I agree with all your points , I will be more tactful in the heat of any future
"rant".
Your point of "in the current times" hit home as I was watching ABC news
about attacks on Asian - Americans.
So , thanks for bringing this to light. Sorry ...
I just received a Chinese made subwoofer filter kit ... All Nichicon/Wima caps
and real ST/TI semi's. A good deal , I even am impressed by the FR-4
board quality. Not the product of any "grifter". The "grifter" would be
POLK .... who sold me a 100w sub with a 30W amp in it.
Most marketers here in the US do not "redirect the buyer" any more.
As most consumers no longer redirect the company/marketers , they
assume all is disposable and needs to be updated.
I read this story - Sunfire True Subwoofer Signature - Help Needed | AVForums
If it is true , Bob Carver dropped out of the audio business in utter disgust.
The Sunfire subs are the real thing (below) ,(were) made in Washington st. ,
then they started using cheap (Asian) caps. Older Sunfire's survived , the ones
in the last few years of Carver all died . New Sunfires are the same POS
as POLK and others.
We lost some of the best people and quality in the audio world in the first
decades of the 21'st century. I fear where we will go in the next ten.
Maybe , we will have a bad "social credit score" if we do not update our
audio equiptment every 3 years.
The heck with trying to find good stuff - DIY it. I will (almost) have that
posted Sunfire Amp soon.
OS
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Like this -="https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-SKAR...-POWER-DUAL-4-OHM-CAR-SUBWOOFER/202175337528?
Skar audio - lying 1200w 2" VC with a big gap between magnet and VC.
Most likely 84db sens. 1200w my ar$e.
Versus a nice 150W peerless sub at 88db with 19hz resonance built into
a properly designed ported enclosure. A nice little BJT 120W amp would
do.... occasional peaks of 200W+ .
Some music genre's DO require this , listen to some Skrillex (club music).
I was using all 4 Sanken MT-200's (250W peaks) on each beat with a former
sub.
I "tapped" (but did not kill) a Dayton 12" sub with this same amp (@ 300w).
OS
This was my intent , not to make a slur.
I have (almost) had great catastrophe because of this issue.
Coffee maker burst into flames , (Asian) Pyle amp on fire.
No thermal fuse ?? I think we here on DIYA do better in the safety realm
than some OEM's.
I'll disassemble any imported new unit , just to preserve life.
I'm sure they won't smell the burnt flesh half way around the world.
OS
We only do safety better here on DIYA by a steady stream of warnings and by default. If left to our own devices (ok - lousy pun) the majority would buy the cheapest possible options for parts, hardware and circuitry but whine just the same about their smoke filled rooms, shocked visitors and family members, dead pets and constant RCD/ELCB power dropouts
Often, we buy the heavy items locally and this covers transformers, approved power cords, connectors and related mains and high voltage hardware that needs to meet local standards and this is what I mean by default. However, plenty of electronics also arrive at importer's warehouses via the "grey" market, where standards are as low as thought necessary to make quick sales and still avoid prosecution, safety to local standards or not.
Often, we buy the heavy items locally and this covers transformers, approved power cords, connectors and related mains and high voltage hardware that needs to meet local standards and this is what I mean by default. However, plenty of electronics also arrive at importer's warehouses via the "grey" market, where standards are as low as thought necessary to make quick sales and still avoid prosecution, safety to local standards or not.
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Welcome to the world of Name Brand over-priced cost-cutting JUNK.
My best friend bought a Polk 12" sub a few years ago....
The thing lasted about 2 years, moderate use.
Cheap, crappy SMPS power supply, cheap crappy amp too.
It sat in the closet for a few years.
About a year and a half ago, he gave it to me to see what could be done.
So..........
I tore out those worthless guts, and ordered a REAL sub amp from Apex Jr's website, opened up the mounting hold a bit, and worked my magic.
He's had it back now and not a problem since then, and says it sounds even better than new.
I'm quite sure that he'll have NO problems with it for a long long time.
Here's the before-after amps.
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Still got Jun Fu capacitors, even in that “ better” amp. This is the entire reason I absolutely hate powered speakers. All powered speakers. Nothing is immune to this anymore - even all the way up the very expensive pro audio chain. The “powered” counterpart to anything regardless of price point is never as good as what’s in a real amplifier. Even if it costs $4500.
The only pair of powered speakers I own are a pair of 6” KRK’s. Very gently used for computer speakers on the workbench and for studio work (up late at night mixing). Bi amped with chip amps. They were originally purchased as DJ monitors, but proved insufficient for that - I had to go back to using vocal wedges with Delta 10’s in them.
The only pair of powered speakers I own are a pair of 6” KRK’s. Very gently used for computer speakers on the workbench and for studio work (up late at night mixing). Bi amped with chip amps. They were originally purchased as DJ monitors, but proved insufficient for that - I had to go back to using vocal wedges with Delta 10’s in them.
I have worked for multi national companies that sourced products overseas — Asia and Eastern Europe, for cost cutting reasons. It all comes down to what is specified and what is stated in the quality requirements and at what cost.
Apple makes most of its phones in China. Under its control I do not think there is a perception that Apple phones are cheap junk units. It really is up to the brand owner to drive the end product quality level.
Apple makes most of its phones in China. Under its control I do not think there is a perception that Apple phones are cheap junk units. It really is up to the brand owner to drive the end product quality level.
Apple products also tend to beat the higher end of the price spectrum. Even if they don’t break, they expect you to be upgrading all the time. My IPad does the have enough power for anything other than internet entertainment, and my iPhone no longer does 4G because of frequency reallocation. But I only paid $75 for it and only use it for talk and text. When it does die, the replacement won’t be 5G compatible.
Hi
First, I wanted to apologise to ostripper for diverting the thread, although the sensitivity to intolerance is at an all-time high right now - that sounds like an oxymoron You are obviously a brilliant guy with electronic design and I admire your output.
When a corporation specifies a product to built elsewhere it is their deception to the customer; when you buy direct and find deception then it is the vendor. I buy a lot of stuff from China and it is all high quality. Hammond gets a lot of their smaller transformers manufactured in China but they meet or exceed Hammond's traditional quality levels.
The whole subwoofer issue is tainted by "home theatre" where the sub is mono and even is in the point-2 systems. The only advantage the latter has is in the potential to eliminate room standing waves by placing the two subs appropriately.
I said before that bass is directional and I meant to say that ALL bass is directional. So you really should have two subs if you want the best sound for music or for movies.
In your listening room, the first thing to do is make the room comfortable for Human conversation - not too dead, not too live, just right. Then use only a stereo playback system with two full-range speaker systems. The latter can be single boxes, or a sub-sat, but any "full-range group" should be actually grouped since the ideal is to have a point source for each acoustic source.
If you imagine standing in a field and you hear a helicopter to the right. First you hear the beats of the sonic booms from the tips of the prop, coming from the right, then you hear the engine noise. The whole sound image moves past you to the left, including the bass.
Now imagine the playback of this with one central sub and two satellite speakers. You hear the thumping right in front of you so you have no idea where the helicopter is - maybe it is coming straight towards you? Then you hear the engine noise to the right so you figure it is to the right. The engine noise moves past you to the left but the thumping still comes from in front of you. This is a weird helicopter !!
In a theatre, the focus is the picture screen. The size of the room is huge and quite an acoustic nightmare. The sonic experience is highly compromised but movie producers want their films to be well-watched and profitable. The theatre sound system at least has to be very good mono, and better if it is very good stereo. The Tomlinson Holman Experiement was just that, and it was interesting at first, but then went off the rails. Adding the centre speaker was good for maintaining audience focus. Adding some surround speakers was good for distributing sound in the awkwardly shaped room, but getting compromised by splitting audience focus. Adding the single sub up front was "okay" for the movie experience. The fact is, most of the audience does not have a good stereo experience let alone a surround-sound experience. Adding the second sub without giving the subs separate audio signals is highly questionable and I would call that a mistake.
With just stereo playback of movie sound, the decoder in your player or amp makes the composite stereo, so there will often be level compromises where the music is too loud compared to people talking. I think much of that has to do with the basic surround mix being poor to begin with. But... despite this issue stereo playback is much more appropriate in a home environment and will provide the most pleasing sound provided the two acoustic sources are set up as much like point-sources as possible.
My experience is like others here where I do not need much power. My speakers are 90dB/1W at 1m and I cannot stay in the room if it is anywhere near that loud. My real subs go to 13Hz so pipe organ low notes are reproduced accurately. Music mixes from pre-1980-ish are well balanced - drums sound like drums instead of flatulent thumps (a difference between old-style heads and hydraulic heads, but also a difference between production style, aka taste versus mass).
if you want good sound get a second sub and make sure you are able to adjust the relative level of the sub and the satellites.
First, I wanted to apologise to ostripper for diverting the thread, although the sensitivity to intolerance is at an all-time high right now - that sounds like an oxymoron
You are obviously a brilliant guy with electronic design and I admire your output.When a corporation specifies a product to built elsewhere it is their deception to the customer; when you buy direct and find deception then it is the vendor. I buy a lot of stuff from China and it is all high quality. Hammond gets a lot of their smaller transformers manufactured in China but they meet or exceed Hammond's traditional quality levels.
The whole subwoofer issue is tainted by "home theatre" where the sub is mono and even is in the point-2 systems. The only advantage the latter has is in the potential to eliminate room standing waves by placing the two subs appropriately.
I said before that bass is directional and I meant to say that ALL bass is directional. So you really should have two subs if you want the best sound for music or for movies.
In your listening room, the first thing to do is make the room comfortable for Human conversation - not too dead, not too live, just right. Then use only a stereo playback system with two full-range speaker systems. The latter can be single boxes, or a sub-sat, but any "full-range group" should be actually grouped since the ideal is to have a point source for each acoustic source.
If you imagine standing in a field and you hear a helicopter to the right. First you hear the beats of the sonic booms from the tips of the prop, coming from the right, then you hear the engine noise. The whole sound image moves past you to the left, including the bass.
Now imagine the playback of this with one central sub and two satellite speakers. You hear the thumping right in front of you so you have no idea where the helicopter is - maybe it is coming straight towards you? Then you hear the engine noise to the right so you figure it is to the right. The engine noise moves past you to the left but the thumping still comes from in front of you. This is a weird helicopter !!
In a theatre, the focus is the picture screen. The size of the room is huge and quite an acoustic nightmare. The sonic experience is highly compromised but movie producers want their films to be well-watched and profitable. The theatre sound system at least has to be very good mono, and better if it is very good stereo. The Tomlinson Holman Experiement was just that, and it was interesting at first, but then went off the rails. Adding the centre speaker was good for maintaining audience focus. Adding some surround speakers was good for distributing sound in the awkwardly shaped room, but getting compromised by splitting audience focus. Adding the single sub up front was "okay" for the movie experience. The fact is, most of the audience does not have a good stereo experience let alone a surround-sound experience. Adding the second sub without giving the subs separate audio signals is highly questionable and I would call that a mistake.
With just stereo playback of movie sound, the decoder in your player or amp makes the composite stereo, so there will often be level compromises where the music is too loud compared to people talking. I think much of that has to do with the basic surround mix being poor to begin with. But... despite this issue stereo playback is much more appropriate in a home environment and will provide the most pleasing sound provided the two acoustic sources are set up as much like point-sources as possible.
My experience is like others here where I do not need much power. My speakers are 90dB/1W at 1m and I cannot stay in the room if it is anywhere near that loud. My real subs go to 13Hz so pipe organ low notes are reproduced accurately. Music mixes from pre-1980-ish are well balanced - drums sound like drums instead of flatulent thumps (a difference between old-style heads and hydraulic heads, but also a difference between production style, aka taste versus mass).
if you want good sound get a second sub and make sure you are able to adjust the relative level of the sub and the satellites.
To wg_ski's point: Sure. To do this, Apple ensures the products are designed and manufactured to give a high quality feel that befits that image and it drives the factories to implement those quality levels.
And I am saying sometimes there are good reasons to find a lower cost supplier. I used to work for a company that makes x-ray machines. The boards were many many layers, EMI and SI controlled, loaded with high density parts and had to be extremely reliable. The cost of investing in a assembly line to make that would be large and not well utilized, given these x-ray machines are sold only by the hundreds each year. The company ended up using a manufacturer that used to (and may still) manufacture motherboards for Intel, among others, in China. This makes sense from component sourcing and scale perspective.
But if a manufacturer goes outsourcing with only cost in mind and trades design/component/assembly quality and safety off for cost, then garbage specs in, garbage products out...
And I am saying sometimes there are good reasons to find a lower cost supplier. I used to work for a company that makes x-ray machines. The boards were many many layers, EMI and SI controlled, loaded with high density parts and had to be extremely reliable. The cost of investing in a assembly line to make that would be large and not well utilized, given these x-ray machines are sold only by the hundreds each year. The company ended up using a manufacturer that used to (and may still) manufacture motherboards for Intel, among others, in China. This makes sense from component sourcing and scale perspective.
But if a manufacturer goes outsourcing with only cost in mind and trades design/component/assembly quality and safety off for cost, then garbage specs in, garbage products out...
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Oh, I didn't go into detail about some things, to keep my post shorter.
The "I worked my magic" part is the clue.
This PS caps were changed out to Nichicons. as were some others.
(As I've mention in some posts, I'm "picky", yet not obsessed.)
Also, I added a "sense-standby" board w/transformer, of my own design which kills AC to the main transformer until it detects audio.
Because the main transformer, even in standby/idle, drew 50 watts from AC.
My additional small standby board/transformer, draws only 2 watts AC - when it detects audio, it kicks on its relay, turning on the main transformer.
The standby circuit kills main AC after a 2.5 minute "no audio" delay.
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The B&W sub that Pete and I referenced earlier is fully manufactured in China incl. the electronic boards (woofer speaker I’m not certain - but everything else for sure). I was based in Asia (semiconductors) for 10 yrs and worked closely with Chinese manufacturers in consumer, lighting and computing. You get exactly what you specify. If you want a 50W amp for $15 you’ll find a supplier over there that will do it.
The prices on volume consumer product components are truly amazing. A 4700 50V cap in high volume goes for 15c (2012 prices). A 100 VA transformer under $3.
The incentive for Western suppliers to manufacture in China is huge. In 2002 we were supplying NE5532/34 in volume for under 10c. We bailed. 100A 2 mOhm mosfets were going for 18c a PAIR in 2014 (down from >$1 each in 2006).
In short, if you specify it right and work closely with the supplier you can get quality as good as anything anywhere else. If you throw a spec over the wall, remain hands-off and expect something high quality at the end of it you’ll probably be disappointed.
In the case of the bad subs discussed above, I’d lay the blame fairly and squarely at the foot of the brand owners. Did they spect it right? Design reviews? Factory audit? These products we’re probably picked up at some OEM audio show and simply rebranded.
You gets what you pay for
The prices on volume consumer product components are truly amazing. A 4700 50V cap in high volume goes for 15c (2012 prices). A 100 VA transformer under $3.
The incentive for Western suppliers to manufacture in China is huge. In 2002 we were supplying NE5532/34 in volume for under 10c. We bailed. 100A 2 mOhm mosfets were going for 18c a PAIR in 2014 (down from >$1 each in 2006).
In short, if you specify it right and work closely with the supplier you can get quality as good as anything anywhere else. If you throw a spec over the wall, remain hands-off and expect something high quality at the end of it you’ll probably be disappointed.
In the case of the bad subs discussed above, I’d lay the blame fairly and squarely at the foot of the brand owners. Did they spect it right? Design reviews? Factory audit? These products we’re probably picked up at some OEM audio show and simply rebranded.
You gets what you pay for
Hi
First, I wanted to apologise to ostripper for diverting the thread, although the sensitivity to intolerance is at an all-time high right now - that sounds like an oxymoron
When a corporation specifies a product to built elsewhere it is their deception to the customer; when you buy direct and find deception then it is the vendor. I buy a lot of stuff from China and it is all high quality. Hammond gets a lot of their smaller transformers manufactured in China but they meet or exceed Hammond's traditional quality levels.
The whole subwoofer issue is tainted by "home theatre" where the sub is mono and even is in the point-2 systems. The only advantage the latter has is in the potential to eliminate room standing waves by placing the two subs appropriately.
I said before that bass is directional and I meant to say that ALL bass is directional. So you really should have two subs if you want the best sound for music or for movies.
In your listening room, the first thing to do is make the room comfortable for Human conversation - not too dead, not too live, just right. Then use only a stereo playback system with two full-range speaker systems. The latter can be single boxes, or a sub-sat, but any "full-range group" should be actually grouped since the ideal is to have a point source for each acoustic source.
If you imagine standing in a field and you hear a helicopter to the right. First you hear the beats of the sonic booms from the tips of the prop, coming from the right, then you hear the engine noise. The whole sound image moves past you to the left, including the bass.
Now imagine the playback of this with one central sub and two satellite speakers. You hear the thumping right in front of you so you have no idea where the helicopter is - maybe it is coming straight towards you? Then you hear the engine noise to the right so you figure it is to the right. The engine noise moves past you to the left but the thumping still comes from in front of you. This is a weird helicopter !!
In a theatre, the focus is the picture screen. The size of the room is huge and quite an acoustic nightmare. The sonic experience is highly compromised but movie producers want their films to be well-watched and profitable. The theatre sound system at least has to be very good mono, and better if it is very good stereo. The Tomlinson Holman Experiement was just that, and it was interesting at first, but then went off the rails. Adding the centre speaker was good for maintaining audience focus. Adding some surround speakers was good for distributing sound in the awkwardly shaped room, but getting compromised by splitting audience focus. Adding the single sub up front was "okay" for the movie experience. The fact is, most of the audience does not have a good stereo experience let alone a surround-sound experience. Adding the second sub without giving the subs separate audio signals is highly questionable and I would call that a mistake.
With just stereo playback of movie sound, the decoder in your player or amp makes the composite stereo, so there will often be level compromises where the music is too loud compared to people talking. I think much of that has to do with the basic surround mix being poor to begin with. But... despite this issue stereo playback is much more appropriate in a home environment and will provide the most pleasing sound provided the two acoustic sources are set up as much like point-sources as possible.
My experience is like others here where I do not need much power. My speakers are 90dB/1W at 1m and I cannot stay in the room if it is anywhere near that loud. My real subs go to 13Hz so pipe organ low notes are reproduced accurately. Music mixes from pre-1980-ish are well balanced - drums sound like drums instead of flatulent thumps (a difference between old-style heads and hydraulic heads, but also a difference between production style, aka taste versus mass).
if you want good sound get a second sub and make sure you are able to adjust the relative level of the sub and the satellites.
I believe our hearing is not very sensitive to level and phase changes at low frequencies. There is some debate about the frequency where our ability to sense direction ceases, but it is generally accepted that crossing over a subwoofer with a steep filter( 4th order) at below 80 hz should prevent us from localizing it in most program material.
There are a couple of issues that can mess with that. One is using a sub that is too small and/or set too loud. The harmonic distortion components will be at a high level and at high enough frequencies to be localized. Also room modes can throw a wrench in the works. A 10db peak in the sub response at 100hz will contribute to making the sub audible.
In your helicopter analogy the localization will not come from the deep bass produced by a mono sub that is properly setup and operating at a level within it’s capabilities. The localization will come from the higher frequency components of the helicopter sound which will be reproduced by the L,R speakers. Providing the speakers and sub are able to produce these sounds in a linear manner, you should not experience the sound localizing to the sub.
Having the equipment (speakers, sub and amplifiers) that is up to the job of reproducing a helicopter or other loud sound effects at your desired level is the first hurdle to get over. Setup and attention to room modes is the next.
I have experimented extensively with subs in my own rooms for 20 years. I run 2 subs in mono with floor standing speakers crossed over at about 50hz. There is no localization that I can hear. I am running everything well within it’s linear envelope.
But for a famous name brand like polk/JBL/Altec ? And ... even at a
500$ > price point.
They are putting this junk into supposed "audiophile subs" and baiting/
grifting the consumer with the brand recognition.
This must be known to these companies managements , and to the
audiophiles who show these units at CES events .
OS
Some years ago while checking out a reply to a member of the UK public in relation to a certain very well known German DIY /
industrial electrical manufacturer as he had complained about the "quality dropping " of his bought product I managed to access a German forum for Electrical Engineers .
Two Production Engineers belonging to the said company were talking to one another. The second was bemoaning the fact he was sent to China to supervise a production line .
He made a comment that shocked me , he said ---- our product xxxxx was being manufactured here (China ) complete with stickers/labels saying "manufactured in Germany " not only was that being done but the EU "CE " label was being applied there .
The first engineer told him to "shut up if he valued his job " , some months later returning to the website all posts relating to the conversation had "disappeared ".
I don't think some people appreciate just how many complaints of--- it only lasted 6 months /12 months that the UK public are faced with- literally 1000,s of complaints continually and being fobbed off with --see the manufacturer -- wrong !
The Consumer Rights Act -2015 puts the onus directly on the Vendor guarantee or not that's why --to me at least this is a big issue .
Why should the UK be treated as a Third world dumping ground ?
industrial electrical manufacturer as he had complained about the "quality dropping " of his bought product I managed to access a German forum for Electrical Engineers .
Two Production Engineers belonging to the said company were talking to one another. The second was bemoaning the fact he was sent to China to supervise a production line .
He made a comment that shocked me , he said ---- our product xxxxx was being manufactured here (China ) complete with stickers/labels saying "manufactured in Germany " not only was that being done but the EU "CE " label was being applied there .
The first engineer told him to "shut up if he valued his job " , some months later returning to the website all posts relating to the conversation had "disappeared ".
I don't think some people appreciate just how many complaints of--- it only lasted 6 months /12 months that the UK public are faced with- literally 1000,s of complaints continually and being fobbed off with --see the manufacturer -- wrong !
The Consumer Rights Act -2015 puts the onus directly on the Vendor guarantee or not that's why --to me at least this is a big issue .
Why should the UK be treated as a Third world dumping ground ?
Could you share that circuit ?
I am "picky" too.
My sourcing isn't nationalistic in any way. I just bought a 10$ Antek 10VA
12-0-12 trafo for my Sub rebuild. Made in NJ - USA !!! Did I buy it because
of the USA factor ?? No, it is just a known quality company who I am sure
would mostly refund / replace it in a heartbeat.
Got it in 2 days , as well.
All my Audio uses these units , 200-300VA ones just have a 2W core loss.
I don't see why they would use EI's in a hot sub box. My Polk's "good cheers"
was quite hot to the touch ( and had brittle wires) ... just a few years old !!
Logitech also uses a toroid in their subs.
I am patiently waiting for my Aluminum plates from Utah.
OS
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