I'm struggling with the definition that those researching it use, are you researching it? It might be better to wait for Jakob to reply.
But if you admit not having any technical background to speak of, why would anybody engage in any serious technical debates with you? Why would you think the dialogue would make any sense? BTW, reading the legends under graphs cannot replace some degree of understanding of what is the graph about.
Dick waving now, I see - ego & arrogance on display at its most objectionable
Since you don't understand what digital or discrete time is or means, we cannot continue to discuss this. You need to understand basic fundamentals before we can have a more productive discussion. It is 100% possible to fully exercise a system, as it would be realized, before it becomes an analog signal.
BTW, you didn't indicate which graph you wanted me to read the legend on. You also did not elaborate on what I said that is incorrect. The modulator in a DAC is completely in the digital domain, please explain to me how I am incorrect. I am happy to change my view if you can explain to me where I am wrong.
Last edited:
See, we have a subjectivist who likes TDA1543 and the analog output of his tablet PC.
Seems hard to take seriously the claimed effects of jitter, noise modulation, settling of higher order SD modulators, etc. when the bar is set this low.
I didn't say I like TDA1543. I said I think I have tried to push the chip to its performance limit and couldn't possibly make it better. Many people who heard it liked it anyway, most probably the obvious bass performance, then the natural sound and I know there was a performance leap when i did something to power supply. Most people who talk badly about this chip (NOS) talked about HF issues hehe I was much younger then (decades ago) and my ears should be okay but I couldn't hear anything
Jitter. I found that jitter was overrated but many suggested that my situation didn't enable me to hear the effect of my jitter improvement efforts. And i'm an open minded person.
The fact that I'm okay with the output of my tablet pc has nothing to do with setting the bar low or cannot hear differences. Actually it supports the claim that DACs are not good enough. Think.
That's true. People debate about some things based more on what they do or don't hear. Those who hear imperfections in dacs argue there are complicating factors within dacs that cause little, yet audible imperfections. Those who don't hear imperfections in dacs argue that there are no imperfections, and any claimed imperfections must therefore be imaginary (if the imperfections are insufficiently stationary to show up in measurements that work well for other types of audio devices).
There are perceptual complications on both sides, either way humans tend to believe their own eyes and own ears (and their own intuitions) more than they believe someone else's (unless perhaps that someone else has 'proven' abilities beyond one's own). As always, scientists and engineers are human first.
Might help some to study philosophy of science more than we traditionally do in school.
Last edited:
Chris,
Discrete time has me wondering how buffering works into the process, is it in the digital domain and just ‘records’ in the same discrete timing or does analog enter in and records in continuous time.....and is analog even considered “continuous’ time?
My point is chris is talking about the purely digital aspects of the problem, all of your quotes refer to the mixed signal aspects of the issue. When you are simply adding, multiplying, dividing numbers you don't get different answers depending on some poorly understood conditions.
One question remain mysterious to me: Why the people, in this forum, that reject in audio any form of emotion or sensibility in the way to approach the technology, refuse the right to others to use a different approach, are so arrogant and aggressives, shoot at the player instead of the ball, use authority arguments.
Are-they so unsure of their positions, or is-it their lack of ability to feel and enjoy anything, music included, that frustrate them so much ?
Right. The original question I had was why would this be hard to "simulate" or test to discover any errant behavior, when the component we are talking about resides in the digital domain. Which, as you point out, means it is just math.
AN-283 figure 6.4 the basic modulator has an integrator and comparator, analog components, you can not possibly make an A/D as an absolutely digital only concept.
Its a debate. In debates anything not prohibited by rules is allowed.
Last edited:
We're talking about a DAC though, not an A/D. Figure 6.34 and the paragraphs below. Looks like bits in and bits out to me. Figure 6.4 is an ADC.
Last edited:
I believe we all agree on this. As long as we stay in the pure digital world, there is no question about this, and it is the major interest of this technology. If the things are correctly made, there is no degradation in copying, sampling, transporting, distributing the datas. Even modification of the signals, by DSP, do what was supposed to be done in a totally (?) reliable and reproducible way.
The problem is at the customs of this world. It seems that the traveler leaves always some feathers in passing.
The question is whether it is important, in view of all those that he has lost to get there, and those he will lose while continuing his journey to our ears.
Last edited:
That crosses my mind as well......I’ve got no skin in the game other than years of being on the receiving end of what is offered by those who ‘know’ best.
I’ve caught up in my ‘listening skills’ and am told this is it? I’d like to think there was more to come.
The mixed signal simulation at this level is VERY difficult, we network workstations together just like they do at LHC and run some sims for days.
It's not mixed signal though? Since ESS doesn't make an ADC currently and didn't at the time of the presentation, they are talking about their Sabre DAC. I am missing where the analog domain enters this at all before the final 6-bit converter or whatever it is in the Sabre.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.