapped out half way through, but it was enough to think some of you might be interested.
I watched it as well. I was left a little unsatisfied, as the original question of the round table was not focused on for very long. I certainly did enjoy the conversation and the perspectives of some of the industry experts.
Back to the topic of this thread. This week my Sister in Law's husband came over and heard my system for the first time in 13 months. I am now listing to a pair of Jordan JX92S in their VTL transmission line design. The brother in law in law lives with a pair of Theils that every time I have heard them give me a splitting headache. He has spent a ton of time and money having electronics modified and cables swapped out to get them to sound right to him. When he heard my FR setup, he pointed out all the obvious flaws. Limited bass, rolled off top end, lack of detail on the top end. That was where his assessment stopped. He was unable to hear past the flaws in the system to hear the other side. The midrange that makes you want to cry and the warmth that makes every recording played on them sound great. I feel he missed something amazing in listening to them, as I truly enjoy their sound. When I switched over to my traditional 2 way with a ribbon crossed over at 2000 hz, he was much happier. At that point his only comments were in reference to my choice to over damp the box to tighten up the bass response and eliminate room nodes.
I guess this just goes to show that personal preference has a lot to do with perception. I am drawn into the FR system, and the brother in law in law was simply unable to get past the places where it was "lacking" in comparison to his Theils. Now, when you step back and listen with the comparison to live music, I feel that the FR setup gets much closer to acoustic and small scale music than my 2 ways ever will, but the resolution of the ribbons will forever reveal tons more details than the Jordan ever can.
Which flavor would you like? Audiophile (hyper-resolving), or Natural (FR downsides)
Back to the topic of this thread. This week my Sister in Law's husband came over and heard my system for the first time in 13 months. I am now listing to a pair of Jordan JX92S in their VTL transmission line design. The brother in law in law lives with a pair of Theils that every time I have heard them give me a splitting headache. He has spent a ton of time and money having electronics modified and cables swapped out to get them to sound right to him. When he heard my FR setup, he pointed out all the obvious flaws. Limited bass, rolled off top end, lack of detail on the top end. That was where his assessment stopped. He was unable to hear past the flaws in the system to hear the other side. The midrange that makes you want to cry and the warmth that makes every recording played on them sound great. I feel he missed something amazing in listening to them, as I truly enjoy their sound. When I switched over to my traditional 2 way with a ribbon crossed over at 2000 hz, he was much happier. At that point his only comments were in reference to my choice to over damp the box to tighten up the bass response and eliminate room nodes.
I guess this just goes to show that personal preference has a lot to do with perception. I am drawn into the FR system, and the brother in law in law was simply unable to get past the places where it was "lacking" in comparison to his Theils. Now, when you step back and listen with the comparison to live music, I feel that the FR setup gets much closer to acoustic and small scale music than my 2 ways ever will, but the resolution of the ribbons will forever reveal tons more details than the Jordan ever can.
Which flavor would you like? Audiophile (hyper-resolving), or Natural (FR downsides)
DaveM said:
excellent post, Dave
There are very few bricks & mortar audio shops left these days ( I mean real audio shops, not "Costco-Best-Buy-More"), however our town is privileged to have one with a heritage of over 30yrs. Before I tripped into the crazy rabbit hole of the DIY/FR world, I was as loyal if not deep-pocketed a customer as any (i.e. a former card carrying member of the Linn upgrade cult ) However , with all due respect to any remaining dealers' need to survive, my very occasional visits now result in both an insult to my intelligence upon hearing the prices quoted, and the same type of headache you describe from actually listening to most of the systems.
Whether it's "too much information", or something else - who effen knows?
Let the youngsters dig into their wallets to satisfy their egos and the impossible goal of "absolute fidelity to the original performance" (who knows what that was 'sposed to be?) - I can get all the emotion I need from my very simple FR speakers (Fostex as it happens) and SE tube amps.
Suggested reading (sorry, no videos) :
"This is your Brain in Music"
and
"The World in Six Songs (How the Musical Brain Created Human Nature)"
(emphasis mine)
both by Daniel J Levitin
chrisb said:
It is not just price or the questionable qualities of much of the products but I am so tired of having marketing smoke blown up my butt or rude or snobbish attitudes or being completely ignored.
If they would stop trying to manipulate me and simply try and serve me and my needs they would do far better.
Your post resonates with me too, Dave.
As with Chris, I too was a card carrying "flat-earther", but without the deep pockets to really reach the Satori that the salespeople said would be mine, if only I could ascend the ladder, and bi-amp. then tri-amp, and etc,etc. As a result, I quit enjoying (recorded) music for several years.
Ironically, on the rare occasions when I'd enter a showroom to hear the "latest", I'd leave wondering what all the fuss was about, and thought for a while it must be me,"not getting it"
Anyway, I started visiting on-line audio forums several years ago, got curious about single,WR speakers, built a pair (thanks to Bob Brines for his FT1600 plans!) and was amazed at the music that poured out of these humble, cheap to build boxes. (I've since continued on to build several different single driver designs, Thx to P-10, RonC, Scott, Chris, et al, with more to come--)
The same week, my "Flat-earth" rig was listed on f/s.
I'd found MY set of compromises! Music is a joy again
Other folks have said it better than me, TRUST YOUR EARS, FOLKS!!
Don
As with Chris, I too was a card carrying "flat-earther", but without the deep pockets to really reach the Satori that the salespeople said would be mine, if only I could ascend the ladder, and bi-amp. then tri-amp, and etc,etc. As a result, I quit enjoying (recorded) music for several years.
Ironically, on the rare occasions when I'd enter a showroom to hear the "latest", I'd leave wondering what all the fuss was about, and thought for a while it must be me,"not getting it"
Anyway, I started visiting on-line audio forums several years ago, got curious about single,WR speakers, built a pair (thanks to Bob Brines for his FT1600 plans!) and was amazed at the music that poured out of these humble, cheap to build boxes. (I've since continued on to build several different single driver designs, Thx to P-10, RonC, Scott, Chris, et al, with more to come--)
The same week, my "Flat-earth" rig was listed on f/s.
I'd found MY set of compromises! Music is a joy again
Other folks have said it better than me, TRUST YOUR EARS, FOLKS!!
Don
Thanks for the Deep Listening video.
Watched it. They sure didn't stay on subject, did they? =) (as noted above). But the audiophile guys, Fremer and Cornog were outnumbered by the industry guys. So that's the way the discussion went. Nice stories and ideas. Good peek into the industry.
And for all those who say that the pro guys don't give a hoot about audiophile systems should watch this. These guys do.
BTW, nice post, Dave.
Watched it. They sure didn't stay on subject, did they? =) (as noted above). But the audiophile guys, Fremer and Cornog were outnumbered by the industry guys. So that's the way the discussion went. Nice stories and ideas. Good peek into the industry.
And for all those who say that the pro guys don't give a hoot about audiophile systems should watch this. These guys do.
BTW, nice post, Dave.
Funny that I have been snickering behind my brother in law in law's back for years now about his belief in the white papers released by Theil. Their whole Phase perfect concept is like a bible to him. He is often more concerned about phase than he is frequency response. Interesting to me how his mind has been made up by reading and buying into the marketing material of one company.
On that note, I have heard a design with a phase perfect crossover and then swapped to a traditional crossover where phase is not the focus of the design. I didn't hear a big deal. In fact the only difference I heard was a change in the soundstage and a bit in the tonal balance. But to insist that the best sound must be phase perfect is to ignore the fact that 99% of the speakers are not phase perfect, and many of them sound great.
I laughed when he looked at the phase response of the Jordan on the web and was surprised about the imperfect phase response. Just another nail in the coffin for him. I try and trust my ears as best I can.
On that note, I have heard a design with a phase perfect crossover and then swapped to a traditional crossover where phase is not the focus of the design. I didn't hear a big deal. In fact the only difference I heard was a change in the soundstage and a bit in the tonal balance. But to insist that the best sound must be phase perfect is to ignore the fact that 99% of the speakers are not phase perfect, and many of them sound great.
I laughed when he looked at the phase response of the Jordan on the web and was surprised about the imperfect phase response. Just another nail in the coffin for him. I try and trust my ears as best I can.
fredex said:
I can be quite happy with my system and then read some white paper that outlines a problem that I didn't know existed and the next thing I know I am listening in a different way and hearing this problem.
But luckily those psyko things never seems to last very long, or do they
Our own state of mind does seem to make a huge difference
Even my very finest motorbike almost gets scrapped when riding it on an offday, though it always runs like the sweetest dream...one of those strange things
Though good music sometimes cures even a headache, and maybe more we dont know of...and other times some music makes me sick(stressed), which I think often has a lot to do with noise, phase and timing issues from the mixing process, the music itself may be ok
Do I think cables matters...sure they do
But I dont count them as especially important to achieve a high level of audio...that would be more like amps and speakers doing that
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.