Qts of 1 is still pretty high, that's true, so 2 magnets should be fine.
Lots of Fostex drives have quite low x max. I suspect that those low excursion drivers can move a bit further than the x-max, the distortion goes up though. They are 10" diameter which helps them not require as much x-max. So probably not very low bass, but open baffles usually don't have that much I believe. A pair of subs would help, and with them, rolling the Ciares off makes sense.
Of course listening is the proof, and people say they sound pretty good. Lot's keep the price in mind. I don't think people are saying that they are the best driver ever, just quite good for the money.
Lots of Fostex drives have quite low x max. I suspect that those low excursion drivers can move a bit further than the x-max, the distortion goes up though. They are 10" diameter which helps them not require as much x-max. So probably not very low bass, but open baffles usually don't have that much I believe. A pair of subs would help, and with them, rolling the Ciares off makes sense.
Of course listening is the proof, and people say they sound pretty good. Lot's keep the price in mind. I don't think people are saying that they are the best driver ever, just quite good for the money.
Let's see, a 10" driver has about 75 sq inches of area.
a 4"driver such as in a mini-monitor has about 12 sq Inches.
So a 10 inch driver has about 6 times the area of a 4" So the Ciare is eqivalent to a 4" driver with 3mm of xmax. But a lot less distortion, and most people I believe, feel that a bigger radiating surface produces more convincing bass. So thinks aren't all that bad....people listen to mini monitors all the time without huge complaints..
a 4"driver such as in a mini-monitor has about 12 sq Inches.
So a 10 inch driver has about 6 times the area of a 4" So the Ciare is eqivalent to a 4" driver with 3mm of xmax. But a lot less distortion, and most people I believe, feel that a bigger radiating surface produces more convincing bass. So thinks aren't all that bad....people listen to mini monitors all the time without huge complaints..
Variac said:
I don`t think you can use this kind of calculation. At the Supravox homepage you have direct comparison. The 215BIC with doubled xmax has 3dB less sensitivity, same power rating, and goes only 5Hz deeper in bass. My trial to explain that:
The excursion of a driver is not proportional to the signal. A driver with a lot of xmax floats around in the subsonic range. This produces wind an lowers the efficiency. The reason to do this is make is more linear.
Variac said:
0.5mm is tiny.
Let's not compare a driver on an enclosure to an OB.
The Ciare can have some decent bass with some enclosure types.
Maybe the same as used for some small Fostex drivers.
For an OB, the Ciare can be used, but with a lot of help from a bass driver.
It would also be a good idea to protect it with a big cap, forming a high-pass filter at around 100Hz.
This looks like a good (and cheap) option for an OB:
http://www.visaton.com/english/artikel/art_252_1_3.html
6mm Xmax, 1.96 QTS, 75Hz FS...
Quite linear frequency response.
It's not an 8" driver, but it's 6.5".
el`Ol said:
Notice that the response is quite linear.
Not too big peak in the midband.
87db is not bad.
What's the point in having 90+ sensitivity on the specs and a big 100+ db peak on the midband?
The peak pushes the "average" sensitivity spec higher.
High sensitivity drivers are usually like that.
With very rare exceptions.
Trying to correct that is throwing away sensitivity, so here we go again...
apassgear said:
That's well spotted.
Their specs are a little misleading...
Here's a 96db driver, and a praised (?) one.
Between 100Hz and 8Khz there's a massive 17db difference in output.
http://www.visaton.com/english/artikel/art_771_1_3.html
carlosfm said:
It would be nice to see off-axis response... when i had the pair of these they in no way exhibited this rising response -- and they needed more power than the FE103A (90-92 dB depending on sample) to really shine. I'm suspecting that you get even just a bit off axis they flatten right out with an effective efficiency closer to 90.
Whatever they do, they were really good sounding.
dave
The CH 250 is a good driver, period. Considering it's price it's a very good driver for the money. But for sure there are alot of better drivers and I don't say you will find "hifi heaven" with it. An open baffle system is as complex as an 2 or 3 way system, everything matters (material used for the baffle,size of the baffle, placement of the baffle in the room, frontend used...). No CH250 system will sound the same compared to another one ...
My experiences are:
The CH250 sounds good.
It produces on my baffle in my room sufficient bass(can be driven loud enough too).
It sounds better with extra magnet.
Thin birch ply sounds better than thick beech ply.
I had alot of fun building an listening to it.
My experiences are:
The CH250 sounds good.
It produces on my baffle in my room sufficient bass(can be driven loud enough too).
It sounds better with extra magnet.
Thin birch ply sounds better than thick beech ply.
I had alot of fun building an listening to it.
knorke said:
Ok.
Did I really say it's bad?
We were just discussing why the Ciare has less bass than the Goodmans.
I'm on my bench listening to a pair of ridiculously small 5cm fullrange drivers on 20cm OBs and you know what?
No bass, but I can't turn it off.
There's something to the midband detail and speed that's addictive.
It also has decent, extended treble, what it lacks is a woofer.
knorke said:I had alot of fun building an listening to it.
But you are an advocate of listening, not just specs-at least with amps..
Those curves from the manufacturers are often quite unreliable.
If a driver has a smooth rising rate, tilting it is a good trick which can even things out.
I do agree that some (especially Pro) drivers have a big peak- then they use THE PEAK as the claimed efficiency!
It's like software- "its not a bug, its a feature"
Variac said:
If you could try the drivers at home before buying...
Or listen to them...
Failing this, we have to rely on specs to get a first idea of how they could work.
Doesn't mean that good specs alone make a good (sounding) driver.
Variac said:I do agree that some (especially Pro) drivers have a big peak- then they use THE PEAK as the claimed efficiency!
Indeed.
Variac said:It's like software- "its not a bug, its a feature"
FWIW, I have just measured my Ciare 250's.
NB - Baffle size is 63 cm wide, 110 cm tall. And measured using the extra magnets.
Without the subs the Ciares go down to around 77 hz before they drop off very steeply.
With the subs it is fairly flat to 26 Hz.
The Ciare's are growing on me now and a visitor over the weekend was highly impressed. I'm still not sure that I don't prefer the Goodmans but I will give the Ciares some more time to win me over.
NB - Baffle size is 63 cm wide, 110 cm tall. And measured using the extra magnets.
Without the subs the Ciares go down to around 77 hz before they drop off very steeply.
With the subs it is fairly flat to 26 Hz.
The Ciare's are growing on me now and a visitor over the weekend was highly impressed. I'm still not sure that I don't prefer the Goodmans but I will give the Ciares some more time to win me over.
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