Hi, I'm considering to buy a second hand pair of Quad esl-63's. They sell for 350 euro's and their diaphragms need to be replaced.
I built five stats myself (linesources), but was never completely satisfied with the result, even though my latest ones have good sensitivity and operate (very) well, technically.
So I'm curious to do a comparison with my boxed diy speakers (ScanSpeak Event) and diy stats and a pair of Quads. I don't want to spend thousands of euro's on a recent new(er) Quad stat, so I'm considering to buy an old esl-63 and repair it myself. I was wondering if that will be a doable job? I would think it will take some time to learn the construction of the Quad, but I think thats a good thing, to learn new things. So can someone tell me if it will be a easy / moderate / difficult job to repace diaphragms of a Quad esl-63? And how about the electronics, I guess they need service sooner or later too. Is that a complicated job?
I built five stats myself (linesources), but was never completely satisfied with the result, even though my latest ones have good sensitivity and operate (very) well, technically.
So I'm curious to do a comparison with my boxed diy speakers (ScanSpeak Event) and diy stats and a pair of Quads. I don't want to spend thousands of euro's on a recent new(er) Quad stat, so I'm considering to buy an old esl-63 and repair it myself. I was wondering if that will be a doable job? I would think it will take some time to learn the construction of the Quad, but I think thats a good thing, to learn new things. So can someone tell me if it will be a easy / moderate / difficult job to repace diaphragms of a Quad esl-63? And how about the electronics, I guess they need service sooner or later too. Is that a complicated job?
Hi,
Done exactly that recently.
It is not a difficult job for a handy diyer, but it takes a very clean workspace, some room where bits can be stored for while and a large piece of glass (see photos), ideally a dining table. Consider it could bother your family life for a few days or weeks.
I can only recommend ER Audio repair kit, which I used, and was impressed with both the contents of the kit and Rob's constant support.
Proper rebuilding implies reglueing all stators - tedious work - and of course repairing damaged diaphragms. I invented a method to repair the loose stators without touching undamaged diaphragms.This can be seen in the photo album. It saves the unnecessary hassle of destroying a good diaphragm, thus a lot of time.
I must say it was a huge satisfaction when I powered on the first speaker after completing it and crystal clear music came out of it : Quad ESL 63 reassembled - YouTube (see neon flashing rate, indicative of a total absence of high voltage leaks). Second ESL63 was completed soon after, to my great enjoyment : Quad ESL 63 - second speaker completed - YouTube
I am extremely happy with the result. My ESL63s sound as good as new, maybe better since I think improved a bit the input network a little.
You shall be aware that when glueing the diaphragms you'll have only one try. Any mistake or error will need redoing everything from start, not funny at all. Restoring ESL63s is not for the faint hearted.
I hope it helps.
Thierry
Done exactly that recently.
It is not a difficult job for a handy diyer, but it takes a very clean workspace, some room where bits can be stored for while and a large piece of glass (see photos), ideally a dining table. Consider it could bother your family life for a few days or weeks.
I can only recommend ER Audio repair kit, which I used, and was impressed with both the contents of the kit and Rob's constant support.
Proper rebuilding implies reglueing all stators - tedious work - and of course repairing damaged diaphragms. I invented a method to repair the loose stators without touching undamaged diaphragms.This can be seen in the photo album. It saves the unnecessary hassle of destroying a good diaphragm, thus a lot of time.
I must say it was a huge satisfaction when I powered on the first speaker after completing it and crystal clear music came out of it : Quad ESL 63 reassembled - YouTube (see neon flashing rate, indicative of a total absence of high voltage leaks). Second ESL63 was completed soon after, to my great enjoyment : Quad ESL 63 - second speaker completed - YouTube
I am extremely happy with the result. My ESL63s sound as good as new, maybe better since I think improved a bit the input network a little.
You shall be aware that when glueing the diaphragms you'll have only one try. Any mistake or error will need redoing everything from start, not funny at all. Restoring ESL63s is not for the faint hearted.
I hope it helps.
Thierry
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All 4 panels should be double sided taped together tightly and the alumium bracket
that holds them should either replaced with a much thicker one or the middle section
should be built out to attach to the vertical chassis sides
There is considerable movement in the center area even with not necessarily loud music
As far as trying to repair a loose stator with a good diaphragm which is what everyone wants to do, you would have to glue the entire area rather than just sections that are loose.
Your talking about what, a 35 to 40 year old speaker now and sections that appear tight are just waiting to come loose. Obviously it can be done as shown and looks like he’s satisfied
which is what we want for our hard work.
Even if you can repair some exsisting panels, the ones that need new mylar and a different coating , it’s possible to have different frequency response swings and impulse response variations amongst the other stock panels .
Your best bet is to completely redue all panels so they source and sink equally and you won’t have to go back in there again for another 25 years.
If you can totally repair one panel you can do the rest also and is your best bet.
Regards
David
that holds them should either replaced with a much thicker one or the middle section
should be built out to attach to the vertical chassis sides
There is considerable movement in the center area even with not necessarily loud music
As far as trying to repair a loose stator with a good diaphragm which is what everyone wants to do, you would have to glue the entire area rather than just sections that are loose.
Your talking about what, a 35 to 40 year old speaker now and sections that appear tight are just waiting to come loose. Obviously it can be done as shown and looks like he’s satisfied
which is what we want for our hard work.
Even if you can repair some exsisting panels, the ones that need new mylar and a different coating , it’s possible to have different frequency response swings and impulse response variations amongst the other stock panels .
Your best bet is to completely redue all panels so they source and sink equally and you won’t have to go back in there again for another 25 years.
If you can totally repair one panel you can do the rest also and is your best bet.
Regards
David
Which I obviously did, who would want to redo such a boring job a few months or years later ?
No, not if the diaphragm tension and the coating have been done properly. Not the tiniest difference was dicernable between panels. If a panel doen't sound exactlty the same as an untouched and working one, then something was done wrong. ER Audio's coating is working perfectly (they supply main ESL service shops with it, like OTA), same for the polyurethane glue, which is a specific OEM formulation for ER Audio. Consistent and correct diaphragm tension are crucial of course.
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I can’t see a good reason why they choose a floppy mid section since a simple bracket
coming off the side chassis rails would have been an easy cure to stiffened the whole assembly.
I used wood poplar blocks to bring it out to the bracket and looking back on it should have replaced the panel brackets with thicker aluminum.
I,ll bet a spectral decay plot would show a slight improvement since most of this movement occurs right in the middle of the mid/upper frequency delay ring distribution and looking at various plots over the years, not exactly clean and fast decays
Regards
David
coming off the side chassis rails would have been an easy cure to stiffened the whole assembly.
I used wood poplar blocks to bring it out to the bracket and looking back on it should have replaced the panel brackets with thicker aluminum.
I,ll bet a spectral decay plot would show a slight improvement since most of this movement occurs right in the middle of the mid/upper frequency delay ring distribution and looking at various plots over the years, not exactly clean and fast decays
Regards
David
I added much stiffer aluminum bracket when I completely rebuilt my 988's. I was amazed by how much the panel assembly flexed. The extra stiffness really improved the speakers without causing any harness. At least with my ARC tube stuff.
My theory is that the 63's were designed when there were a lot of really bad solid state amps in use. I remember listening to systems and worrying that my ears were going to bleed from the bright sound. Maybe the damping was to take away some of the harsh edges in the music played on these amps.
My theory is that the 63's were designed when there were a lot of really bad solid state amps in use. I remember listening to systems and worrying that my ears were going to bleed from the bright sound. Maybe the damping was to take away some of the harsh edges in the music played on these amps.
Speaking of that floppy angle bracket, the 989's with their 6 panels on one long bracket are so floppy that the panels will hit the dust cover in shipping and often damage it. I reinforce the midpoint using a 1/2" standoff from the bracket to the outside extrusion and that makes everything MUCH more rigid.
I suspect that in practice it would be difficult to measure an improvement due to the high mass and low driving force of the diaphragm. And as frequencies go up where there is less and less of the panels being driven (and thus the floppiness in the middle would make a bigger difference), the excursion is going down, and the rolloff due to the mass is more and more effective. So this is one of those things that should be better (like the very early 63 side extrusions), but in reality doesn't make an audible or measurable difference. But in the case of the 989, makes a huge difference for reliability because it stops the panels from poking holes in the dust covers.
Sheldon
I suspect that in practice it would be difficult to measure an improvement due to the high mass and low driving force of the diaphragm. And as frequencies go up where there is less and less of the panels being driven (and thus the floppiness in the middle would make a bigger difference), the excursion is going down, and the rolloff due to the mass is more and more effective. So this is one of those things that should be better (like the very early 63 side extrusions), but in reality doesn't make an audible or measurable difference. But in the case of the 989, makes a huge difference for reliability because it stops the panels from poking holes in the dust covers.
Sheldon
Hi again,
it has been a while since I considered buying a set of Quad ESL 63 which need service and do the servicing by myself.
As I'm not particularly interested in doiing a Quad ESL repair, for a little more money I can buy a set which should be well functioning, according to the adverts texts. It seems that for about 600-800 euros one can get a secondhand pair which should operate well according to the second hand advertisements.
I'm just wondering if this is a risky product to buy as it feels like there's a good change the product will get problems sooner or later (especially the diaphragms). The main reason for buying would be to have them in home to be able to extensively test and compare them to my DIY stats.
Or should I choose a different model like the 989 or 2912? (if affordable)
it has been a while since I considered buying a set of Quad ESL 63 which need service and do the servicing by myself.
As I'm not particularly interested in doiing a Quad ESL repair, for a little more money I can buy a set which should be well functioning, according to the adverts texts. It seems that for about 600-800 euros one can get a secondhand pair which should operate well according to the second hand advertisements.
I'm just wondering if this is a risky product to buy as it feels like there's a good change the product will get problems sooner or later (especially the diaphragms). The main reason for buying would be to have them in home to be able to extensively test and compare them to my DIY stats.
Or should I choose a different model like the 989 or 2912? (if affordable)
I have used a pair of allegedly refurbed 988s for almost 10 years now. Only once was there a buzz. Probably a bug that got electrocuted.
The later models have had panel problems, seems that is solved now. Or?
Some have claimed that the increase in HT to increase the sensitivity increased the number of failed panels. It has been suggested to change a resistor in the bridge preceding the HT. Don't recall if it was 68k to 82 kr or the opposite way.
The later models have had panel problems, seems that is solved now. Or?
Some have claimed that the increase in HT to increase the sensitivity increased the number of failed panels. It has been suggested to change a resistor in the bridge preceding the HT. Don't recall if it was 68k to 82 kr or the opposite way.
IMHO you can't buy a set of Quad ESL-63 at that price that "operates well". Whatever that means.
According to the adds on Marktplaats all of the sound great, operate well and have been refurbished by the best. But still they are for sale. Makes you wonder.
Also there is no use in buying a set like that and use them as a reference to compare to your DIY stats, simply because they wont play even close to spec.
Moving to 6 panels speakers from China makes the problem even bigger, as the build quality is poorer.
Risky product? Yes sure. Diaphragm? No, not at all, they only fail because of the stators coming loose.
It is all the glue used that fails over the years due to age, UV, vibrations etc. etc.
Quad decreased the HT from 5,2 kV to 4,2 KV. I don't know there was an increase at any point in time.
"A bug that got electrocuted" That is hilarious IMHO as the Quad's are 99% sealed from the outside with dust covers. That must have been a very clever bug that got in there.
I have to agree with wout. Having just completely rebuilt a pair of ESL-63s I wouldn't trust anyone but an experienced professional or hobbyist. There is too much too go wrong. If it was me I would get an original and untouched pair that was rattling and hissing and rebuild it myself. Its a few weeks of work but at least I know what was done and what needs to be done.
Regards,
kffern
Regards,
kffern
And still when going to the "specialists" you are at great risk of buying a set that is way below par as I have experienced the hard way.
Several years ago I had my ESl-63's completely redone by a very renown repair company at a high price (I hesitated and saved for years to have it done).
When they came home and I had my first listen, I knew I was screwed as they sounded horrible. I was in tears, and not of joy.
That is because I'm not a person that accepts them to just play again. I want them to sing again and perform at the best they were designed for.
I would say that only semi professional hobbyists that have done a lot of good research, have years of practice and experience maybe can do the job properly.
There is way too much time involved for a 100% commercial company to do the work properly and at a reasonable price. You can be more than 100% sure that they take short cuts to reduce price and increase profit.
My advice: Before buying, do extensive listening with a set rebuild by your preferred rebuilder, preferably at your own home (demo set), in you own acoustic environment with your own equipment.
Having refurbed a few sets now - the ER audio kit is excellent and what I would recommend. My 2c is to buy a cheap set with failed panels and complete repanel the speakers, and do the EHT boards while you are at it. You will then have a known good set of 63s that will last you years and years. And when they do eventually break, then you have the knowledge and experience to just go and fix them yourself. You are better off buying that broken set a 250e and doing this, than spending 800e on a set where you don't know the status of them.
Tweaking by adding stiffness can all come later when you've got them singing. Same with the input filter, dustcovers and so on. You will need access to a clean area (the not frequently used dining room table is a good choice and there is a few bits you need to make - a glass panel for stretching mylar and glue up, some weights, distilled water, a piece of plywood to help with glue up etc. Smaller items you also need are a soldering iron, stanley knife, scraper and misc tools.
The joy of hearing them sing and being able to fix anything that should go wrong with them is sweet.
Tweaking by adding stiffness can all come later when you've got them singing. Same with the input filter, dustcovers and so on. You will need access to a clean area (the not frequently used dining room table is a good choice and there is a few bits you need to make - a glass panel for stretching mylar and glue up, some weights, distilled water, a piece of plywood to help with glue up etc. Smaller items you also need are a soldering iron, stanley knife, scraper and misc tools.
The joy of hearing them sing and being able to fix anything that should go wrong with them is sweet.
The ER audio kit is good advise for the DIY'er (which is why we are all here, right?), it contains all the stuff you need to rebuild your panels. It does not contain anything for refurbishing the electronics, but strangely those british electronics are remarkably reliable. I use similar materials (although not exact) and similar techniques, and when done properly the ER kit results in excellent performance. Expect to spend a lot of hours on the rebuild. It's not super tricky or anything, but it is involved. Rebuilding a set of panels for the first time can take 20-40 hours.
As for finding a set of "working" ESL-63's. It's certainly possible, and there were limited serial number ranges that seem to be quite reliable, but remember we are talking about speakers that are 35-40 years old now. Odds are not in your favor that after all those years, the speakers are working exactly like they did when they were new.
wout31 - Sorry to hear that you had a bad experience with getting your speakers rebuilt. A good rebuilder should make that right or refund your money. If it was me that did that work, please PM me.
Sheldon
As for finding a set of "working" ESL-63's. It's certainly possible, and there were limited serial number ranges that seem to be quite reliable, but remember we are talking about speakers that are 35-40 years old now. Odds are not in your favor that after all those years, the speakers are working exactly like they did when they were new.
wout31 - Sorry to hear that you had a bad experience with getting your speakers rebuilt. A good rebuilder should make that right or refund your money. If it was me that did that work, please PM me.
Sheldon
Hi Sheldon,
No, it was not you, it was in Europe.
Of course I went back to the company that rebuild them and they took them back to do them again.
Second time around, they sounded even worse. They wanted to do it again, but by then I had lost confidence totally as you can imagine.
Asked them if the didn't measure and check before they left the plant. Never got a proper answer and a refund was refused. Took my loss and went elsewhere.
I'm the company that did the bad job very grateful, as it made me buy a cheap set, take them apart and started learning.
That was 6 years ago now, and I'm still enjoying the hobby very very much and still learning and discovering every day.
My admiration for Peter Walker's designs has grown over the years. Yes, they have their flaws, but also a lot of very strong points.