I had to dig in the 'way back machine' to see what I had.
I can't remember if this was no eq, or if I had applied a db or 2, I know I have VERY limited eq applied in the dcx2496.
I originally went to drastically tame the 8khz piezo spike, but in the end, I didn't completely eliminate it. Leaving it let the system seem 'crisper' even though I know it should have been eq'd out. Also notice, the complete lack of the 500hz 'boxy' sound that you get with a 10" long mid-horn. It was breezy enough that day (from memory) that I was only looking at 350hz on up.
I wasn't using smaart for this (didn't have it on my laptop at the time) so this is Spectralab, creative usb mp3+, art preamp, and superlux ecm999 reference mic. Measurement in the stands, about 10 yards to the side of the press box, about 15 yards to the front of it.
Oh, and tops integrating with the TH... well, let's just say a big grin happens anytime I listen to this system
that's about all I can remember from a year back.
I can't remember if this was no eq, or if I had applied a db or 2, I know I have VERY limited eq applied in the dcx2496.
I originally went to drastically tame the 8khz piezo spike, but in the end, I didn't completely eliminate it. Leaving it let the system seem 'crisper' even though I know it should have been eq'd out. Also notice, the complete lack of the 500hz 'boxy' sound that you get with a 10" long mid-horn. It was breezy enough that day (from memory) that I was only looking at 350hz on up.
I wasn't using smaart for this (didn't have it on my laptop at the time) so this is Spectralab, creative usb mp3+, art preamp, and superlux ecm999 reference mic. Measurement in the stands, about 10 yards to the side of the press box, about 15 yards to the front of it.
Oh, and tops integrating with the TH... well, let's just say a big grin happens anytime I listen to this system
that's about all I can remember from a year back.
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straight horn... I didn't want to mess with a mid-high w-bin.
I've built several prototype tops with varying length horns, from 6" to 18" long. I can tell you the longer horns seem to carry better at distance. Also, the taller you go, (driver-wise) the better it carries at distance. (think line array)
I used a quad driver cabinet to cover the field, a pair of dual driver side fills, and four single driver short fills to keep up with the four TH cabinets. A pair of ep2500's and a dcx2496 round out the system. Believe it or not, it's running from a single 20amp outlet.
Everything (tops/subs/amps) seem to run out of gas at about the same time, so I'd say it was a well balanced mix.
Thanks for the remind.. I need to go back there this summer and do a couple sound checks, just for fun.....
I've built several prototype tops with varying length horns, from 6" to 18" long. I can tell you the longer horns seem to carry better at distance. Also, the taller you go, (driver-wise) the better it carries at distance. (think line array)
I used a quad driver cabinet to cover the field, a pair of dual driver side fills, and four single driver short fills to keep up with the four TH cabinets. A pair of ep2500's and a dcx2496 round out the system. Believe it or not, it's running from a single 20amp outlet.
Everything (tops/subs/amps) seem to run out of gas at about the same time, so I'd say it was a well balanced mix.
Thanks for the remind.. I need to go back there this summer and do a couple sound checks, just for fun.....
I do a non-profit outdoor festival twice a year using a center cluster of four LAB subs and vertical arrays of twelve Beta 10s per side. HF is handled by a shorter array of 2" drivers physically centered in the mids.
The betas are in vented boxes and the system is lacking low mids. Also, I run the entire stage on a 400 foot underground 220 line that sags quite a bit when the system is pushed.
I'd like to see if horn loading the mids would help.
Don S. has been kind enough to email and share his TH sub experience so I may replace the LABs as well. The Labs are huge, heavy and the pass band is a little too low for my needs.
Looks like you beat me too the saw dust by a year.
Dan
The betas are in vented boxes and the system is lacking low mids. Also, I run the entire stage on a 400 foot underground 220 line that sags quite a bit when the system is pushed.
I'd like to see if horn loading the mids would help.
Don S. has been kind enough to email and share his TH sub experience so I may replace the LABs as well. The Labs are huge, heavy and the pass band is a little too low for my needs.
Looks like you beat me too the saw dust by a year.
Dan
12 beta 10's per side? hmm, figure it might look something like this if you put them in horns? This is only 8 drivers, that's as high as I thought I could reasonably stack them and be stable when I was testing. True confession (embarrassing) time on how well horns 'carry.' First time I fired up the system, I didn't have the field coverage quad driver cabinet angled down enough, and it was actually able to direct sound to a school building 300-400 yds away that was on an angle in relation to the speakers. I took a mic out to mid field, and starting singing star spangled banner. The local principal was at the grocery many blocks away in the other direction, and heard me... from the slap off of that building, and excitedly came to see the new system. A few degrees added down angle, and that problem is solved, grocery patrons, don't get to hear the game for free..... Moral of the story, always be 'on key' if you have a mic in your hand -- glad I was in this case.
I actually find myself in a position of having to do sound for a benefit for a inner city church at the end of the summer... and I need to build some more cabinets. Been working up a top design using HPL (like formica) for something a little better than a straight sided mid-high horn. hmm... seems like sawdust time again.
As far as bass steering? I thought this was a good read.
http://www.voidaudio.com/news/news_item.asp?NewsID=38
What I did was to place my reference mic at about a 45 degree angle to the front/side of the subs, play a 50hz sine wave, and start dialing in delay on the outside 2 subs, till I saw the spl start changing. When I could get 45 degree to the same level as straight on -- I stopped and called it good. It should be somewhere between 1-4 ms, depending on how wide you have your subs placed. I'm assuming you are not putting them in a line and bass steering, but rather have the mouths together currently, to get your mouth area up to the needed amount for labs. The advantage of the TH is that they are good to 40hz (in my case) with just a single cabinet, so you can line them up, and delay the outsides.
I actually find myself in a position of having to do sound for a benefit for a inner city church at the end of the summer... and I need to build some more cabinets. Been working up a top design using HPL (like formica) for something a little better than a straight sided mid-high horn. hmm... seems like sawdust time again.
As far as bass steering? I thought this was a good read.
http://www.voidaudio.com/news/news_item.asp?NewsID=38
What I did was to place my reference mic at about a 45 degree angle to the front/side of the subs, play a 50hz sine wave, and start dialing in delay on the outside 2 subs, till I saw the spl start changing. When I could get 45 degree to the same level as straight on -- I stopped and called it good. It should be somewhere between 1-4 ms, depending on how wide you have your subs placed. I'm assuming you are not putting them in a line and bass steering, but rather have the mouths together currently, to get your mouth area up to the needed amount for labs. The advantage of the TH is that they are good to 40hz (in my case) with just a single cabinet, so you can line them up, and delay the outsides.
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danielm:
Did some playing around with hornresp, and it appears that the dual flare box I'd built awhile back, still seems to come out pretty good in 4pi space. I've learned the hard way, to ALWAYS use 4pi when designing a top. Also as you stack, the response evens out, and is not near this lumpy.
Anyway, if you are interested, your beta 10's would do very well in this style cabinet. Notice the bump at 250hz, instead of 500hz... If you want more details, I can provide them. (or maybe don will be kind enough to draw this up in cad, like he did for the TH.)
What I have simmed is a dual driver cabinet, 24" cube. If you stack 4 cabinets high, that'll be 8 drivers, and 132db@1M, and with some nearfield line array propagation, well, these should carry pretty well. If you stack 6 cabinets high with all 12 of your drivers, that'll get you 135. That's rock concert level a long ways from the stacks.
Attached is the hornresp sims, and a pic of a single driver test cabinet. I started cutting out ply tonight to make some dual driver cabinets for my park pa gig later in the summer.
cabinet details:
Dual 10" top.
build 24" cube shell.
horn path, two flares
13" long x height, 20degree at horn throat, 25degree at other end
8" long 45 degree at front of cabinet, square against joining 25degree angle
Where above two boards meet is approx 6" from front and 6" from side.
horn throat/driver mounting baffle, is 12" by height, with 3.5" wide x 8" hole, driver centered over hole.
Note, rounding top and bottom of driver opening slightly, instead of square hole sounds better.
Ports can be either deep in horn (even on driver baffle) or toward front of horn. If ports are 'back in horn' it lowers cabinet tuning.
Best sound with subs+tops is with ports tuned to 80-95hz with tops crossed at 100hz.
Did some playing around with hornresp, and it appears that the dual flare box I'd built awhile back, still seems to come out pretty good in 4pi space. I've learned the hard way, to ALWAYS use 4pi when designing a top. Also as you stack, the response evens out, and is not near this lumpy.
Anyway, if you are interested, your beta 10's would do very well in this style cabinet. Notice the bump at 250hz, instead of 500hz... If you want more details, I can provide them. (or maybe don will be kind enough to draw this up in cad, like he did for the TH.)
What I have simmed is a dual driver cabinet, 24" cube. If you stack 4 cabinets high, that'll be 8 drivers, and 132db@1M, and with some nearfield line array propagation, well, these should carry pretty well. If you stack 6 cabinets high with all 12 of your drivers, that'll get you 135. That's rock concert level a long ways from the stacks.
Attached is the hornresp sims, and a pic of a single driver test cabinet. I started cutting out ply tonight to make some dual driver cabinets for my park pa gig later in the summer.
cabinet details:
Dual 10" top.
build 24" cube shell.
horn path, two flares
13" long x height, 20degree at horn throat, 25degree at other end
8" long 45 degree at front of cabinet, square against joining 25degree angle
Where above two boards meet is approx 6" from front and 6" from side.
horn throat/driver mounting baffle, is 12" by height, with 3.5" wide x 8" hole, driver centered over hole.
Note, rounding top and bottom of driver opening slightly, instead of square hole sounds better.
Ports can be either deep in horn (even on driver baffle) or toward front of horn. If ports are 'back in horn' it lowers cabinet tuning.
Best sound with subs+tops is with ports tuned to 80-95hz with tops crossed at 100hz.
Attachments
Thanks Jim.
Looks like that's a sim of the 55-1740 driver? http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/55-1740
Looks to be very close to the Beta 10.
http://www.eminence.com/proaudio_sp...il_link=BETA-10A&speaker_size=10&SUB_CAT_ID=2
I'm amazed there's not a big hole in the response from 800-3K using the piezos with this. Although, I don't know how I'm gonna fit my 2" HF in there without a huge front baffle.
This gets me wondering how a unity type horn would work with the 2" at the throat and a couple of Beta 10s coupled into holes on the sides. I suspect the 10s will be very upper end freq limited due to the chamber in front of the cone. Also, I don't see much low mids coming out of the holes. They would have to be small to get them within 1/4wl of the throat at xover.
Hmm... what to do with a big pile of Beta 10s...
Looks like that's a sim of the 55-1740 driver? http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/55-1740
Looks to be very close to the Beta 10.
http://www.eminence.com/proaudio_sp...il_link=BETA-10A&speaker_size=10&SUB_CAT_ID=2
I'm amazed there's not a big hole in the response from 800-3K using the piezos with this. Although, I don't know how I'm gonna fit my 2" HF in there without a huge front baffle.
This gets me wondering how a unity type horn would work with the 2" at the throat and a couple of Beta 10s coupled into holes on the sides. I suspect the 10s will be very upper end freq limited due to the chamber in front of the cone. Also, I don't see much low mids coming out of the holes. They would have to be small to get them within 1/4wl of the throat at xover.
Hmm... what to do with a big pile of Beta 10s...
Nice.
Ever measured the max output at 100hz from this box? I'm just afraid my betas are going to be displacement limited around there (90-150). A bigger horn is out of the question for me.
Another thought I had is to bury two betas in a 60-200hz BP enclosure and hope for enough gain. Then out front load one running 200-1Khz along side the HF.
Ever measured the max output at 100hz from this box? I'm just afraid my betas are going to be displacement limited around there (90-150). A bigger horn is out of the question for me.
Another thought I had is to bury two betas in a 60-200hz BP enclosure and hope for enough gain. Then out front load one running 200-1Khz along side the HF.
The 6" horn box has a modified version of BF's "melded array" of 3.5k piezo's. Basically goldwood piezos, cut and glued together to make an array.
I was skeptical, but as with all drivers, when there's a bunch of them, the response flattens out.
The monitor is also a cut array of piezo's.
I've been investigating for the last several months, trying to find the best/cheapest options that I can use for church's -- Hence the 55-2421 subwoofer horns, and the 55-1740 tops. (right now the 55-1740 is on sale for $19... now that's what I call cheap.)
I was skeptical, but as with all drivers, when there's a bunch of them, the response flattens out.
The monitor is also a cut array of piezo's.
I've been investigating for the last several months, trying to find the best/cheapest options that I can use for church's -- Hence the 55-2421 subwoofer horns, and the 55-1740 tops. (right now the 55-1740 is on sale for $19... now that's what I call cheap.)
Jim,
I just slapped together some OSB into a flare like your and placed it in front of a test box.
A quick swept sine wave looks/sounds promising. A peak around 200-250 and falling above 900hz. Roughly what your sim shows. It definately has more impact listening to drums.
If I get some time this weekend I'll take it outside and do some proper measurements.
BTW, I didn't find the MCM driver to be on sale.
I just slapped together some OSB into a flare like your and placed it in front of a test box.
A quick swept sine wave looks/sounds promising. A peak around 200-250 and falling above 900hz. Roughly what your sim shows. It definately has more impact listening to drums.
If I get some time this weekend I'll take it outside and do some proper measurements.
BTW, I didn't find the MCM driver to be on sale.
danielm:
On mcm, they are big on 'discount codes' somewhere I have a flier with the $19 price and code, but I don't see it right now. My summer catalog has 16sc06, which will get you $22.51 price, which is still pretty good. A vertical line of these cheap-o drivers really does more than you would think.
As to the HF roll off. Filling in between the driver and the baffle plate (look at my monitor picture) helps, as does a 2.5k 12db/oct LP filter on the woofer. I know this design is kinda lacking at 100-150hz, but with the overlap between the subs/tops at 100, this seems to integrate well with the tops coming on strong at 200. Also, if you run your port tuning up to 100hz, you'll minimize your excursion in that range and you can push a little harder.
On mcm, they are big on 'discount codes' somewhere I have a flier with the $19 price and code, but I don't see it right now. My summer catalog has 16sc06, which will get you $22.51 price, which is still pretty good. A vertical line of these cheap-o drivers really does more than you would think.
As to the HF roll off. Filling in between the driver and the baffle plate (look at my monitor picture) helps, as does a 2.5k 12db/oct LP filter on the woofer. I know this design is kinda lacking at 100-150hz, but with the overlap between the subs/tops at 100, this seems to integrate well with the tops coming on strong at 200. Also, if you run your port tuning up to 100hz, you'll minimize your excursion in that range and you can push a little harder.
maxmercy:
It's been awhile since I've seen your name pop up. (I'm unwelcome in BFM land, due to the indoor T36 spl chart measurement fiasco.) I do stop by every once in awhile anon, just to see what's going on. Told leland I'd help out hoovie -- hope his endeavor is successful.
No, I haven't posted pics of the finished stadium system -- I should really get permission from the school before I do. However, close your eyes, and imagine subs on top of the home side pressbox, that can project well enough to be felt in the opposing bleachers. That's a picture worth a thousand words...
PM me, if you want a pic.
It's been awhile since I've seen your name pop up. (I'm unwelcome in BFM land, due to the indoor T36 spl chart measurement fiasco.) I do stop by every once in awhile anon, just to see what's going on. Told leland I'd help out hoovie -- hope his endeavor is successful.
No, I haven't posted pics of the finished stadium system -- I should really get permission from the school before I do. However, close your eyes, and imagine subs on top of the home side pressbox, that can project well enough to be felt in the opposing bleachers. That's a picture worth a thousand words...
PM me, if you want a pic.
maxmercy said:
nope... really weird thing.. TH's seem to be very 'directional' which I know sounds nuts for a subwoofer. Most bass goes over the heads of those close up. The cheerleaders at grass level get as much bass as the guys that can touch the pressbox. In this scenario, the subs are literally 30' off of the ground, and it's their directionality that allows it to work. (I did have to spend a period of time vibration proofing the pressbox... amazing what fluorescent lights will do...) As far as anything else... it's quieter in the pressbox, that out -- so that works well too.
Search, or ask scott (screamersusa) about his experience with the kitchen staff and vibrating stuff off the shelves, that happened just by turning his TH's toward the kitchen. Scott has also realized they sound different on their side, vs standing up. (cue creepy Halloween music)
If you go behind the pressbox, you can hear ZERO bass. The TH's and the longer horn tops worked really well to keep the sound inside the stadium. I was also HIGHLY amazed at the directionality of the tops. During install, I found I had a severe slapback that was occurring from the concessions stand that was down past the endzone. A couple degrees of down angle, and the slapback disappeared. I mean it completely vanished... this kind of top and bass directionality is really spooky.
As for hometheater... forget it. This is purely a 40hz on up sub.
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